Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

I disagree.

He was told to rejoice his name was written in the Lamb's book of life and that one of twelve thrones awaited him.

God would not empower a sinner and traitor with apostolic authority to cast out demons, to do miracles and preach the Gospel.

30 The man answered and said to them, "Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from;
yet He has opened my eyes!
31 "Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him.
32 "Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind.
33 "If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing." (Jn. 9:30-33 NKJ)

Um no

Jesus said he was chosen for that very purpose to do what he did

there is no evidence Judas ever did anything. Remember Judas went out with another person

Judas was a sinner from the beginning

now unless you believe a man living in sin can be saved.. (which so many here appose)

you can not admit Judas was saved

 

[Red Baker]

There is no difference, according to God's Judgment as shown in the Bible, between drinking blood, eating maggots or eating swine's flesh, fornication, idolatry, eating animals that die of itself, or strangled etc.

You are very deceitful in lumping sins such sins as fornication, idolatry, with drinking blood, eating maggots, which I know of no one that would ever do such a gross thing, and eating animals that die of itself, or strangled etc..

But eating well cooked pork is not an sinful acts before God, to think so is to bring Judaism into Christianity which the apostles never did, and even when Peter lapse into being fearful of certain brethren, that believed yet cling to the Jews' rellgion and would not let it go, Paul rose up and rebuked Peter to his face before all people.

We are instructed by God to "Abstain" from such behavior.

Not from eating such "food source" that was found on the plate in Acts 10!

If the Gentiles in Acts 15 were accustomed to the tradition of eating swine's flesh, instead of drinking blood, Paul would have told them to "Abstain from eating swine's flesh", which is instruction from the Same God in the Same Book through the Same Chose Prophet of God.

Of course they were accustomed eating pork.

Matthew 8:32​

“And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.”

The apostles were not promoting "their own" judgments here were they when they directed the Gentiles who turned to God, to "Abstain" from what God defined as Sinful practices"?? They were promoting God's Judgments. You can find God's judgments when you become a "Doer" of the Christ's Sayings, and "Seek the righteousness of God", like Paul did.

This is simply the "milk" of the Word, and undeniably true.

You are being deceitful in your post, by using so many logical fallacies ~ Whatever they clearly mentioned is to be avoided, yet no man has the right to add his private convictions into the scriptures which you are attempting to do.

@Studyman, no problem with me if you think you should avoid pork for whatever reason, it matter not to me, yet, you cannot teach it as a commandment to be avoided by other believers, that's adding your commandments to the scriptures and we will not sit idley by and allow you to do so.

But you are omitting the most important part of Paul's teaching here.

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 "Speaking lies in hypocrisy"; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

So in your religion, is God's Word the seducing spirit? Why did the Apostles tell the Gentiles to "Abstain" from consuming the blood of beasts? Was this their own Judgment? Or were they promoting the Words of God Jesus said to Live by?

Please answer this question.

There you go again, being deceitful. Of course God's word is NOT a seducing spirit! Why would you even ask taht unless you do so just to confuse the reader, which most likely you failed? Now, you tell me WHAT part of 1st Timothy 4:1,2 I'm I missing? You are one confused person, and truly not even a good debater.

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created "to be received" with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

According to the rebellious Jews, it was a Sin to serve milk and meat on the same table, or eat bread without first washing their hands a certain way. (And many other such things they do) It was a Sin for a Jew to marry someone that wasn't born with a certain DNA. God's Law doesn't teach any of these things.

Okay but what dos this have to do with what we are discussing? Nothing.

Where did God say HE created animal blood "to be received to eat, with thanksgiving"?

No where ~ and never have I said so, so why even bring thsi up?

Or where did God ever say HE created Swine's flesh "to be received with thanksgiving"?

Well now, you just quoted the scripture, how blind can one be!

1 Timothy 4:4​

“For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:”

Post Calvary ~laws under the New Covenant permits us to eat all things If it be receded with thanksgiving. It is NOT what goes in a man that defiles him, but what comes form his heart. Mark 7

Lev. 17: 10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

Lev. 1: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth. 7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

These are dietary laws given to Israel only which were done away with at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, per Acts 10.
We will not allow you to mix Judaism with Christ's religion and not say a word. Not on our watch.

The Jesus "of the Bible" Lived by These Words, and instructed me to "Live by" these Words as well. Have you been convinced by someone, that these Words are spoken by "seducing spirits", and are "doctrines of devils";

He was born a Jew UNDER THE LAW and yes he did live by Moses' law. You said:

"These Words, and instructed me to "Live by" these Words as well." You must rightly divide eh word of truth and know which commandment are for Israel only and which are for all of man kind. I could spend a lot of time right here, and will if you desire me to do so. But, we allow the NT to tell us what commandment's were limited to Israel only, and only until the true Lamb of God should come, and then many other laws they the Jews' practiced in their rellgion died when Christ died and rose again. The laws summed up in the Ten commandments are ever enforce as a standard to live by only, not to lie life by doing them, for that's impossible. You said again:

"Have you been convinced by someone, that these Words are spoken by "seducing spirits", and are "doctrines of devils"...Yes, by Paul concerning your teachings!

Yes, of coarse, Every Creature, "which God hath created to be received" with thanksgiving is Good. "For it is sanctified "by the word of God" and prayer.”

But God did not create "swine" to be received as food. Or snails, or snakes, or dogs etc.

Does it matter, I think each person will make that determination for themselves. But the reason why I reply to your posts, is not because you eat pork, but because you wrangle Paul's teaching to justify your rejection of God's Judgments.

He is not teaching that God's Laws are "seducing spirits", and are "doctrines of devils".

He is not teaching that God's Laws are NOT Holy, Just and Good.

But that is the very foundation of your teaching. That God's Laws are "Beggarly Elements" , "rudiments of this world" and a "Yoke of Bondage".

It seems prudent to show this to others, so they too, might Take Heed of such a religious philosophy.

Yes, he created swine's to be eaten if one enjoys meat lover Pizza, which I like, with a cold beer in the hot summer months; I like Pork chops, barbecue, I was raised poor, I'll eat anything put before me, well most things that the average person eats. No, we do not eat slugs, snakes, alligators, cats and dogs; etc, but, it is a personal thing with me, not religious, somethings I just cannot stomach. Enough for now.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What I DO see is a person that has come to some conclusion about works and OSAS...both wrong, BTW,,,,and who will wiggle his way out of verses that DO NOT SUPPORT his cause any which way he can.

And with that...
'night.

Just to be honest sis

I see this in you.

This is not a very good way to discuss the word. When you say something that can said back to you. it is a useless argument and typically makes the person doing it appear hypocritical

 

[Jim]

Oh the irony. You filter scripture through the lens of works-righteousness which explains your eisegesis. I properly harmonize scripture with scripture (hermeneutics) before reaching my conclusion on doctrine (2 Timothy 2:15) and I squirm around nothing. You just don't understand.

Spoken like a true arrogant narcissist. Everyone filters scripture through the lens of their own self-righteous theological views.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

They're the ones that are growing while Christianity is dying.
BTW,,,,the young who join a church want a church that teaches old-fashioned morality...
that includes good works.

they are not growing.

they have always been huge.

satan has always inserted a legalistic mindset. a mindset that tells the human to say Hey God look at me, see what I did.

It started with Cain.

It was huge is judaism

it is huge today in both Islam and in Catholicism.

its one thing to teach morality in a church, its a far other thing to teach that our moral choices we do or do not do have a say in our eternity.

that was already set in stone.. and when we committed our first immoral choice, we earned our condemned state..

YOUR marriage has not yet happened?
So you're working TOWARD it?
All the more reason to make your spouse happy.

the marraige supper of the lamb is a future event

Please read the word.

Did YOUR father expect nothing from you?

Would my father kick me out of his family if I do not do what he said?

Could he make me not be his natural son even if he did?

His blood is in my viens I will always be his son.

Just like Jesus blood purchased me, and I will always be his son.

as for what he expects. He gave me things to do. warned me not to do things. If I obeyed, he blessed me, when I disobeyed, he chastened me

sounds exactly like what God said he would do.

Was that helpful in your becoming an adult?

well he let my brother and sister get away with anything, never corrected them. and treated them like they never did anythign wrong.

Both of them are basically homeless. so yeah, As God helped me in my christian life by not allowing me to walk all over him. My faith did the same.

Who said God will kick you out if you don't do EVERYTHING He asks you?

those who say salvation can be lost.

Are you Jesus?

But Jesus did give a lesson on this:

The Two Son......which one did THE WILL OF THE FATHER?

Matthew 21:28-32
28 "But what do you think? A man had two sons, and he came to the first and said, 'Son, go work today in the vineyard.'
29 "And he answered, 'I will not'; but afterward he regretted it and went.
30 "The man came to the second and said the same thing; and he answered, 'I will, sir '; but he did not go.
31 "Which of the two did the will of his father?" They said, "The first." Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.
32 "For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.


As we all should be if God's Kingdom is to be expanded.
And for the good of all humanity.

There WERE NO FREE GRACE persons in Jesus' time.

lol. This term in itself is a misnomer

grace is basically mercy given that is not deserved. While it is not free. it is payed for by the giver.

if costs the one who receives it nothing..

But it causes the one who recieved it to shout for Joy, to change his life. To love the person for who it is given, if they truly experience it.

This concept did not enter the church until the 1800's.
It's a belief that NEVER existed in the church.

Actually it did

it was just shut down by the power of Rome for for far to many years.. And had to go underground because anyone who taught it would have been martyred or imprisoned or cast out.

I do not know which is worse. your pro catholic leaning, or your anti calvin leaning. sadly. its almost like you have 2 strikes against you when it comes to Gods promise concerning those who are his children

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Two faulty ways of arguing OSAS:

1. God is exactly compared with human family:

God has some similarities to human family, but he is not perfectly identical to them. Spiritual relationships do not exactly correspond to human relationships. I cannot count the number of false doctrines that try to utilize this faulty comparison, and say "Well, a human parent wouldn't do this, and a human parent wouldn't do that."

A human parent is not the Infinite Holy Judge and Creator of all the Universe... period. They are not identical. They don't work the same. Humans are fallen and sinful, and they are limited and created. Humans do NOT take the place of God.

2. You have to live thinking you lose your salvation every second:

This is just a misrepresentation. There is grace under NOSAS, and lots of it. You do not need to be able to murder one thousand children and still be saved to be able to claim to have God's grace and God's security. God does not rip away our salvation every mistake we make, and almost no person arguing against OSAS even believes that.

If God promises not to ask of us what we cannot do, and it takes deliberate and pervasive wilful striving after sin to forfeit our salvation, it is not walking on the eggshells of a demand for perfection that offers no security.

So let's make more attempts to steel man the opposition here.

thats why when we argue eternal security we aregue the promises of God

God can be compared to a human family though, He does this himself

and having to think every moment, I agree thats a bad example or argument. The pharisees did not think they would lose salvation. they were blind to the fact they were lost and without hope. they thought they had eternal life and were in because of their great words of keeping the law and all of the jewish traditions and practices and ceremonies.

I mean, it sounds like alot of churches today..

 

[mailmandan]

Good works are not required to maintain our salvation?

NO. You could never do enough good works to maintain your salvation. From start to finish Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5,6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Peter 1:9)

Then you believe in disobeying Jesus because Jesus said that our good works ARE our salvation.

I believe in obeying Jesus and Jesus never said that good works are our salvation. That is your eisegesis which is filtered through the lens of works-righteousness. Jesus is our salvation. (John 3:16-18; 10:9; 14:6; Acts 4:12; Romans 3:24; 2 Corinthians 5:21)

The wise man: The wise man ACTS on the words of Christ.

Descriptive of children of God.

Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
The foolish man: The foolish man DOES NOT ACT on the words of Christ.

Matthew 7:26
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
ON HIM THE SOLID ROCK I STAND
ALL OTHER GROUND IS SINKING SAND

In Matthew 7:24-26, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as you suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock, and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand, and it collapses. The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. (descriptive of genuine Christians) The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness. (descriptive of pseudo-Christians) Only those who truly believe in Him (demonstrative evidence) are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. Keep in mind that in context, Jesus mentions false prophets in vs. 15 and He never knew these many people in vs. 23 which means they were never saved. True and false Christians are being contrasted throughout Matthew 7:15-27.

Unfortunately you don't teach good works.
Or obedience to God.

Sure, I do (Matthew 5:16; Ephesians 2:10; Titus 3:8,14) I just don't teach works-righteousness. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Big difference. Believers perform good works from salvation and not for salvation. You have it backwards.

Post some verses please.

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.
John 10:27 - My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
1 Corinthians 1:8 - He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:5 - who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, ]sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

Here's what I posted:

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
John states that when we love God
we obey His commandments....
and His commandments are NOT burdensome.

Amen! This is how we demonstrate our love for the children of God but not maintain our salvation by works. Believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" guard, observe, watch over) This does not mean flawless, perfect obedience 100% of the time to ALL of God's commandments as those who promote sinless perfection teach. (1 John 1:8-10) Only Jesus Christ was sinless.

téreó: To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over
Original Word: τηρέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: téreó
Pronunciation: tay-reh'-o
Phonetic Spelling: (tay-reh'-o)
Definition: To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over
Meaning: I keep, guard, observe, watch over.

Could you post some verses that state God's commandments are burdensome to follow after we are born again?

I never said they were burdensome. That is a strawman argument, and your strawman arguments are getting old.

If this is not what YOU are saying...then please stop putting words into my mouth.

Jesus does not agree with you.
How many times must I post the same scripture?
Don't you even believe what JESUS teaches?

I believe what Jesus teaches. I just don't believe your eisegesis.

Jesus taught THEY BELIEVED then FELL AWAY.

You're THEY WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH is a false belief system NOT BASED on biblical teaching.

Luke 8:13 JESUS said they BELIEVED FOR A WHILE,,,,then FELL AWAY.

Not all belief is saving belief. Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Allow me to explain why.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel (emotional response) without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.
*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

IN CONTRAST TO - Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart, so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with patience. Faith without works is dead, remember?

Luke 15:24 JESUS said the son became ALIVE AGAIN. AGAIN. He was alive, then lost, then alive AGAIN.

Other translations simply say your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (ESV); your brother was dead, but now he is alive. He was lost, but now he is found (NCV); this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found (NRS); this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found (NASB). All three parables in Luke 15 were in rebuke to the Pharisees and scribes who complained, saying, “This Man receives sinners and eats with them." (vs. 2)

Matthew 5:13 You ARE the salt,,,but if the salt BECOMES TASTELESS....

The point here is not about a loss of salvation, but a loss of usefulness and effectiveness. Salt was used as a preservative, just as believers are used to preserve humanity from immorality.

Jesus EXPECTS us to follow His commandments:

Of course, He does and for the right reasons.

Matthew 5:19
19 "Whoever * then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever * keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I find it very interesting that in the very next verse, Jesus said - unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven" This statement from Jesus would come as a shock to the multitude of people who had great admiration of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, for their knowledge of the law and seeming righteousness and holiness in external observance of the law, yet Jesus points out their righteousness was defective. Paul makes it clear in Romans 10:3-4, "For they (Israel) being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES."

We see in the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector an example of those who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, yet despised others. (Luke 18:9-14) We also see this today with various modern day Pharisees. The righteousness that exceeds the "righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees" (self righteousness) is the righteousness of God which is from God by faith.

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Romans 3:21 - But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Good for you.
We each have our story.
YOUR story does not make Christian doctrine.
The bible does.

No need to be so judgmental. You are not THE judge, and you are not my judge.

So now you're weighing your fruit?

Did I say I was weighing my fruit? Do you believe that all genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful? Perhaps you believe in fruitless Christians, which is an oxymoron.

How many ways are there to understand Dan?

We either believe Jesus' teachings or we don't.
We either follow Him or we don't.
We teach what He taught or we don't.

Let's be like the wise man.

I already thoroughly explained all of this. There are those who truly follow Jesus and there are those who thought they were following Jesus (like the Pharisees and the many people in Matthew 7:22-23) who all trust in their works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone and were deceived. Let everyone make sure they have the right foundation. (1 Corinthians 3:11)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

By whose power?
By YOUR FAITH....
or because God forces you to?

reality?

By Gods power.

So personal.
I'm talking about scripture, which I've posted.
You want to believe in cheap grace and easy believism...
Your prerogative.

You prove daily how hard it is to believe in this way. It takes total humility to believe this way. you have to submit yourself to a Holy God and place your eternity in his hands.

this goes against human logic. Human logic says I need to keep control. I need to have a ay, I need to earn my own way.

as for cheap grace. The cost of grace and mercy was the cross.. If you think Jesus suffering was cheap. well what more can I say..

Sure. Problem is that there are too many verses showing the opposite.
But I don't have enough time today.
How many more times do they need to be posted anyway?

Like I told someone else. You can post them until your blue in the face. and I can post my verses until I am blue

until you resolve the contradictions and flat out apposed meanings that these verses have based on your interpretation of said verses. there is nothing more to say.

You pick and choose the ones you like and do not harmonize all of scripture.

So do you

WHERE was eternal security taught in the early church?

In John

John 3, John 4 John 5 John 6 John 7. Paul taught it. In eph 1, Eph 2, his first epislte.

I can go on and on and on

your problem is you have bought into the catholic lie that no one taught anything..

look to the word. not the words of men, the jews made that mistake and will suffer for eternity because of it.

Post something please.
Eternal security was NEVER a part of the early church teaching and did not come about till Calvinism.

The Didache​

“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time” (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]).

Hermas​

“And as many of them . . . as have repented, shall have their dwelling in the tower [i.e., the Church]. And those of them who have been slower in repenting shall dwell within the walls. And as many as do not repent at all, but abide in their deeds, shall utterly perish. . . . But if any one relapse into strife, he will be cast out of the tower, and will lose his life. Life is the possession of all who keep the commandments of the Lord” (The Shepherd 3:8:7 [A.D. 80]).
My favorite...He was taught by John.

Ignatius of Antioch​

“And pray without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God?” (Letter to the Ephesians 10 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr​

“[E]ternal fire was prepared for him who voluntarily departed from God and for all who, without repentance, persevere in apostasy” (fragment in Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:26 [A.D. 156]).

Irenaeus​

“[T]he ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] into everlasting fire; but [God] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Notice how you post words of men, and not scripture. then so no one taught it

You want to be a follower of men, feel free.

count me out.

When God says I will never perish, he meant it
When he said I have eternal life, He meant it
When he said I have been saved, He meant it
When he said I have passed from death to life He meant it
When he said I will not come under judgment, He meat it
When he said I have been justified, he meant it
When he said I have been adopted. and he is now my abba father, he meant it
When he said he will never leave nor forsake me at any time, he meant it

Obeying Jesus is legalism?
Right. THIS is where your theology brings us.

Happily, more than 53% of Christians believe good works are necessary.
(pew poll).

 

[synergy]

please go away, I am sick of your false accusations

If you do not like what I am saying, fine

But stop pushing..

Bullys do this, are you a bully. having to push you view and attack everyone who does not agree?

this is truly your last warning, if you even mention this one more time, I will report you for harassing

You make disparaging Ad Hominem remarks and I'm not allowed to respond to them with Bible references and comments? Seriously????

You misrepresented me before with remarks like I'm "stuck on James" or I'm "stuck on 5 verses". How did I respond? I corrected you and moved on. That's because my focus is on the Bible and logic. It's not about me or you.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

RIGHT!
Are you starting to understand??

I already understand

You deny your trying to work for salvation. yet in the next break attack me for rejecting a works based Gospel. while proclaiming yourself you must work or you will not be saved.

Who is teaching legalism?

You are

I'm saying that we NEED TO OBEY GOD.

In context of what you believe, thats legalism

I believe we need to obey God also. but for a different reason..

Do you not understand the difference?

I do. I am not sure you do

We are not under THE LAW.
There is no legalism.

Yet you put people under law

there are two ways to heaven in scripture

1. The law

Sadly no person has ever met that standard but on. that is christ. thats why he became a curse for us. so we could be freed from that curse.

2. Grace

from adam until the last man who lives, salvation has been by grace through faith. Purchased by the shedding of blood. from a lamb without spot.

there is no other way to heaven according to scripture.

Jesus said we must SURPASS the pharisees in

Matthew 5:20
20 "For I say to you that unless * your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

yes.

and whose righteousness surpassed theirs in Jesus day? No ones.(well Christ did)

that's why Jesus used this, as he did many times, to get people to realize that it is impossible to get to good by how good we are.

when it came to the letter of the law. No one surpassed the pharisees in terms of keeping the law.

So just like the law. it is an impossible task. thats why the law was our schoolmaster.

will you let it lead you?

JESUS said that unless OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS SURPASSES that of the pharisees we will not enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

How do YOU understand this verse?

OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Is Jesus expecting LESS from us or MORE from us?

lol. He expects perfection.

In jesus day, where were the moral elite according to the law? The pharisees.

Jesus told sinners who could not even come close to having that amount of moral self righteousness. You have to go above that if you want to even have hope..

That's not what Jesus taught.
See just above re Matthew 5:20

Post some verses that state that we cannot lose our security.

I have done so so many times I have lost count

again, John 3, 4, 5, 6, start there..

STRAWMAN.
So tired of hearing this.

no more than I am tired of hearing the free cheap grace argument

which is not found in truth, but in your belief system

if I can not earn salvation. by definition. I can not lose it. this is just basic reality, because it is a gift.

If I am given a gift. that gift is mine, I did not earn it, I am not asked to earn it. I did not pay for it, nor am I asked to pay for it.

so in reality, I can not unearn it.. because I never earned it.

the only way I can unearn something is if I was paying for it in the first place. and I stopped short of paying it off.

Call it a strawman all you want. reality trumps what we think

Right. So start listening to what JESUS taught.

I have been for 40 years now.

when will you?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I hate analogies for the very reasons you're stating.
I also agree with your no. 2....that type of thinking is nonsense.

But sometimes it's so tiring to go over the same stuff for years and pretty frustrating how some
do not even believe JESUS HIMSELF !

it goes both ways.

People from both sides are so tired of saying the same thing over and over.

look inside. what you hate about others others hate about you

we all need to humble ourselves. it would be so much better.. and alot less hateful talk.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You're free to go beyond doing the best you can....

IF YOU CAN.

I would still not be able to make it. I would still fall short. I would still end up in hell as I would still be kept from entering the narrow gate

But hey, if you think your best can save you and keep you out of hell. feel free.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Apparently you also do not listen or hear what I post.

Yet I break down everything you say 90 % of the time

And my brother....he won't join a forum.
He thinks it's not too good for Christians to argue among themselves...
and he knows the bible really well too...

He has some smarts to him;. sometimes I wonder why I am here.

God did for you EG.....
now YOU do for HIM.

I do for him every day. I am offended that you refuse to acknowledge that and just blindly attack what you do not know

 

[synergy]

@synery

synery, what makes our salvation from sin and condemnation secured is not what we have done, nor will do, or will not do, ~ is that Christ alone secured the redemption of our sins by his obedience and righteousness alone, acting as our surety before God's holy, spiritual and good law.

So you're free to do whatever you want and it doesn't matter?

I posted Psalms 89 more than once, with no one attempting to respond concerning those wonderful scriptures.

What about Psalms 89?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Where in Matthew 7:23 does it state what you've posted above?
Please post it.

This is what Matthew 7:23 states:

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
And you're right....JESUS IS VERY CLEAR in all He tuaght.
So in Matthew 7:23 Jesus states EXACTLY WHY He never knew them.

see, this is what I mean

He stated the words. I never knew you depart from me

You told him to show where in the verse Jesus said that.

then skip over those words and highlight somethign else

the point is

1. He never knew them - ie they were never saved
2. Since they were never saved, by practice, they lives in sin, ie they practiced unrighteousness.

this is what will be told to everyone that goes to God on judgment day and tries to push their good works in his face.,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, I hear this from those that like to understand verses their very own way.....
which IS eisegesis.

You twist scripture to suit what YOU believe.
And, as usual, you're insulting and assume only YOU have the truth...
when, actually, you are far from it.


View attachment 1959

again, this sounds exactly like you.

sometimes we need to look in a mirror before we speak and insert our foot.

 

[JLB]

so you must be sinless perfect.

you have fulfilled the law in your heart and made it.. Christ is not needed.

way to God.. But please do not expect me to bow to you

No.

I do confess my sins when I do sin, and He cleanses me and we continue to walk in fellowship.


But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7-9

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin

Notice that the blood of Jesus is for cleansing those who walk in the light.

 

[mailmandan]

So works of the Law are no different than Charitable works of Love? Gal 5:6 says otherwise.

Good works are not detached from the moral aspect of the Law (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16) and Galatians 5:6 doesn't change that.

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working through love.

Paul often speaks of works of the law, especially when the members of his audience were Jewish. However, when Paul spoke to an audience with Gentiles included, he used the word works without limiting it to specific works of the law. In Ephesians 2:9 Paul simply said works, in Titus 3:5 Paul said works of righteousness (literally works done in righteousness) and in 2 Timothy 1:9, Paul said our works, so it's not just specific works of the law that are insufficient to secure our salvation, but any works in general.

Mat 25:36 I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink?

Don't you find it interesting that the righteous asked the Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink? Jesus answered - Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ How do you think these sheep were righteous in the first place? (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) Good works follow.

If "eternal life" is part of your definition of salvation then Paul does talk about good works and their relationship to salvation.

Good works are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it.

Rom 2:5 But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who will render to each according to his works;
Rom 2:7 indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life.
Rom 2:8 But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath,

If one reads Romans 2:6-8 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it’s critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These good works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we receive eternal life, but the type of deeds expose our hearts.

These good deeds done out of faith are the fruit, but not the root of salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 3:24-28; 4:4-6; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

James 2:14 clearly shows that there is a relationship between good works and salvation.

Again, in James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims (key word) he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

False. He makes it clear in his conclusion what works he is talking about:

False. You cannot dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.

Which includes the moral aspect of the law and not merely circumcision. Your argument comes out of Roman Catholicism.

Sure can. The Law didn't even exist during Abraham's time and yet he still did many good works that James 2 declares he was justified for.

I know the law did not exist during Abraham's time which proves my point that Paul does not merely limit works to specific works of the law.

False. How can works of the Law exist without the Law being present?

In Matthew 22:37-40, Jesus said - "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Please explain to me which good works that a Christian can accomplish which exclude loving God and their neighbor as their self? I'll be waiting.

Eph 2:5-10 can align with Rom 3:28 only if the works mentioned in Eph 2:9 are works of the Law.

This is a futile attempt to get around the truth that Paul does not merely limit works to specific works of the law (like circumcision) as I already proved. Paul said works, works of righteousness, our works, plus works of the law does not leave out good works which are included in loving God and our neighbor as ourselves. Just accept the truth.

 

[mailmandan]

Spoken like a true arrogant narcissist. Everyone filters scripture through the lens of their own self-righteous theological views.

You have me confused with folks who promote works righteousness. Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

 

[JLB]

I would still not be able to make it. I would still fall short. I would still end up in hell as I would still be kept from entering the narrow gate

Amen. None of us would make it without His grace, without His Spirit strengthening us every moment of everyday. Especially me.

But one thing I have learned, is to receive His love and grace more and more.

More of His grace to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walking according to my flesh.


The greatest desire of our Father is for us to let Him love us the way He desires to love us.

His love truly changes us.