Excellent Discussion on OSAS
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
civic
Active Member
And thats not the only passage in the discussion. Who are those in Hebrews 6 or Galatians 3 ? Both Hebrews and Galatians are addressed to brothers/sisters- believers.
The Rogue Tomato
Active Member
Hebrews 6: After going on about the problem of falling away, he says this by comparison, "9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation."
Seabass
Active Member
The guy speaks about apostates at about the 4 minute mark and claims if one leaves the Christian faith then he does not know if that person was ever really saved to begin with. Their walking away reveals something he could not see, that being, they are backsliden but still saved or they were never really saved.
1) I am not familiar where the Bible teaches the idea of backsliden person who remained saved (Jer 2:19; 3:22; 8:5). The Hebrew epistle is a warning to Hebrew converts about leaving Christianity and backsliding into Judaism again. Nothing indicates they will still be saved by leaving Christianity and backsliding into Judaism for the context of Hebrews indicates they would become lost due to that backsliding...."Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Heb 4:11. Backsliding leads to loss of salvation due to falling as a result of unbelief.
2)
apostate - apostasia
from Biblehub.com: 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Apostasy means a change of position or location. The word fall also carries the idea of change of position or location. If I fall from a tree upon the ground then I left a previous position in the tree to a different position on the ground.
1 Cor 10:12 take heed lest ye fall from Greek pipto
Thayer - descent from a higher place to a lower; to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost; fall from a state of uprightness.
So as far as a person leaving the Christian faith indicating they were never really saved:
one cannot leave something they were never part of, I cannot leave a room if I was never in the room. Hence one cannot leave the faith if he was never in the faith. If I was always lost and never saved then I cannot fall from salvation that I never had, I cannot fall from a faith I never possessed. One cannot fall from uprightness if he was never upright.
At least 2 logical conclusions can be drawn from falling
1) one cannot fall from a position they were never in...one cannot fall from a tree he was never in just as one cannot fall grace if he were never in grace.
2) one cannot fall into something they already are in....one cannot fall into condemnation if one already is in condemnation...a fallen person cannot fall for he already is fallen.
www.biblword.net
The above link claims from Heb 6 that backsliding/falling away is only "hypothetical", falling away is not real or actual. Yet the context states speaks of those who already have fallen away; "have fallen away" ESV; "and then fell away" ASV; "and having fallen away" YLT
The Hebrew writer is not dealing in hypotheticals but actually speaking of those who already have fallen away.
1) I am not familiar where the Bible teaches the idea of backsliden person who remained saved (Jer 2:19; 3:22; 8:5). The Hebrew epistle is a warning to Hebrew converts about leaving Christianity and backsliding into Judaism again. Nothing indicates they will still be saved by leaving Christianity and backsliding into Judaism for the context of Hebrews indicates they would become lost due to that backsliding...."Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief." Heb 4:11. Backsliding leads to loss of salvation due to falling as a result of unbelief.
2)
apostate - apostasia
from Biblehub.com: 646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
Apostasy means a change of position or location. The word fall also carries the idea of change of position or location. If I fall from a tree upon the ground then I left a previous position in the tree to a different position on the ground.
1 Cor 10:12 take heed lest ye fall from Greek pipto
Thayer - descent from a higher place to a lower; to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost; fall from a state of uprightness.
So as far as a person leaving the Christian faith indicating they were never really saved:
one cannot leave something they were never part of, I cannot leave a room if I was never in the room. Hence one cannot leave the faith if he was never in the faith. If I was always lost and never saved then I cannot fall from salvation that I never had, I cannot fall from a faith I never possessed. One cannot fall from uprightness if he was never upright.
At least 2 logical conclusions can be drawn from falling
1) one cannot fall from a position they were never in...one cannot fall from a tree he was never in just as one cannot fall grace if he were never in grace.
2) one cannot fall into something they already are in....one cannot fall into condemnation if one already is in condemnation...a fallen person cannot fall for he already is fallen.
Backsliding, lost forever?
In this piece we look at whether people who fall back into sin are lost forever. Or that there is still salvation for them.
www.biblword.net
The Hebrew writer is not dealing in hypotheticals but actually speaking of those who already have fallen away.
Last edited:
mailmandan
Active Member
Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Allow me to explain why:
First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.
*IN CONTRAST TO Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with perseverance. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with perseverance.
*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved either.
John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.
Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead, children of the devil.
Dizerner
Active Member
Excellent point.
And Christ promised all who believe have eternal life.
Yet we see the person falling away—an unsaved person has nothing to fall away from.
mailmandan
Active Member
Not all belief is the same (compare James 2:19 with Acts 16:31). In both verses the Greek word for "believe" is "pisteuo" yet the demons are not saved. The rocky ground hearer fell away from a shallow, temporary belief (emotional response) that had no root and produced no fruit. Faith without works is dead. Unlike the seed that fell on good ground which represents those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit. Only the seed that fell on good ground resulted in a renewed spiritual life in the person.
Foster
Active Member
If our salvation depends on anything but the finished work of Christ on the cross, we are in trouble. Or, at best, we run the risk of being in trouble. If you and I have any part in maintaining our salvation, it will be difficult to live with much assurance. Hope, yes; assurance, no.
Yet John wrote an entire epistle to assure a group of people, people he was not even around to observe, that they were in fact saved:
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13
I have found the best way to live out my salvation is to abide in Christ.
Yet John wrote an entire epistle to assure a group of people, people he was not even around to observe, that they were in fact saved:
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13
I have found the best way to live out my salvation is to abide in Christ.
Dizerner
Active Member
We should have as much confidence and assurance as we have commitment to Christ and no less.
We could always sin more than we did today—we have that free will, that is not taken away from us.
And so we see abiding in Christ is not throwing off all restraint and considering ourselves safe no matter what.
God's grace does ask things of us, and our confidence is in knowing God does not ask what we cannot do.
We could always sin more than we did today—we have that free will, that is not taken away from us.
And so we see abiding in Christ is not throwing off all restraint and considering ourselves safe no matter what.
God's grace does ask things of us, and our confidence is in knowing God does not ask what we cannot do.
Foster
Active Member
My observation has been that the more a person focuses on himself, the less he is able to keep his life in order. On the other hand, the more an individual focuses on Christ, the easier it becomes to allow Him to control every area of life. Abide in Christ.
If our salvation is not secure, how could Jesus say about those to whom He gives eternal life? “and they shall never perish” John 10:28
If even one man receives eternal life and then forfeits it through sin or apostasy, will they not perish? And by doing so, do they not make Jesus’ words a lie?
If our salvation is not secure, how could Jesus say about those to whom He gives eternal life? “and they shall never perish” John 10:28
If even one man receives eternal life and then forfeits it through sin or apostasy, will they not perish? And by doing so, do they not make Jesus’ words a lie?
Foster
Active Member
Most of the people I encounter who do not believe in eternal security are unclear about exactly how and when one loses salvation. By that I mean, they are not sure what it takes to lose it—they are just sure you can! One guy told me, “I know God is merciful, but He is not a fool.”
In other words, he was saying there must come a point when God says, “Enough is enough!” For most, if not all, proponents of this view, that point is very illusive and undefined.
In other words, he was saying there must come a point when God says, “Enough is enough!” For most, if not all, proponents of this view, that point is very illusive and undefined.
Dizerner
Active Member
It doesn't matter if we don't know the line. It's just a red herring fallacy.
If you know there is a cliff edge, do you drive as close or as far as you can from it?
"But I don't know exactly where the edge is, I just know the direction..."
Okay. Go ahead and live dangerously if you want.
If you know there is a cliff edge, do you drive as close or as far as you can from it?
"But I don't know exactly where the edge is, I just know the direction..."
Okay. Go ahead and live dangerously if you want.
civic
Active Member
Dizerner
Active Member
civic
Active Member
Where ?
Similar threads
