The Soteriology of Ignorance: Why to Preach?

[Studyman]

The Bible teaches that condemnation resides not in having sincere, honest doubts on the veracity of something that is preached to you.
Condemnation resides in rejecting the truth because it would imply to leave asides our bad habits, bad behaviors. Let's read the text:

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, "lest" his deeds should be exposed." (John 3:18-20)​

This is one of my favorite Scriptures. But you left off an important part of the message Jesus was giving us in these Scriptures. Please allow me to include it for our examination and discussion.

21 But he that "doeth truth" cometh to the light, "that" his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So as a sinner, who in times past "walked according to the course (including religions) of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in "the children of disobedience", I understand that I, like Paul, love darkness.

But I don't want to know God's Truth. And I believe God's Word is Truth and the Truth can be found written in scriptures that Paul said were trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works".

John 17: 17 Sanctify them through "thy" truth: "thy" word "is truth".

The Jesus "of the Bible", who I believe is the Light of the world, says to "Live by" Every Word of God, or as we have just shown, Every Word "of Truth". And it is this truth that sets men free from deception.

I do this for the very purpose of exposing my deeds, that they are no longer hidden from the Light, but are made manifest "For the very purpose" of finding out if they are wrought in God (His Truth) or Not.

In this way, my definition of Good, Holy, Clean, and Just, are the same as God's and His Sons and all the members of God's Church shown to us in Scriptures.

John 17: 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

It is the prevalent thought in many sectarian businesses, that "light" means the correct creed and "darkness" the mistaken creed.
This is so convenient for their leaders, because they want people to remain in their particular sect on account on the false security of being "in the light" or "in the truth" that can only be offered by subscribing to the right, orthodox view. By doing that wicked leaders ensure access to their minds and pocket$ and keep competitors at bay. (Leaving the sect to adhere to a competitor church equals apostasy).

What I advocate, and I believe Paul did as well, is to separate ourselves from the entire religious system, or "course" of this world, including the "Creeds or Doctrines" they promote and use to compete with one another for contributing members. To "Come out of her" altogether and "yield ourselves" to God and HIS Word which is truth. Why would a man want to adopt the philosophies of a religion who transgresses God's Commandments, Judgments and statues, is favor of their own manmade doctrines, images of God in the likeness of man, their own traditions, high days, etc.

Whose tradition is it partake of this world's religious businesses "who profess to know God"? Where is it written in scriptures that a man must consider all the religious businesses and sects of this world, and then choose one to adopt, financially support, and promote to others?

This tradition is not promoted in the Holy scriptures, and yet it is adopted by so many?

But if we examine the passage, light and darkness are determined by the kind of life the person lives... the deeds.

But who defined Light and Darkness for Abraham, Jesus, for Paul, for Moses, for David? Do we submit to the Popes "definitions"? Perhaps Wesley, or Miller, or White, or Russell, or Smith, or Mírzá Husayn ʻAlí Núrí.

Shall a man choose to believe Jesus Words here, but not believe His Words spoken in another place?

So, one thing is to reject religion X on the basis of a critical review of their doctrines and practices (regardless of how accurate or successful that review ends up being).
Another thing is to reject religion X because we want to remain sleeping around with people who are not our spouses, and thinking only in making money, which the God presented by religion X demands us to quit.

And there is another "Thing" my friend Pancho. To reject every religious business or sect of this world whose philosophies and traditions cause those who adopt them to transgress the commandments of God. To "Yield oneself" to God's Definition, according to Holy Scriptures, of what is Holy, what is Clean, what is Good and what is Evil, as opposed to "yielding oneself" to "another voice" in the garden God placed us in.

Yes, it is a path less traveled. Yes, the religious businesses of this world would reject such a life, along with the merchants of the world who wax rich through their manmade high days and religious traditions of man, their manmade shrines of worship, their images of God in the likeness of men, etc.

Does it matter? How can I possibly know? And isn't this by design, that the Salvation of God is through Faith in Him? The kind of Faith that was in Christ Jesus?

And what would I say to Him if I followed this world's religious system and rejected His Judgments? I didn't know! I wasn't shown! I was ignorant!

But what is the Truth if I did this? The truth is I simply believed in this world's religious sects and businesses, and didn't believe God's Word.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Because once Satan has someone they cannot get free of him, ever, without Jesus.

If the violent becomes meek, the adulterer faithful, and the selfish generous, it is BECAUSE they are in Christ, and the Holy Spirit is acting on them. Christ has freed them from the slavery of sin, of Satan. Otherwise they could have never achieved it by themselves.

So do not get confused:

• Satan wants people slave of the rule of flesh: that is, doing evil.
• Christ wants people free from the rule of the flesh: that is, living a new life, a life of love to God and to their neighbors.

If you see a Mormon lady showing the fruit of the Spirit, it is not because they achieved this by her own merits, or because Beelzebub is doing it. It is because she is a genuine follower of Jesus Christ, and a genuine instruments of the grace of God, regardless of all the doctrinal mistakes she might have.

Furthermore, if someone sees that Mormon lady living the life of love, and deny it is the work of the Holy Spirit, but affirms it is the work of Beelzebul, such person would be speaking against the Holy Spirit and therefore, in an unsaved state. I beg you to review this passage with me and our readers:

Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”​

​

But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”​

​

Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.​

​

"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.​

​

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.​

​

“Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.” (Matthew 12:22-33)​

 

[Doug Brents]

If the violent becomes meek, the adulterer faithful, and the selfish generous, it is BECAUSE they are in Christ, and the Holy Spirit is acting on them. Christ has freed them from the slavery of sin, of Satan. Otherwise they could have never achieved it by themselves.

There are many in pagan religions who act "righteously", but they are not saved.

So do not get confused:

• Satan wants people slave of the rule of flesh: that is, doing evil.
• Christ wants people free from the rule of the flesh: that is, living a new life, a life of love to God and to their neighbors.

If you see a Mormon lady showing the fruit of the Spirit, it is not because they achieved this by her own merits, or because Beelzebub is doing it. It is because she is a genuine follower of Jesus Christ, and a genuine instruments of the grace of God, regardless of all the doctrinal mistakes she might have.

That is not true at all. There is no truth to the mormon religion, and no salvation can be found through it. The same goes for any other religion. The ONLY way to salvation is through Christ Jesus alone. People can act righteous, they can go through the motions believing that they are saved, but they are still condemned unless they are in Christ.

Furthermore, if someone sees that Mormon lady living the life of love, and deny it is the work of the Holy Spirit, but affirms it is the work of Beelzebul, such person would be speaking against the Holy Spirit and therefore, in an unsaved state. I beg you to review this passage with me and our readers:

Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”​

​

But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”​

​

Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.​

​

"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man’s house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house.​

​

“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.​

​

“Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.” (Matthew 12:22-33)​

It is good to know the Scriptures, but it is even better to interpret them properly. The mormon lady you speak of is still condemned, no matter how good she acts. It is not her actions that save her, nor do they indicate her salvation.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There are many in pagan religions who act "righteously", but they are not saved.

If they are acting righteously, it is because they are saved.
Otherwise they wouldn't be acting righteously.

You know a person has been justified and born again when he passes from a life of sin to a life of righteousness.
Let me insist on this: Beelzebub cannot achieve it. The best efforts of those people cannot achieve. Only God can achieve it.

If it is hard for you to understand this truth, it is because you have been misinformed at some point between your childhood and your adult life.
When you were a child, you understood this truth so easily.

That is not true at all. There is no truth to the mormon religion, and no salvation can be found through it.

God's grace does not limit itself to people with a 100% right understanding of truth, including you and me.
Do you think that God has saved you because of you adhere to the right doctrines?
Do you think that in the Judgement, God will judge us according to how well you respond a quiz on Theology?
Matthew 25:31-46 reveals a different thing. Please read it.

The same goes for any other religion. The ONLY way to salvation is through Christ Jesus alone. People can act righteous, they can go through the motions believing that they are saved, but they are still condemned unless they are in Christ.

If the Mormon lady is acting righteously, it is because she is already in Christ.
Do you think that you act righteously because you adhere only to the right doctrines?
No, my friend. If you act righteously, it is because God's grace is transforming your life, DESPITE your doctrinal mistakes.

It is good to know the Scriptures, but it is even better to interpret them properly. The mormon lady you speak of is still condemned, no matter how good she acts. It is not her actions that save her, nor do they indicate her salvation.

Why do you think such lady is acting right?
Because of the work of Beelzebub, or because of the work of the Holy Spirit in her life?

 

[Doug Brents]

If they are acting righteously, it is because they are saved.
Otherwise they wouldn't be acting righteously.

You know a person has been justified and born again when he passes from a life of sin to a life of righteousness.
Let me insist on this: Beelzebub cannot achieve it. The best efforts of those people cannot achieve. Only God can achieve it.

If it is hard for you to understand this truth, it is because you have been misinformed at some point between your childhood and your adult life.
When you were a child, you understood this truth so easily.

It is rich for a pagan "bahai" to tell people who have been in Christ for decades that they are wrong about something with regard to Christ.
Just acting righteously does not indicate that a person has passed from death to life in Christ.

God's grace does not limit itself to people with a 100% right understanding of truth, including you and me.
Do you think that God has saved you because of you adhere to the right doctrines?
Do you think that in the Judgement, God will judge us according to how well you respond a quiz on Theology?
Matthew 25:31-46 reveals a different thing. Please read it.

Certainly He does not judge us based on our knowledge or adherence to 'right doctrines". But He does judge us based on whether or not we are in Christ. If we are not in Christ, then we are condemned. If we are in Christ, then we are saved.

If the Mormon lady is acting righteously, it is because she is already in Christ.

Nope, she could be deceived, deceiving herself, or acting to deceive others. Even Al Capone did many "good deeds", was a benefactor to his community, and thought of himself as a good person doing good things. "... antagonistic individuals will rate themselves as less good and more bad than other people rate themselves, but that antagonistic individuals will still regard themselves as substantially more good than bad. This hypothesis was named after Al “Scarface” Capone, a notorious Chicago mobster, who acknowledged his capacity for badness but emphasized his good moral character."

Do you think that you act righteously because you adhere only to the right doctrines?

Nope, I act righteously because I strive to be more like my Lord and God, Jesus Christ. I fail frequently, but I continuously turn back to Him every time I stumble. And because I am in Christ, He continually washes me of all sin.

No, my friend. If you act righteously, it is because God's grace is transforming your life, DESPITE your doctrinal mistakes.

You have it backwards: if God's grace has transformed your life, you act righteously.
But you can act righteously even if He hasn't transformed your life, and still remain lost.

Why do you think such lady is acting right?
Because of the work of Beelzebub, or because of the work of the Holy Spirit in her life?

Satan (Beelzebub) can and does pretend to be an angel of light, and his servants can pretend to be Christ followers also. There are many reasons for doing so: to deceive others into following her mostly truthful but ultimately false religion, or maybe to deceive herself into thinking that her religion isn't really the false religion that it is, or maybe to give deceived people like yourself ammunition to deceive yet more people into believing that "all religions are equal".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It is rich for a pagan "bahai" to tell people who have been in Christ for decades that they are wrong about something with regard to Christ.
Just acting righteously does not indicate that a person has passed from death to life in Christ.

1 John 3: 14 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death"

So, according to Scripture, how do we KNOW that the Mormon lady has passed from death to life?
By asking her whether Jesus in reality came to the Americas to preach to the Nephites?
By asking her whether she has got baptized for her ancestors in the Mormon Temple?
By asking her whether she wears an underwear as symbol of his commitments at the Temple?

Certainly He does not judge us based on our knowledge or adherence to 'right doctrines". But He does judge us based on whether or not we are in Christ. If we are not in Christ, then we are condemned. If we are in Christ, then we are saved.

I agree.
So, how can we KNOW that the Mormon lady is in Christ?

 

[Doug Brents]

1 John 3: 14 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death"

So, according to Scripture, how do we KNOW that the Mormon lady has passed from death to life?
By asking her whether Jesus in reality came to the Americas to preach to the Nephites?
By asking her whether she has got baptized for her ancestors in the Mormon Temple?
By asking her whether she wears an underwear as symbol of his commitments at the Temple?


I agree.
So, how can we KNOW that the Mormon lady is in Christ?

We can KNOW that she is, or isn't, in Christ by observing the motives behind her actions. A person who truly loves will demonstrate their love through their actions. But someone who is just pretending, or doing it to deceive, or because they have been deceived, will eventually be seen through. There are thousands of examples of this in the catholic religion, the mormon religion, the islamic religion, the budhist, and all other religions. There are even examples of this in those claiming to be part of the Lord's Church. But their motives always become evident, and their "love" is shown for the sham that it is.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

We can KNOW that she is, or isn't, in Christ by observing the motives behind her actions. A person who truly loves will demonstrate their love through their actions. But someone who is just pretending, or doing it to deceive, or because they have been deceived, will eventually be seen through. There are thousands of examples of this in the catholic religion, the mormon religion, the islamic religion, the budhist, and all other religions. There are even examples of this in those claiming to be part of the Lord's Church. But their motives always become evident, and their "love" is shown for the sham that it is.

I agree.
And certainly there are examples of bad motives within any church or religious group, do we agree?

So, if you observe the motive of the Mormon lady, and her motive is love, will you believe that such love comes from the Holy Spirit?

 

[civic]

I agree.
And certainly there are examples of bad motives within any church or religious group, do we agree?

So, if you observe the motive of the Mormon lady, and her motive is love, will you believe that such love comes from the Holy Spirit?

nope true love which is Divine only comes from those born of the Spirit. the fruit of the Spirit can only come from a born again believer.

 

[Doug Brents]

I agree.
And certainly there are examples of bad motives within any church or religious group, do we agree?

So, if you observe the motive of the Mormon lady, and her motive is love, will you believe that such love comes from the Holy Spirit?

IF it were to be demonstrated so, then yes, I would have to conclude that it were. However, it is impossible for it to be so proven, because the mormon faith denies Christ, and as such they cannot have the Spirit of Christ, just as @civic said above.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

nope true love which is Divine only comes from those born of the Spirit. the fruit of the Spirit can only come from a born again believer.

That's why I say that if a person shows genuine love, it is proof that such person is born again.

You, as well as @Doug Brents, cling to the wrong assumption that you must first examine the tree, and then, on a second step, judge the fruits.
It is the other way around!

You cannot judge the tree, because that can be misleading.
You cannot say in advance, before knowing the fruits, that the Mormon lady cannot truly love, because she has not received the Holy Spirit.
You first assess the fruits of the Mormon lady.

• If they are fruits of love, you conclude that she received the Holy Spirit.
• If the fruits are fake, then you conclude that she didn't receive it.

Will you go around telling thousands of Mormon ladies: Hey listen, You are unable to love genuinely, or to show genuine care, kindness, perseverance, temperance, because that is reserved to Baptist ladies?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

IF it were to be demonstrated so, then yes, I would have to conclude that it were.

Excellent, my friend.

However, it is impossible for it to be so proven,

You can't prove anything about what's in the heart of anyone around you. Only God knows the motives of each heart.

However, we act every day, in our daily lives, with the conviction that we can tell good fruit from bad fruit.
We follow Jesus' recommended method. Don't we? Let me give you an example:

When your teenage girl tells you "Dad, I'll start dating Arthur. I'll bring him home so that you can know him and give me your opinion".
You don't tell your girl: "Oh, sweety, there is no way I could know if Arthur is a good man or not. No way to prove it. So, don't bother to bring him home... he could deceive you and me so easily if he wants... look, this is my advice: Just follow your instincts: if you feel like he is a good man for you, go for it."

 

[civic]

That's why I say that if a person shows genuine love, it is proof that such person is born again.

You, as well as @Doug Brents, cling to the wrong assumption that you must first examine the tree, and then, on a second step, judge the fruits.
It is the other way around!

You cannot judge the tree, because that can be misleading.
You cannot say in advance, before knowing the fruits, that the Mormon lady cannot truly love, because she has not received the Holy Spirit.
You first assess the fruits of the Mormon lady.

• If they are fruits of love, you conclude that she received the Holy Spirit.
• If the fruits are fake, then you conclude that she didn't receive it.

Will you go around telling thousands of Mormon ladies: Hey listen, You are unable to love genuinely, or to show genuine care, kindness, perseverance, temperance, because that is reserved to Baptist ladies?

a person cannot become born again apart from faith in Christ.

 

[ProDeo]

If they are acting righteously, it is because they are saved.

In Baha'i maybe, not according the Scriptures.

 

[civic]

If they are acting righteously, it is because they are saved.
Otherwise they wouldn't be acting righteously.

You know a person has been justified and born again when he passes from a life of sin to a life of righteousness.
Let me insist on this: Beelzebub cannot achieve it. The best efforts of those people cannot achieve. Only God can achieve it.

If it is hard for you to understand this truth, it is because you have been misinformed at some point between your childhood and your adult life.
When you were a child, you understood this truth so easily.





God's grace does not limit itself to people with a 100% right understanding of truth, including you and me.
Do you think that God has saved you because of you adhere to the right doctrines?
Do you think that in the Judgement, God will judge us according to how well you respond a quiz on Theology?
Matthew 25:31-46 reveals a different thing. Please read it.


If the Mormon lady is acting righteously, it is because she is already in Christ.
Do you think that you act righteously because you adhere only to the right doctrines?
No, my friend. If you act righteously, it is because God's grace is transforming your life, DESPITE your doctrinal mistakes.


Why do you think such lady is acting right?
Because of the work of Beelzebub, or because of the work of the Holy Spirit in her life?

the pharisees were also "righteous" in the eyes of the people.

the rich your ruler obeyed the law and Jesus disciples were shocked that Jesus rejected him and sent him away.

imitation is not the real thing- one can try and imitate the fruit of the spirit but its fake not the genuine thing.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

In Baha'i maybe, not according the Scriptures.

Hi ProDeo

Give one single example from the Bible of a righteous man or woman, a just man or woman, who achieved such righteousness by the power of Satan.
One single example.
Otherwise I would kindly invite you to retract your statement.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

the pharisees were also "righteous" in the eyes of the people.

Which people? Not you, not me.
Pharisees were not righteous in the eyes of the writers of the gospels. They are presented to us as bad persons.
So, by reading the gospels, we know they were hypocritical.

If you mean that you can’t tell hypocrisy from genuine love, then how did you get married? How did your wife get married?
Do you know someone in your life who is not a phony?

I challenge you, my friend, to present one single example, only one, of a person considered “righteous”, “just” or “God-fearing” by the inspired writer, who achieved such righteousness by the power of Satan.

the rich your ruler obeyed the law and Jesus disciples were shocked that Jesus rejected him and sent him away.

Did he obey the law?
To love money more than anything else is not to obey the law. It violates the two greatest comandments of The Law.
If the Mormon lady has detached from money to serve mankind, moved By love of Christ, is she following Christ or not?

imitation is not the real thing- one can try and imitate the fruit of the spirit but its fake not the genuine thing.

Who says that the Mormon lady is “imitating” while the Baptist lady is doing “the real thing”?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

In Baha'i maybe, not according the Scriptures.

This is what Bible teaches, my brother:

“If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who does righteousness is born of Him.” 1 John 2:29

Therefore, if the Mormon lady does righteousness, you can be sure she is born of Christ.

 

[ProDeo]

Hi ProDeo

Give one single example from the Bible of a righteous man or woman, a just man or woman, who achieved such righteousness by the power of Satan.
One single example.
Otherwise I would kindly invite you to retract your statement.

Hello Pancho, with all your Scriptural knowledge you should know better, there is only one name given under the heavens for salvation.

There are millions of atheists and likely even more agnostics who live a moral life and yet they deny God and remain what they are and will die in their sins.

John 8:24 I [Jesus] told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

 

[ProDeo]

This is what Bible teaches, my brother:

“If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who does righteousness is born of Him.” 1 John 2:29

Therefore, if the Mormon lady does righteousness, you can be sure she is born of Christ.

Context, context, context.... isolated verses may give a wrong impression as in this case.

1Joh 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming.
1Joh 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
1Joh 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him.

John is talking to born again Christians, not atheists and other Christ deniers who live a moral life.