Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

Rom 2:13-15 is talking about the Gentiles at the time of Paul. And for all others who, through no fault of their own, never heard of the Gospel nor the Law and yet still practiced the Law in their hearts. That will be to their credit in “a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel”. In this particular case, these "doers of the Law will be justified".

Are you sticking with Paul here?

your taking romans 12 out of context, He is talking to jews not gentiles

yes I do believe paul

those who are saved (have faith) by practice, because of their faith. do the law

Not to get saved (thats impossible)

Not to keep saved (that to is impossible)

bust because they are saved

 

[synergy]

actually this verse just states plainly. if a person can fall away. they can not be resaved (renewed to repentance. And saying you can fall away. puts christ to open shame

Jesus is not going to die again for the sin he did not die for the first time that caused you to lose salvation

Reread verse 6 again. It says “if they fall away”, not “saying you can fall away”. It’s an actual event, not a hypothetical thought. You failed the eye test for James 2:24 and it looks like you’re starting to do that same thing here with verse 6.

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[synergy]

your taking romans 12 out of context, He is talking to jews not gentiles

yes I do believe paul

those who are saved (have faith) by practice, because of their faith. do the law

Not to get saved (thats impossible)

Not to keep saved (that to is impossible)

bust because they are saved

So the Nations (Gentiles) had faith even though they only knew only about pagan gods???? Produce the verses that support your claim.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Reread verse 6 again. It says “if they fall away”, not “saying you can fall away”.

The word if can be seen muliple ways

1. If, and they will - if you go to work this morning, you will get paid
2. If and but they can't - if you fly to outer space like superman
3. If, maybe they will maybe they will not. If you believe in me you will never perish but live forever.

your missing the whole point of the context.

it is impossibe. what is impossible? falling away? No. it does not fit.

what is impossible is to renew a person to repentance IF they fell away.

Now the question comes. can they fall away, according to the law. yes.. According to grace no

The author is calling people who are thinking of going back to the law. not to go back..

It’s an actual event, not a hypothetical thought. You failed the eye test for James 2:24 and it looks like you’re starting to do that same thing here with verse 6.

6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Dude, your interpreting to fit your belief and not looking at the whole passage in context in both cases

you appear to be here to push your view, not discuss.. You can not help anyone if that is all you are going to do. you just attack them..

good luck with that

 

[synergy]

your stuck on James

your stuck on 5 verses (which was not written in verse form) and pitting them against the rest of the word.

You need to find another fall to verse. because you messed up the f you are trying to use, because you ignore the root argument James was making. these are people who SAY they have faith. but they have no works. Can that "said or clamed' faith save them

You still don’t have an answer for James 2:14-28, I see. Your inability to harmonize James 2:14-28 with your presuppositions is on display for all to see.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So the Nations (Gentiles) had faith even though they only knew only about pagan gods???? Produce the verses that support your claim.

I am tryign to be honest here. and trying to hold it together. but you are very frustrating

Have you read romans chapter 2. who is the whole chapter directed at?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You still don’t have an answer for James 2:14-28, I see. Your inability to harmonize James 2:14-28 with your presuppositions is on display for all to see.

Dude, I answered james so many times I lost count

If you do not agree. thats fine, move on

but do not sit there and LIE and say I have not done something

I will report you if you continue this nonsense.

this is a discussion chatroom.

You do not lie about others and they have not done something, because it does not satisfy your belief system..

 

[synergy]

The word if can be seen muliple ways

1. If, and they will - if you go to work this morning, you will get paid
2. If and but they can't - if you fly to outer space like superman
3. If, maybe they will maybe they will not. If you believe in me you will never perish but live forever.

your missing the whole point of the context.

I'll stick with “if they fall away”, just like the Apostle meant it, and avoid all these recombination and reordering of words that you so freely fall into.

it is impossibe. what is impossible? falling away? No. it does not fit.

what is impossible is to renew a person to repentance IF they fell away.

Depends to what extent they fell away. We all fall away occasionally but we don't go on a rampage openly and persistently bad-mouthing Jesus.

Now the question comes. can they fall away, according to the law. yes.. According to grace no

The author is calling people who are thinking of going back to the law. not to go back..

Produce the passages that supports your statements.

Dude, your interpreting to fit your belief and not looking at the whole passage in context in both cases

you appear to be here to push your view, not discuss.. You can not help anyone if that is all you are going to do. you just attack them..

good luck with that

You're the one who recombines and reorders words to suit himself. Can't you just read the verse exactly as it is written?

 

[synergy]

I am tryign to be honest here. and trying to hold it together. but you are very frustrating

Have you read romans chapter 2. who is the whole chapter directed at?

Again, Rom 2:13-17 is talking to Believers about Nations, plain and simple. Those doers of the Law will be justified. Do you see that in the following verses:

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,
Rom 2:16 in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Do you agree with Paul?

 

[Studyman]

@Studyman

Never have I said that one should drink blood, eat maggots!

There is no difference, according to God's Judgment as shown in the Bible, between drinking blood, eating maggots or eating swine's flesh, fornication, idolatry, eating animals that die of itself, or strangled etc. We are instructed by God to "Abstain" from such behavior.

If the Gentiles in Acts 15 were accustomed to the tradition of eating swine's flesh, instead of drinking blood, Paul would have told them to "Abstain from eating swine's flesh", which is instruction from the Same God in the Same Book through the Same Chose Prophet of God.

The apostles were not promoting "their own" judgments here were they when they directed the Gentiles who turned to God, to "Abstain" from what God defined as Sinful practices"?? They were promoting God's Judgments. You can find God's judgments when you become a "Doer" of the Christ's Sayings, and "Seek the righteousness of God", like Paul did.

This is simply the "milk" of the Word, and undeniably true.

So you are presenting a Strawman argument ~ now concerning eating pork, I can enjoy, once I offer unto God thanksgiving for all of the blessings of heaven that he has been pleased to provide for us tp eat with thanksgiving.

1 Timothy 4:3​

“Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

But you are omitting the most important part of Paul's teaching here.

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 "Speaking lies in hypocrisy"; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

So in your religion, is God's Word the seducing spirit? Why did the Apostles tell the Gentiles to "Abstain" from consuming the blood of beasts? Was this their own Judgment? Or were they promoting the Words of God Jesus said to Live by?

Please answer this question.

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created "to be received" with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

According to the rebellious Jews, it was a Sin to serve milk and meat on the same table, or eat bread without first washing their hands a certain way. (And many other such things they do) It was a Sin for a Jew to marry someone that wasn't born with a certain DNA. God's Law doesn't teach any of these things.

Where did God say HE created animal blood "to be received to eat, with thanksgiving"? Or where did God ever say HE created Swine's flesh "to be received with thanksgiving"?

But what does the Lord actually say:

Lev. 17: 10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

Lev. 1: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying unto them, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth. 7 And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.

45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: 47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.


The Jesus "of the Bible" Lived by These Words, and instructed me to "Live by" these Words as well. Have you been convinced by someone, that these Words are spoken by "seducing spirits", and are "doctrines of devils";

I know that Paul is NOT teaching what you are attributing to him here.

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.”

Yes, of coarse, Every Creature, "which God hath created to be received" with thanksgiving is Good. "For it is sanctified "by the word of God" and prayer.”

But God did not create "swine" to be received as food. Or snails, or snakes, or dogs etc.

Does it matter, I think each person will make that determination for themselves. But the reason why I reply to your posts, is not because you eat pork, but because you wrangle Paul's teaching to justify your rejection of God's Judgments.

He is not teaching that God's Laws are "seducing spirits", and are "doctrines of devils".

He is not teaching that God's Laws are NOT Holy, Just and Good.

But that is the very foundation of your teaching. That God's Laws are "Beggarly Elements" , "rudiments of this world" and a "Yoke of Bondage".

It seems prudent to show this to others, so they too, might Take Heed of such a religious philosophy.

 

[GodsGrace]

please look at what I highlighted.

what if someone SAYS they have faith..

can THAT professed faith save him.

all of James words are based on these words.. Because James is going to answer that question. and while doing it. He is going to explain why and what they should do.. (show me your faith.. I will prove my faith)


for a christian no longer under law. It would be called the law of liberty.

it does not matter what law. the curse of the law is we are spiritually dead.. The wage of sin is death.

the first thing we need saved from is out sin debt, our curse. or our condemnation. this is called Justification

before this happens. nothing else matters.

After this happen. God is spending the rest of our lives growing us in him (sanctification)

He is not really teaching about them,. He is asking about them/. If they say they have faith, but has no works. can THAT faith save them



You example is not correct. The example you used shows a future possibility

James spoke of a past action that was already completed.

the people James are calling out already said they had faith

If I said I had a paying job, but I do not work. can that Job sustain me

so in this example. I claimed I had a job, but reality is I do not go to that job, and am not working.. so since I am not working and not getting paid. can that Job that I claimed I had sustain me financially

of course not.. Because while I said I had a job, the reality is I did not.

Hope this helps explain as it is the same

1. a person said they had faith (does not mean they did)
2. All people who have faith will work
3. These people have no work (hence,. like the person who had no job)
4. So can this stated faith they claim they have save them?

the answer in both examples is no


agree. and what I said is true

they said they had faith.. I showed what this meant in the greek.

good is not in the greek. nor is the word evidence.

not completely

Now this is saying something totally different than what James said. James did not say anything even close to this

His point is about the faith. can that faith they said they had save them

its not about works. it about faith.

is your faith real, living, or is it dead.

I can not look at you and determine if you have saving faith or not.. I do not know your life.

But you can test your own faith,. are you a hearer not a doer. or are you a hearer and a doer.







And a dead faith can not save, because it is not living

We are saved by grace through faith not works.

So if works are required. then James is contradicting paul. there is no way to get around this

No

Now your adding to the text something James is not saying



correct.

trye faith works

so a person with living faith is saved by grace.

the result of that faith and salvation is good works.

yes. if you stopped here we would be in 100 % agreement

No. here is where you get off track

we are justified by Grace through faith not works

We can not lose justification with a lack of works. if works can not save us.

it is an apposed saying

You can not earn salvation by works. but if you do not do works, you will lose salvation. those are contradictory terms.



how good is good enough. how much obedience saved, how much disobedience disqualifies us.

It's never good enough.
Holy just means to be set aside for service to God.
There's always more to do.
There are too many needs in this world.
We can't handle them all.
We should do what we beleive the Holy Spirit is telling us to do....
and not fret about what we cannot do.
Bono tried to save the world...he looks like an 80 year man,
instead of 60.

But I'll tell you this:
I was on a Forum (I think you know which one) where a member actually stated
that after salvation a person could blaspheme the Holy Spirit and still be saved.

On THIS very forum....very recently, a member stated that we are saved
by justificaiton by faith without works or commandment keeping. (not a Calvinist).

This is shocking.
And this is the end result of the teaching of OSAS.

going off of what you just said here. You need to answer those questions. Or you can never know if you worked hard enough. you could never be secure

a dog is an unbeliever

he can play a different creature. and even act that way, but he is still a dog

a dog will return to his vomit because he is a dog.

I do not see anything about the tax collector in Matt 18

 

[synergy]

Dude, I answered james so many times I lost count

If you do not agree. thats fine, move on

but do not sit there and LIE and say I have not done something

I will report you if you continue this nonsense.

this is a discussion chatroom.

You do not lie about others and they have not done something, because it does not satisfy your belief system..

Produce the quote where I said that you "have not done something". You've done enough, believe me. Go ahead and report that statement but you will have to support your allegations.

Speaking of misrepresenting me, I am not "stuck on James" nor am I "stuck on 5 verses". I have produced many quotes from Paul himself to support Biblical truths. But I'm not going to report you because it's not about me nor you. It's about the Bible. So if you can't read Bible verses exactly as they are written then you attack the Bible, not me. That allows me to remain rational. Is that possible for you?

You are free to run away also. Your choice.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I'll stick with “if they fall away”, just like the Apostle meant it, and avoid all these recombination and reordering of words that you so freely fall into.

You do not even know what the apostle meant. Your assuming you know.

Depends to what extent they fell away. We all fall away occasionally but we don't go on a rampage openly and persistently bad-mouthing Jesus.

It says if they fall away they can not be renewed.

did you not just tell me I need to take him at his word,. now here you are not taking him at his word actually adding to it)

Produce the passages that supports your statements.

You're the one who recombines and reorders words to suit himself. Can't you just read the verse exactly as it is written?

Yet you did that very thing in your second line

you make me laugh I will give you that much,,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Again, Rom 2:13-17 is talking to Believers about Nations, plain and simple. Those doers of the Law will be justified. Do you see that in the following verses:

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,
Rom 2:16 in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Do you agree with Paul?

lol

Same old song and dance

broken record.

I will move on.. I already explained this multiple times Like I did james.

you repeating the same old things over and over will not change that..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It's never good enough.
Holy just means to be set aside for service to God.
There's always more to do.
There are too many needs in this world.
We can't handle them all.
We should do what we beleive the Holy Spirit is telling us to do....
and not fret about what we cannot do.
Bono tried to save the world...he looks like an 80 year man,
instead of 60.

But I'll tell you this:
I was on a Forum (I think you know which one) where a member actually stated
that after salvation a person could blaspheme the Holy Spirit and still be saved.

On THIS very forum....very recently, a member stated that we are saved
by justificaiton by faith without works or commandment keeping. (not a Calvinist).

This is shocking.
And this is the end result of the teaching of OSAS.

you did not read a thing I said did you.

Again, You want to try to keep yourself saved by works. feel free. do not let me stop you.. I will wish you luck, Because in my heart I know no matter how hard you work. you will fail to do what you want.

But if you want to continue to falsely accuse me of things.. then like your brother. there is really not much more we can say.

study the jews. Study why they rejected christ

Study why Christ rejected them and told them all their great deeds will not save them..

then look to self. and ask yourself the same questions. Is jesus talking to you also?

because when I see the jew. and I see you. I see different forms of religious teaching. But I see the same gospel

its all about me and what I do. not about god and what he did

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Produce the quote where I said that you "have not done something". You've done enough, believe me. Go ahead and report that statement but you will have to support your allegations.

here you go. telling me I did not do something I already did

You still don’t have an answer for James 2:14-28,

I just supported my allegations with proof. Keep it up. and i will do what I promised I would do.

Speaking of misrepresenting me, I am not "stuck on James" nor am I "stuck on 5 verses". I have produced many quotes from Paul himself to support Biblical truths. But I'm not going to report you because it's not about me nor you. It's about the Bible. So if you can't read Bible verses exactly as they are written then you attack the Bible, not me. That allows me to remain rational. Is that possible for you?

You are free to run away also. Your choice.

lol. Dude you are to proud. run away from what?



and by the way it is about you

Your works
Your good deeds
Your knowledge of the word (as apposed to mine)

I tell my disicplers all the time, when your discussing things, and you start using the words I or my or praising and boasting in self. you need to repent... Because you have stopped talking about God

 

[armylngst]

Actually army,,,I don't state anything.
I post scripture.
Scripture is making the statement.

Reread what you yourself wrote. You said that I made a statement about scripture, and you made a statement. It is there. You said you stated something. I just said, thank God that doesn't matter. Scripture speaks for itself. What did Jesus tell these lawless people, clearly, succinctly, without stuttering. I... have... NEVER... known... you. Jesus is VERY clear. He never had a relationship with them, He never fellowshiped with them, etc. They were never saved to begin with. It is VERY clear. That is why I said, it isn't who you claim to know, it is who knows you. It's like the clingy guy who hangs around with some celebrity, and when they get to the night club door, that celebrity tells the bouncer that he doesn't know the guy. They were never friends. He is just clingy and won't go away.

The burden is on me to prove that "THEY" were saved in the first place?

Yes. That's how reasoning works, and God did say, "Come, let us reason together". I can't prove a negative assertion, which would be to prove they weren't saved. I can, however, undermine the premise of your argument, which makes your argument unsound.

Let's see what Jesus states about "THEY":

I'm waiting for what Jesus stated about they. I will give you a hint and tell you that everything you posted past here had nothing to do with they.
"21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

What did Jesus state about they? "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you..." He never knew them. That is what Jesus states of "they". When reading the passage above, there is no mention of prodigal sons, or soils, so your argument is flawed. When you are going to tell us what Jesus states about "they", you have to tell us what Jesus states about "they". Did the prodigal son prophesy in Jesus name? Cast out demons in Jesus name? Do many wonders in Jesus name? How about the rocky soil? No? Neither of them did? Then it is not Jesus stating about "they". Completely unrelated. As for lawlessness, that is sin, which is not keeping God's standard/law, which is lawlessness. Depart for Him, you sinners/you who practice lawlessness/you workers of iniquity. Those whose lives are devoted to sin, who practice sin. That is the sign of a non-believer. Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will be able to sneak by Christ, as not all who say 'Lord, Lord' actually recognize Him as Lord. If you are one who practices lawlessness, you do not recognize Jesus as Lord.

First of all, by stating that Jesus is saying the Prodigal Son was saved, became unsaved, and was saved again, is to say that Jesus claims the Father to be a liar. What does Hebrews clearly state about this situation? If someone is "saved" (as you seem to define the passage in Hebrews) and "falls away", there is no place of repentance for them. There is no more sacrifice. God will not sacrifice His Son again, and put His Son to open shame. Your statement has God putting His Son to open shame. GOD WILL NOT DO THAT. If you become apostate, you are damned without hope. The only hope is that you were never saved in the first place, and you have not outright, with finality, rejected the gospel. (Hebrews again.)

As for the soil, notice how there is no root. These people hang around the church, they "believe" what they here, but when it comes down to it, the gospel has never taken root, they have never come to salvation. Simply stated. The only soil that speaks to one who is saved is the good soil. God can change the other soils into good soil, but it doesn't mean He will.

 

[armylngst]

sadly

some are stuck in theology, or following this ism or that ism.

so everything they say or do is either to support their particular sin (calvinism, armenianism, catholicism etc etc) or to attack the ISM they are fighting against.

an example is an arminian who will not give heed to any of calvins 5 points of tulip. so at all costs he must attack it

One of these points is P or perseverance of the saints (Which I disagree 100 % on. a saint does not persevere. God keeps us) But since the term OSAS is tight to this point. they will attack OSAS or anything associated with it at all cost.

you witness this in here even as we speak sadly

There is nothing to be found in the five points of Calvinism but pointers. A distilling of what John Calvin supposedly taught. (It may be what he taught, but it was his followers who came up with the points, just as it was Arminius followers who came up with the remonstrances. When it came to perseverance of the saints, at least Arminius follower's were honest and said they weren't sure what Arminius believed/taught, and they need to study the Bible more.) I believe OSAS is wrong, because it has no focus on God, but on an event and on self. If you can make the claim, right or wrong, once saved, always saved. Check the box.

On Perseverance of the Saints, I believe the word OF in that statement speaks to the saints being persevered, which is why some say it is better termed, preservation of the saints. The issue with OSAS is it is devoid of agency. It just states if A is true, B is true. There are no other inputs. In perseverance of the Saints, Saints go in and Saints come out because they are being persevered/preserved. It speaks to process, not state of salvation. It removes the possibility of the Saint living in a pattern of sin. That person is not a Saint, and is most certainly not being persevered/preserved. (Persevered meaning an external agency/agent is the enabler. God in this case.)

This is my take.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There is nothing to be found in the five points of Calvinism but pointers. A distilling of what John Calvin supposedly taught. (It may be what he taught, but it was his followers who came up with the points, just as it was Arminius followers who came up with the remonstrances. When it came to perseverance of the saints, at least Arminius follower's were honest and said they weren't sure what Arminius believed/taught, and they need to study the Bible more.) I believe OSAS is wrong, because it has no focus on God, but on an event and on self. If you can make the claim, right or wrong, once saved, always saved. Check the box.

On Perseverance of the Saints, I believe the word OF in that statement speaks to the saints being persevered, which is why some say it is better termed, preservation of the saints. The issue with OSAS is it is devoid of agency. It just states if A is true, B is true. There are no other inputs. In perseverance of the Saints, Saints go in and Saints come out because they are being persevered/preserved. It speaks to process, not state of salvation. It removes the possibility of the Saint living in a pattern of sin. That person is not a Saint, and is most certainly not being persevered/preserved. (Persevered meaning an external agency/agent is the enabler. God in this case.)

This is my take.

I can see this..

Thats why I would rather just stick to the word.

OSAS in my view is that once I was saved by God through his grace and mercy, I am saved forever. But I like eternal life or eternal security much better.

Preservation of the saints I guess is ok.. but still it is just a term.. and againm I prefer eternal life and or eternal security in christ

Sadly. Its people make it aout arminian vs calvin. They forget there are many others out there that hold to neither of these views.

 

[synergy]

You do not even know what the apostle meant. Your assuming you know.

It says if they fall away they can not be renewed.

did you not just tell me I need to take him at his word,. now here you are not taking him at his word actually adding to it)

Yet you did that very thing in your second line

you make me laugh I will give you that much,,

The passage does not end there. You forgot about the rest of the passage. So let's continue to its end which says "since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame." That's the falling away that will make it impossible to renew them again to repentance. Do you believe scripture?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.

BTW, I'm still waiting for your verse that supports your statement: Now the question comes. can they fall away, according to the law. yes.. According to grace no