Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[synergy]

Agreed.
Some really know Greek...
some make believe they do.
This is exactly what I was referring to.

Some use Strong's which is sorely lacking.
Some use some scholar's book...which will be prejudiced to their own belief system.
This is why it takes TWO SCHOLARS to debate any verse.....

That was my only point.
Knowing Greek would be great.

I'm not against knowing Greek or using it.
I know a Greek scholar and have spoken to him about this many times
and I know it's not as easy as some might believe it is.
He tried to explain the aorist tense to me one time,,,and I just gave up.
It has nothing to do with time or tense.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

I hear you.

My next project is to look at the Greek version of James 2:14. I have a sneaking suspicion that anti-James people have inserted the word "that" as in "that Faith" so as to cloud what James is really trying to say. I'll do that when my schedule permits me.

It's fascinating to see what anti-James people focus on as that more often than not is a mistranslation or something that didn't fully get through the translation.

 

[Johann]

I hear you.

My next project is to look at the Greek version of James 2:14. I have a sneaking suspicion that anti-James people have inserted the word "that" as in "that Faith" so as to cloud what James is really trying to say. I'll do that when my schedule permits me.

It's fascinating to see what anti-James people focus on as that more often than not is a mistranslation or something that didn't fully get through the translation.

What doth it profit? (ti ophelos̱). Rhetorical question, almost of impatience. Old word from ophellō, to increase, in N.T. only here, Jas_2:16; 1Co_15:32. “Ti ophelos was a common expression in the vivacious style of a moral diatribe” (Ropes).
If a man say (ean legēi tis). Condition of third class with ean and the present active subjunctive of legō, “if one keep on saying.”
He hath faith (pistin echein). Infinitive in indirect assertion after legēi.
But have not works (erga de mē echēi). Third-class condition continued, “but keeps on not having (mē and present active subjunctive echēi) works.” It is the spurious claim to faith that James here condemns.
Can that faith save him? (mē dunatai hē pistis sōsai autoṉ). Negative answer expected (mē). Effective aorist active infinitive sōsai (from sōzō). The article hē here is almost demonstrative in force as it is in origin, referring to the claim of faith without works just made.
Robertson


1) If one should say that he has faith, but do no good works or produce no fruit to confirm it, would "that kind" of faith, unworking faith, be the kind of faith that saves? Eph_2:8-10. The answer is "no" and that true faith will manifest itself in some type of good work. The good work does not save, but genuine faith in Jesus Christ does initiate desires for and sustain one in deeds of fruitful service to Jesus Christ.

2) The original language indicates a sense of almost disgust on James' part. It is ironic for one to say or keep on saying, or persistently say, that he has faith and is saved if he has no works. His claims demonstrate that his faith is spurious if the claims are not accompanied by some fruit.

That kind of faith which talks loudly, but works not at all, appears to be a farcical faith or claim of a kind of faith which the claimant does not possess, Joh_15:14.

Nowhere does Scripture teach or imply that good works save, in either the initial justification or eternal salvation sense.
Rather, Scripture affirms a consistent order:
Grace → Faith → Salvation → Good Works (as fruit)
Any reversal of this order leads to theological error or contradiction of the Gospel.

J.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Spoken like a true arrogant narcissist. Everyone filters scripture through the lens of their own self-righteous theological views.

everyone?

that's quite harsh. and I highly disagree

 

[Behold]

Let me present you with the facts:

1. There are presently 100's of differing English Bibles all claiming represent the NT. Did God preordain that? On the other hand, there is amazing commonality within the Koine Greek Text.

Do you speak K.Greek fluently? @synergy
If you do, then feel free to say that you do.
If you dont, then stop trying to be a "K Greek Teacher".

Also, the reason that there are too many bibles, is because The Devil wants it that way.

The Devil understands that too many bibles, and many of them are not really bibles.......will cause doctrinal confusion, and heresy.

So, what you do, is find out "which bible is REAL".. and that's easy to do.
Then use that one.

1. Which English Bible did you select to trust?

A real one.

Not the NIV., for example.

1. How do you decide which Bible is correct?

A few verses... mistranslated, define...>>"this bible is junk".

1. Koine Greek was vital enough for people to learn it in order to create their own translated version of it.

God uses an English Bible, the last 500 yrs, becasue God knew before you were born, that English was going to be the language of the world.
See, if you travel the world.......you find that most countries are trying to learn English.. as this is very similar to using the American Dollar, worldwide.
God knew this was going to be so, so, that is why the English Bible Versions, are the Real Bible..

1. Koine Greek is not too different than Modern Greek.

Neither are what God uses in the World...primarily.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So you're free to do whatever you want and it doesn't matter?

seems like you say this to alot of people

take a look inside dude.,

and start owning up to your own errors and misjudgments

No one is perfect. myself included/. but if I fail to own up to my mistakes. I am useless.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

No.

I do confess my sins when I do sin, and He cleanses me and we continue to walk in fellowship.

so you confessing your sins is what grants you enterance to heaven.

do you confess every one?

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7-9

• if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin

Notice that the blood of Jesus is for cleansing those who walk in the light.

Yes, I have fellowship with my brothers when I walk in the light

when I do not . My fellowship with them is broken.

But i am still a child of God (although I probably have some Holy Spirit chastening going on at this time.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Amen. None of us would make it without His grace, without His Spirit strengthening us every moment of everyday. Especially me.

But one thing I have learned, is to receive His love and grace more and more.

More of His grace to walk according to the Spirit, rather than walking according to my flesh.


The greatest desire of our Father is for us to let Him love us the way He desires to love us.

His love truly changes us.

Its knowledge we have eternal life. that's keeps us going

Paul considered everything he suffered a momentary light affliction. how?

He knew no matter what happened, he would pend an eternity in heaven with his savior. and nothing in this short lifespan take that away from him.. He looked ahead. Not back.. as he said, they can take my life. but not my soul/

eternal security does this to a person.

but satan wants to take that away by giving us doubt..

 

[JLB]

so you confessing your sins is what grants you enterance to heaven.

do you confess every one?

Confessing my sins is how I remain in fellowship with Him, that I may walk with Him and remain connected in relationship with Him.

Thankfully His Spirit leds me and helps me to know what and when I need to confess.


You would be surprised as to what He considers sin, compared to what we understand sin to be.


Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
James 4:17

 

[civic]

If anyone has the time I highly recommend watching this interview from a Theologian who has written a commentary on the book of Hebrews.

The focus is Hebrews 6 but they go through all the other warning passages in Hebrews.

 

[JLB]

Yes, I have fellowship with my brothers when I walk in the light

when I do not . My fellowship with them is broken.

But i am still a child of God (although I probably have some Holy Spirit chastening goin

The context involves fellowship with Him.


This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:5-7

Do you understand how God longs for fellowship with us?


God longed for His time with man in the garden, and was always there to be with them.

And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.


He desired for that fellowship to be restored and made coverings from skins from animals for them so fellowship could be restored.


Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.


An innocent animal had to pay the price for their sin so fellowship could continue.


This is a type of Christ, the spotless lamb of God whose blood was shed for us; for our sin so fellowship could continue between the Lord and His people everyday.

 

[Studyman]

You are very deceitful in lumping sins such sins as fornication, idolatry, with drinking blood, eating maggots, which I know of no one that would ever do such a gross thing, and eating animals that die of itself, or strangled etc..

There are cultures to this day that eat maggots, drink blood, even eat dogs that have been strangled, just as there were in the nations God led His People through. To them it isn't gross. But to God, according to HIS Will, it is forbidden and HE instructs HIS People to Abstain from such behavior. Would Jesus ever eat swine? He might cast evil spirits on them, but to accuse Jesus of eating swine is accusing Him of rejecting the Will of His Father, in favor of His own. Your Jesus might drink blood or eat swine's flesh, but the Jesus "of the Bible" would never engage in such behavior, and why would HE?

Of course, as you have implied for years, Jesus walked in "worthless Jewish Traditions" because HE was a Jew. Just another of the demeaning and insulting things being promoted by this world's religious system about Jesus and His Father.

It is true that there were "Red Bakers" among the Jews of Christ's Time as well, who wanted the promised Life, but didn't want to "Abstain" from any of their fathers traditions. So they created their own religion, "in Christ's Name", and lived "after the imaginations of their own heart". The Spirit of the Christ "of the bible" prophesies of this very thing in Jer. 23:16,17, if you wanted to get God's perspective of people who promote such behavior, you should read what God Says.

You believe One Sin is greater than another, like drinking blood is worse than eating swine's flesh, because "your" tradition isn't drinking blood, but eating swine's flesh. This is a common belief. "your sin is worse than mine!" But the Jesus "of the bible" also exposes this mindset for us.

Luke 13: 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, "ye shall all likewise perish".

Malachi explains what happened to the Priests who adopted the exact same mindset as you are promoting here today.

Mal. 2: 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way (Of the Lord) ye have caused many to stumble "at the law"; ye have corrupted "the covenant of Levi", saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept "my ways", but have been "partial in the law".

Does rejecting God Word's that Jesus said to live by matter? I think that is up to each person to decide. The only reason why I reply to your posts, is to show the contrast between what you preach, and what the Bible actually says. And this out of God's love for the Brethren.

 

[civic]

There are cultures to this day that eat maggots, drink blood, even eat dogs that have been strangled, just as there were in the nations God led His People through. To them it isn't gross. But to God, according to HIS Will, it is forbidden and HE instructs HIS People to Abstain from such behavior. Would Jesus ever eat swine? He might cast evil spirits on them, but to accuse Jesus of eating swine is accusing Him of rejecting the Will of His Father, in favor of His own. Your Jesus might drink blood or eat swine's flesh, but the Jesus "of the Bible" would never engage in such behavior, and why would HE?

Of course, as you have implied for years, Jesus walked in "worthless Jewish Traditions" because HE was a Jew. Just another of the demeaning and insulting things being promoted by this world's religious system about Jesus and His Father.

It is true that there were "Red Bakers" among the Jews of Christ's Time as well, who wanted the promised Life, but didn't want to "Abstain" from any of their fathers traditions. So they created their own religion, "in Christ's Name", and lived "after the imaginations of their own heart". The Spirit of the Christ "of the bible" prophesies of this very thing in Jer. 23:16,17, if you wanted to get God's perspective of people who promote such behavior, you should read what God Says.

You believe One Sin is greater than another, like drinking blood is worse than eating swine's flesh, because "your" tradition isn't drinking blood, but eating swine's flesh. This is a common belief. "your sin is worse than mine!" But the Jesus "of the bible" also exposes this mindset for us.

Luke 13: 1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, "ye shall all likewise perish".

Malachi explains what happened to the Priests who adopted the exact same mindset as you are promoting here today.

Mal. 2: 7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts. 8 But ye are departed out of the way (Of the Lord) ye have caused many to stumble "at the law"; ye have corrupted "the covenant of Levi", saith the LORD of hosts.

9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept "my ways", but have been "partial in the law".

Does rejecting God Word's that Jesus said to live by matter? I think that is up to each person to decide. The only reason why I reply to your posts, is to show the contrast between what you preach, and what the Bible actually says. And this out of God's love for the Brethren.

do you consider trinitarians your brethren that you can fellowship with and break bread ?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Confessing my sins is how I remain in fellowship with Him, that I may walk with Him and remain connected in relationship with Him.

Thankfully His Spirit leds me and helps me to know what and when I need to confess.


You would be surprised as to what He considers sin, compared to what we understand sin to be.


Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
James 4:17

that was my point, we can not know or remember every sin we commit. so if it is required to keep saved. we will fail

 

[JLB]

Would Jesus ever eat swine? He might cast evil spirits on them, but to accuse Jesus of eating swine is accusing Him of rejecting the Will of His Father,

Jesus declared all food to be clean.


So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” Mark 7:18-19


Paul echoes this truth.

I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
Romans 14:14-15

• I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself;

 

[GodsGrace]

whatever.

I have come to understand you will see what you want to see.

EG....we all see what we want to see!
You don't know how much it disturbs me that we're not all on the same page.

I just take the word., and see what it says.

the whole point of James conversation in that conversation is people who say they have faith, but have no works, and asks the question. can that faith save them

Do you realize that some version state CAN FAITH SAVE THEM? It leaves out the THAT which is all important to you.
But, you know, I hate discussing words when we can't even agree on big issues.

no need to go anyplace else. No need to search all over to find something that will help support your view or mine. just read the rest of the text. and see what James said.

I stayed in James to support my view.
You know very well that we need supporting scripture for any verse.
A verse cannot stand alone.

I wish there was an UP arrow to get us back to the post we're responding to.
It makes me dizzy going back and forth....

why would James say this? Maybe just maybe there were people there who CLAIMED they had faith, but were hearers only not doers?
fits right into my interpretation.

OK. So let's dismiss everything else he says?
Paul says we are saved by faith alone....
then he goes on to state how we're to behave in all his writings.
So are we saved by faith alone or not?
Initial salvation....OK.
But then why is it important for Paul to discuss our behavior all the time?
Surely this has something to do with salvation.
One man was thrown out of the chuch in Corinth...was he never saved??
He was let back in, so....

And what about Matthew 18?
Jesus said to treat the offending party as they would a tax collector.
Was that person never saved?

Too many verses teaching the opposite of OSAS.

Exactly. these people were not doing this.

Not only this, they were giving praise and favoritism to the wealthy, while sticking the poor in the back of the room.

Thats the whole pople James is making. You want to show your faith is real. do these things. if your not doing them. why not?

Abraham was justified in Gen 15. He offered his son decades later.

Right. But he DID offer his son.
And two different writers spoke to this...
One at initial salvation...
and one many years later.

Obedience perfects faith.
Faith without obedience is a dead faith and puts one in danger.
John 3:36 is the perfect verse but I hate having to discuss the word OBEY...
so let's not get into that.

so the justification James spoke of here can not be eternal life.

What else is the gospel for if not eternal life?
The whole point of Jesus is for the atonement and to teach us how to get to heaven.
What is there to teach if faith is ALL we need??

His FAITH was perfected. His faith. which saved him, was shown in his life to grow strong, and in the end, it was perfected as he offered up his son.

Agreed.

Abraham had living faith. pr0oved by his works..

Agreed.
So does a saved person who claims we don't even need to obey the commandments have life in him?
I mentioned this yesterday...

But he was saved before he did any works

LOL Abraham did works all along EG.
He left his home to obey God!

we all are.

And THAT FAITH can not save.

because it did not repent, it did not trust God. It did not have any assurance or confidence. it trusted in self. hence why they did what they wanted in the flesh. and were hearers only not doers.

You're putting persons into scripture that are not there.
James is speaking to believers...
TO THE 12 TRIBES THAT ARE DISPERSED ABROAD....
CONSIDER IT ALL JOY MY BRETHREN......
James 1:1-2

Verse 12: BLESSED IS A MAN WHO PERSEVERES UNDER TRIAL.....
IOW, we must persevere under trial.
He even says we won't be approved till then....but who knows what he meant.
We are approved now...not in the end.


Chapter 2, verse 8: IF YOU ARE FULFILLING THE ROYAL LAW,,,YOU ARE DOING WELL.

Sounds like we need to fulfill the royal law.

when you add the word MUST, your adding self righteousness.

MUST pertains to God giving a command.
It's not a suggestion...
it's a MUST.

Whether or not we do it goes into a different topic...
1 John 1 and 2 for instance.

But God cannot be mocked...

Faith, true living faith, is never by itself

Agreed !

Are you telling me you trust your husband, or parents and just hear what they say to you and NEVER do anything they say or support them, or try to honor them with your deeds?

I only ask you because from your words you are telling me that is possible

I can't go back to my post again...but I doubt I said anything like that.
This is why I hate analogies...did I actually post one? lol

I am telling you it is not

If you told me you had faith in your parents and NEVER did anything they asked. rebelled against them on a continually bases. did nothing to honor them.,

I would call you admitting that you trusted them a lie. Because if you really trusted them, you would not do these things you would at least honor them in some ways, at least do some of the things they say.. Show some semblance that you really do trust them, it is not just words.

thats in effect what James is saying

Well I agree with you 100%.
This is why I post on doing good works.
How could there be pushback for wanting to do good works?
For wanting to obey Jesus?
I think it's dangerous NOT to obey Jesus...
and the pushback sounds like we don't really have to.

 

[JLB]

that was my point, we can not know or remember every sin we commit. so if it is required to keep saved. we will fail

That’s why it’s best to not lean on our own understanding but to acknowledge Him and His word to us.

Remaining in fellowship with Him, where we learn to discern His voice and follow His leading and guidance is important.

Having ears to hear what the Spirit is saying…


Here is the Lord’s teaching on the matter -


The sheep who became lost -


“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
Matthew 18:12-17


Jesus gives us the interpretation -

Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone.
If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’

And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church.


But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


People who are stubborn and refuse to repent of their sin, can indeed end up returning to being a sinner;
A heathen who is lost.

 

[civic]

EG....we all see what we want to see!
You don't know how much it disturbs me that we're not all on the same page.

Do you realize that some version state CAN FAITH SAVE THEM? It leaves out the THAT which is all important to you.
But, you know, I hate discussing words when we can't even agree on big issues.


I stayed in James to support my view.
You know very well that we need supporting scripture for any verse.
A verse cannot stand alone.

I wish there was an UP arrow to get us back to the post we're responding to.
It makes me dizzy going back and forth....

OK. So let's dismiss everything else he says?
Paul says we are saved by faith alone....
then he goes on to state how we're to behave in all his writings.
So are we saved by faith alone or not?
Initial salvation....OK.
But then why is it important for Paul to discuss our behavior all the time?
Surely this has something to do with salvation.
One man was thrown out of the chuch in Corinth...was he never saved??
He was let back in, so....

And what about Matthew 18?
Jesus said to treat the offending party as they would a tax collector.
Was that person never saved?

Too many verses teaching the opposite of OSAS.


Right. But he DID offer his son.
And two different writers spoke to this...
One at initial salvation...
and one many years later.

Obedience perfects faith.
Faith without obedience is a dead faith and puts one in danger.
John 3:36 is the perfect verse but I hate having to discuss the word OBEY...
so let's not get into that.

What else is the gospel for if not eternal life?
The whole point of Jesus is for the atonement and to teach us how to get to heaven.
What is there to teach if faith is ALL we need??


Agreed.

Agreed.
So does a saved person who claims we don't even need to obey the commandments have life in him?
I mentioned this yesterday...

LOL Abraham did works all along EG.
He left his home to obey God!

You're putting persons into scripture that are not there.
James is speaking to believers...
TO THE 12 TRIBES THAT ARE DISPERSED ABROAD....
CONSIDER IT ALL JOY MY BRETHREN......
James 1:1-2

Verse 12: BLESSED IS A MAN WHO PERSEVERES UNDER TRIAL.....
IOW, we must persevere under trial.
He even says we won't be approved till then....but who knows what he meant.
We are approved now...not in the end.


Chapter 2, verse 8: IF YOU ARE FULFILLING THE ROYAL LAW,,,YOU ARE DOING WELL.

Sounds like we need to fulfill the royal law.


MUST pertains to God giving a command.
It's not a suggestion...
it's a MUST.

Whether or not we do it goes into a different topic...
1 John 1 and 2 for instance.

But God cannot be mocked...

Agreed !

I can't go back to my post again...but I doubt I said anything like that.
This is why I hate analogies...did I actually post one? lol

Well I agree with you 100%.
This is why I post on doing good works.
How could there be pushback for wanting to do good works?
For wanting to obey Jesus?
I think it's dangerous NOT to obey Jesus...
and the pushback sounds like we don't really have to.

there is an up arrow in the quote when you reply to a poster- its a small blue up arrow next to your name Godsgrace said:

 

[GodsGrace]

Just to be honest sis

I see this in you.

This is not a very good way to discuss the word. When you say something that can said back to you. it is a useless argument and typically makes the person doing it appear hypocritical

Pretty frustrating at times when someone keeps repeating that they're right and you're wrong.
As if THEY have all the truth and everyone else that disagrees with them does not have the truth.

 

[Johann]

Pretty frustrating at times when someone keeps repeating that they're right and you're wrong.
As if THEY have all the truth and everyone else that disagrees with them does not have the truth.

This is a classic case of hypocrisy--accusing another of the very fault one possesses.

J.

 

[civic]

Lets just defend what we believe without making it personal with those we disagree with and take the emotions out of it, I know its not easy to do because we are all very "passionate" and "protective " about what we believe and why we believe it.

I have had to learn to do this myself as I was not easy to talk with if we disagreed while I was on other forums.