synergy
Active Member
It's ok for you to tell me that I do not have a valid answer but it's not ok for me to tell you the same? Seriously??? Who do you think you are? The Pope?
Excellent Discussion on OSAS
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Obadiah
Active Member
Your link above had a quote from Ray Stedman. Here is one of his sermons.Hebrews 6:4-5 Commentary | Precept Austin
www.preceptaustin.org
The Church that Lost its Love
Message: The Church that Lost its Love (Revelation 1:19 - 2:7)
What a wonderful week this has been! The whole world has been caught by surprise at the developments in Eastern Europe. New doors of freedom have opened there; even the barrier of the Berlin Wall has been set aside. It has been fascinating to watch. What struck me most was the universal reaction...
www.raystedman.org
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
lol
I said I do not see or agree with your answer.
in the case of romans 2 written to jews) I asked you to read the whole passage and not take a few verses out.
Thats not the same as you telling me I have not answered..
this is not my fist go around with someone who thinks they are right in everything.. It won't be my last
come on man, stop trying to defend your sin
I know it is easy for legalists to do this, because they can not show weakness.. But open up man.. not everyone is against you.. many just disagree with you
Donald
Active Member
I've been to the Berlin wall in 1967 before it was tore down. I was in the US Army doing the last year of my enlistment. It was a lot of fun. Nam not so much.Your link above had a quote from Ray Stedman. Here is one of his sermons.
The Church that Lost its Love
Message: The Church that Lost its Love (Revelation 1:19 - 2:7)
What a wonderful week this has been! The whole world has been caught by surprise at the developments in Eastern Europe. New doors of freedom have opened there; even the barrier of the Berlin Wall has been set aside. It has been fascinating to watch. What struck me most was the universal reaction...
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
thank you for your service
synergy
Active Member
You don't include repentance (and the belief that accompanies repentance) as representative of genuine believers?
Again, repentance is not representative of genuine believers?
I'm sure there was no repentance on the part of Simon.Stated another way "those who… them… those" (Group 2) are not spoken of as born again, made holy or made righteous. On the other hand, none of the descriptions of Group 2 is ever used elsewhere in NT as a definite synonym for a saved person!
And this even includes "partakers of the Holy Spirit". Now if he had stated something like they are "those who possess the seal of the Spirit" or "those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit", etc, then we would know beyond a shadow of doubt that he was describing genuine believers.
Are there any examples of "Group 2" individuals seen anywhere in Scripture? Clearly, the answer is yes, the prime example being Judas Iscariot, who even his fellow disciples did not suspect. Was Judas not enlightened? Absolutely, for he traveled for 3 years in the company of the very One Who described Himself as the Light of the World (John 8:12). Judas Iscariot was like "those who" were not in darkness concerning the way of salvation. He had been enlightened but he rejected the light and he gave the Son of God over to be crucified by evil men (compare verse 6 "… since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.")
Another vivid example is seen in Acts 8 in Simon Magus of the city of Samaria. Luke records (read all of chapter 8 to get the proper context) that when Simon witnessed the miracles of Paul and the response to Philip's preaching of the good news…
even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip; and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. (Acts 8:13-see commentary)
Remembering that Acts is a transitional book (from Old Covenant to New Covenant), we read Luke's explanation that these new believers had not yet received the promised Holy Spirit although they had received (accepted deliberately and readily) the Word of God. And so the apostles in Jerusalem sent Peter and John who came to Samaria and prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit.
For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,
19 saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."
20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!
21 "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.
22 "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
23 "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."
24 But Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me." (Acts 8:16-24+)
Clearly Simon had believed but like the demons who believe, he lacked a saving belief as the subsequent events demonstrated. He shared in the experience of the Holy Spirit but there is no direct statement that he ever received the Holy Spirit. In fact Peter's strong words clearly reflect that he did not think Simon was saved.
Finally, Jesus Himself described those who had experienced incredible spiritual power but failed to experience Jesus Himself…
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does (present tense - HABITUALLY, NOT PERFECTION BUT AT LEAST "DIRECTION" - AKA "HEAVENWARD" AND NOT THE CONVERSE) the will of My Father who is in heaven.
22 "Many (NOTE THIS SAD WORD "MANY") will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' (NOTE: HE DOES NOT DISPUTE THAT THEY DID THESE THINGS - WE KNOW JUDAS CARRIED OUT SUPERNATURAL ACTS BUT HE WAS NOT SAVED. CLEARLY SUPERNATURAL ACTS DO NOT SAVE. ONLY GENUINE FAITH IN JESUS SAVES!)
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE (present tense = as their habitual practice, they have never manifested any evidence or fruit of a changed behavior in keeping with true repentance and faith.) LAWLESSNESS.' (Mt 7:21-23- notes Matthew 7:21; 7:22; 7:23)
Hebrews 6:4-5 Commentary | Precept Austin
God bless @mailmandan.
J.
Donald
Active Member
Thanks, back then we were just Kids and didn't really have a choice. I go the the VA hospital where I live and when I see young Fathers there missing both lower leas with their wife and little kids, it breaks my heart.
It's a lot different the seeing a picture.@Johann a dear brother
Many years ago, maybe almost forty years ago was asked to come to West Virginia to preach for a weekend ~ a very poor state with many uneducated folks, but the most loving people anyone would ever want to meet. I felt right at home not being educated myself, and coming from a poor upbringing.
An older saint there asked me about Hebrews 6, but first she gave me her understanding, and I said to myself, Blessed be God for this dear old saint has just opened my eyes to the truth concerning a very hard text for some of this world's greatest theologians, that most of them never came to the understanding of Hebrews 6.
It is impossible according to the Hebrews writer to start back over again, and again, and again, laying the same foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ that those folks have heard a thousand times over! By doing so, the saint are not going on unto perfection and unto the meat of the word of God! Context is king and if we stay with the context, these scriptures open right up for us! Thank you most blessed God of heaven for your truth hidden from the wise and prudent and revealed unto babes like us.
Greetings brother Johann,
Many years ago, maybe almost forty years ago was asked to come to West Virginia to preach for a weekend ~ a very poor state with many uneducated folks, but the most loving people anyone would ever want to meet. I felt right at home not being educated myself, and coming from a poor upbringing.
An older saint there asked me about Hebrews 6, but first she gave me her understanding, and I said to myself, Blessed be God for this dear old saint has just opened my eyes to the truth concerning a very hard text for some of this world's greatest theologians, that most of them never came to the understanding of Hebrews 6.
She said to me, Brother Red, in our day, preachers are guilty of going against what is taught here in Hebrews 6:1-6, "by preaching the same old message month after month trying to get folks back where they started, but had backsliding, and have left their so-called first love" while the faithful sheep are never feed the word of God!"
It is impossible according to the Hebrews writer to start back over again, and again, and again, laying the same foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ that those folks have heard a thousand times over! By doing so, the saint are not going on unto perfection and unto the meat of the word of God! Context is king and if we stay with the context, these scriptures open right up for us! Thank you most blessed God of heaven for your truth hidden from the wise and prudent and revealed unto babes like us.
Connected with the first six verse of Hebrews 6, and it is clear as to what the writer is saying. Plus:
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Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
yes it is.. I am retired navy.coast guard.. I did not see action. But as a corpsman in the navy, I saw alot of the after affects..Thanks, back then we were just Kids and didn't really have a choice. I go the the VA hospital where I live and when I see young Fathers there missing both lower leas with their wife and little kids, it breaks my heart.
Jeff
Active Member
Corpsman are very good IMHO better than army medics
Donald
Active Member
YA but I'll take whatever I can get. But I have noticed at the VA retired Corpsman are the best at hitting the vain putting in IV's.
Johann
Active Member
@synergy -that was the one point, version, here is the other
Hebrews 6:4–6 (NASB95)
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Greek Grammar and Syntactical Analysis:
τοὺς ἅπαξ φωτισθέντας — “those who were once enlightened”; aorist passive participle of φωτίζω, pointing to a definite past experience, typically associated with conversion or baptism (cf. Hebrews 10:32).
γευσαμένους τῆς δωρεᾶς τῆς ἐπουρανίου — “having tasted the heavenly gift”; aorist middle participle of γεύομαι, indicating real experience, not a superficial one. Compare γευσάμενον θανάτου in Hebrews 2:9 where Christ “tasted death.”
μετόχους γενηθέντας Πνεύματος Ἁγίου — “having become partakers of the Holy Spirit”; aorist passive participle of γίνομαι, indicating a definitive transformation or participation.
καὶ καλὸν γευσαμένους θεοῦ ῥῆμα δυνάμεις τε μέλλοντος αἰῶνος — “and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come”; the parallel structure amplifies the genuine spiritual experience.
καὶ παραπεσόντας — “and have fallen away”; aorist active participle of παραπίπτω, used only here in the NT, meaning a decisive moral and spiritual fall.
ἀνακαινίζειν εἰς μετάνοιαν — “to renew again to repentance”; present active infinitive of ἀνακαινίζω, indicating an ongoing or repeated action that is no longer possible for them.
Early Church Witnesses:
Tertullian (On Modesty, 20): Argues from this text that post-baptismal sins-especially grievous ones-were not easily remitted.
Origen (Homilies on Hebrews, Fragments): Interprets this passage as referring to baptized believers who willfully reject Christ, warning that their return is extremely difficult but not absolutely impossible.
Counter to Non-Salvific Interpretation:
PreceptAustin argues that these individuals were “not saved in a salvific sense.” This view is untenable for several reasons:
The compound descriptions (enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Spirit) far exceed any peripheral or superficial exposure.
The use of γευσάμενοι and μετόχους elsewhere in Hebrews consistently refers to real spiritual participation (cf. Hebrews 3:1, 14).
There is no suggestion in the text that these were simply “close to conversion”; the grammar and context indicate they were regenerate.
II. Hebrews 10:26–29 (NASB95)
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Greek Grammar and Syntactical Analysis:
Ἑκουσίως γὰρ ἁμαρτανόντων ἡμῶν — “for if we go on sinning willfully”; present active participle of ἁμαρτάνω, with ἑκουσίως (willingly, deliberately), indicating a habitual, unrepentant attitude.
μετὰ τὸ λαβεῖν τὴν ἐπίγνωσιν τῆς ἀληθείας — “after receiving the knowledge of the truth”; aorist active infinitive of λαμβάνω, indicating a completed act of reception.
οὐκέτι περὶ ἁμαρτιῶν ἀπολείπεται θυσία — “there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins”; ἀπολείπεται (present passive), implying a present, ongoing lack.
τὸ αἷμα τῆς διαθήκης ἡγιάσθη — “the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified”; aorist passive of ἁγιάζω, showing the subject had been truly sanctified.
Exegetical Notes:
Verse 29 explicitly says the individual was sanctified by the blood of the covenant, which cannot apply to anyone except a true believer.
The tripartite description: “trampled under foot the Son of God,” “regarded the blood as unclean,” and “insulted the Spirit of grace” can only refer to apostasy from a position of real knowledge and sanctification.
Hebrews 6:4–6 and 10:26–29 refer not to hypothetical cases or superficial believers, but to real Christians who apostatize. These passages affirm that perseverance is not automatic and that warnings against falling away are directed at those genuinely in the covenant.
Interpretations denying this flatten the richness of the Greek grammar and the theological weight of the warnings.
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Brother, I am not trying to go along with the popular view just for its own sake. After carefully examining the grammar of the passage, this is what I believe to be correct. I simply cannot exegete this text any other way without doing injustice to God's word. At the same time, I do believe in eternal security and in the perseverance of the saints, though how perseverance is commonly understood is not really my concern here.
You have brought up one of those deeply paradoxical passages. On one hand, it appears that a believer in Christ could forfeit salvation. On the other hand, I could show you dozens of passages that affirm it is impossible for a true believer to be snatched out of Christ's hand.
I hope this gives some clarity. Scripture often speaks in paradoxes, both in triads and in paired tensions. We must rely on the Holy Spirit more than ever to rightly divide the word of truth and to walk carefully in what has been written.
Took me a while to put this together, hope you appreciate it.
Way too much disagreements on this forum brother.
Johann
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
We did everything prety much, a lot of stuff that we would not be authorized to do in civilian world.. I miss it but. Don’t
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
We practiced a lot in corporate school. On each other..lol. Yu tend to want to get good. So when the guy does you. He tries his best
Johann
Active Member
Donald
Active Member
Oh, that makes sense. Good to know. I know it had to be something. I just thought they had more experience. Thanks for the info.
synergy
Active Member
So works of the Law are no different than Charitable works of Love? Gal 5:6 says otherwise.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any strength, but faith working through love.
Mat 25:36 I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You? Or thirsty, and gave You drink?
If "eternal life" is part of your definition of salvation then Paul does talk about good works and their relationship to salvation.
Rom 2:5 But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who will render to each according to his works;
Rom 2:7 indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life.
Rom 2:8 But to those who indeed disobeying the truth out of self-seeking, and obeying unrighteousness, will be anger and wrath,
James 2:14 clearly shows that there is a relationship between good works and salvation.
False. He makes it clear in his conclusion what works he is talking about:
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.
Sure can. The Law didn't even exist during Abraham's time and yet he still did many good works that James 2 declares he was justified for.
False. How can works of the Law exist without the Law being present?
Eph 2:5-10 can align with Rom 3:28 only if the works mentioned in Eph 2:9 are works of the Law.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
We might. Nursed do not draw blood in hospitals Or in the field. We did.. I do not know how the army did it
synergy
Active Member
In 724, you said "even gentiles can keep the law better than they did". Rom 2:13-17 does not stop there. That "better" is that the Nations as doers of the Law will be justified. Do you believe Paul?
742 is my comment talking about other verses.
I never said that you "did not say something". In fact, you said enough, believe me.
If you wish to use that to bail out then I will understand.
Behold
Active Member
JUDE "fought" religious people who told Paul that he was "preaching license to sin"... so, in Paul's day, it was called "sin so that Grace will come".
Its been updated, as a phase in the last 50 yrs.
JUDE teaches that religious legalists.........(people who are trying to go to heaven by works) or (believers who dont trust in Christ to keep them saved), created this concept that is now known as "OSAS".
See, when you believe you can lose your salvation, its because the person does not trust in Christ alone, to keep them saved.
So, in that case, what are they trusting to get them to heaven, if they dont BELIEVE that once you are saved, Christ always keeps you saved?
So, this person, is trying to keep themselves saved, and so, they will reject any teaching that trusts in Jesus The Christ Alone who keeps you eternally saved.
So, the OSAS, is what JUDE stated, are these people who are trying to save themselves, or keep themselves saved... who dont want any True Gospel that has JESUS keeping them saved, so they say that if you have real trust in Christ to keep you saved, you are teaching that Jesus is the Savior, who keeps you saved and they reject that as OSAS.
They redefined "Jesus is eternal Savior" as "OSAS"... or "license to sin".
Its been updated, as a phase in the last 50 yrs.
JUDE teaches that religious legalists.........(people who are trying to go to heaven by works) or (believers who dont trust in Christ to keep them saved), created this concept that is now known as "OSAS".
See, when you believe you can lose your salvation, its because the person does not trust in Christ alone, to keep them saved.
So, in that case, what are they trusting to get them to heaven, if they dont BELIEVE that once you are saved, Christ always keeps you saved?
So, this person, is trying to keep themselves saved, and so, they will reject any teaching that trusts in Jesus The Christ Alone who keeps you eternally saved.
So, the OSAS, is what JUDE stated, are these people who are trying to save themselves, or keep themselves saved... who dont want any True Gospel that has JESUS keeping them saved, so they say that if you have real trust in Christ to keep you saved, you are teaching that Jesus is the Savior, who keeps you saved and they reject that as OSAS.
They redefined "Jesus is eternal Savior" as "OSAS"... or "license to sin".
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