Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[praise_yeshua]

Sure you can. Psalm 19:12 shows the psalmist asking God to "forgive me of my hidden faults".

His thoughts were not hidden from God....

Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

You're hiding thoughts from everyone yourself. You can't hide them from God. The Psalmist knew this. You don't. Read it again.

I don't have that authority because I am God's Son! I am not the Christ. But I do have His mandate to watch those who call themselves my brothers and sisters in Christ and help to point out faults they have (as do ALL who are in Christ). We are called to continually be on our guard against false doctrines in the Church, and to teach the truth. Thus I do have the mandate from God to point out your false doctrines.

That is such an empty argument. It is nothing more than self assertion. Though I believe I'm right, I don't call God down into my arguments. They are mine. I say they are mine. I don't have any authority. You don't either.

 

[Doug Brents]

I didn't say those exact words and your changes to what I said betray your intent.

Thoughts don't save. Can we move on now?

What was your intent then? You said that you were saved before you were baptized (Post 3417). Scripture says that you cannot be saved before you are baptized (John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.). So clearly you were mistaken in your feeling and understanding.

You are right, thoughts don't save; faith (which requires action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26)) does (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[praise_yeshua]

What was your intent then? You said that you were saved before you were baptized (Post 3417). Scripture says that you cannot be saved before you are baptized (John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.). So clearly you were mistaken in your feeling and understanding.

You are right, thoughts don't save; faith (which requires action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26)) does (Eph 2:8-9).

I'm sure you the arbitrator of what actions are required.... right?

I don't accept generic references such as you're providing. I've read those words many times before. Copy and paste doesn't work on me.

I'm not going to get into this on this thread. Invite me to one about the subject.

 

[Doug Brents]

I'm sure you the arbitrator of what actions are required.... right?

Nope. God is. And He told us what actions are required in the Scriptures.
Acts 3:19 - Repent so that you can be forgiven
Rom 10:9-10 - Confess Jesus as Lord so that you can receive salvation
John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14 - Baptism is the point at which we die to sin/receive eternal life/are reborn/are saved

I don't accept generic references such as you're providing. I've read those words many times before. Copy and paste doesn't work on me.

I'm not going to get into this on this thread. Invite me to one about the subject.

There are many threads on this forum on which I have debated this topic. Pick one and we can continue. OSAS does bear on the necessity of baptism for salvation, because many proponents of OSAS also purport "faith only salvation", and their argument reads something like, "since we didn't do anything to receive our salvation, nothing we do can cause us to lose our salvation", which is a false statement all around.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Nope. God is. And He told us what actions are required in the Scriptures.
Acts 3:19 - Repent so that you can be forgiven
Rom 10:9-10 - Confess Jesus as Lord so that you can receive salvation
John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14 - Baptism is the point at which we die to sin/receive eternal life/are reborn/are saved

There are many threads on this forum on which I have debated this topic. Pick one and we can continue. OSAS does bear on the necessity of baptism for salvation, because many proponents of OSAS also purport "faith only salvation", and their argument reads something like, "since we didn't do anything to receive our salvation, nothing we do can cause us to lose our salvation", which is a false statement all around.

Your primary problem is believing that God is speaking to you personally when you read what God said to others as recorded in the Scriptures.

Why is that? You're not even part of the conversation and yet you endless pretend you are.

Why is that? You must first understood who is part of the verses you reference.

How about a video debate? That would be easier for me and quicker. Easy debate.

 

[Doug Brents]

Your primary problem is believing that God is speaking to you personally when you read what God said to others as recorded in the Scriptures.

Why is that? You're not even part of the conversation and yet you endless pretend you are.

Why is that? You must first understood who is part of the verses you reference.

Quite a lot of Scripture (the NT especially), while directed originally at the ancient audience, is also directed at us. John 3:5 for instance says that NO ONE (meaning not only Nicodemus but everyone living between Jesus' statement and today (and into the future)) can enter the Kingdom of God without being reborn of water and the Spirit (both).

The purpose of having things like the conversion of the Ethiopian Eunuch, Saul, the Corinthian Jailer, and others recorded in Scripture is to give examples and instruction on how things are and how they must be done in God's Kingdom.

There certainly are some places in the NT Scripture where a command or statement only applies to the direct audience (the command to the "rich young ruler" for instance), but for the most part (and unless there is clear and compelling reason to believe otherwise) commands and statements in Scripture are applicable to us today just as they were to the original audience.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Quite a lot of Scripture (the NT especially), while directed originally at the ancient audience, is also directed at us. John 3:5 for instance says that NO ONE (meaning not only Nicodemus but everyone living between Jesus' statement and today (and into the future)) can enter the Kingdom of God without being reborn of water and the Spirit (both).

Water does give life but not how you're referencing it. There is nothing in this narrative that establishes that the process of baptism is the "water" event Jesus is talking about. That your conflation.

The purpose of having things like the conversion of the Ethiopian Eunuch, Saul, the Corinthian Jailer, and others recorded in Scripture is to give examples and instruction on how things are and how they must be done in God's Kingdom.

All examples of your conflation. Sure, they obeyed the appeal to baptism but they obeyed other things as well that weren't necessary for salvation. Things you're not including here.

The Ethiopian Eunuch literally said that he couldn't understand Isaiah without Phillip. That was Phillips issue. Not my issue. I didn't need Phillip to preach to me Jesus.

So, why don't you require Phillip to be part of salvation?

What about the words of Isaiah? Are they required for me as well?

You're falsely requiring water baptism while leaving out other portions of the salvation experiences of these references? How about Saul? Do I need to wait on Ananias?

You're not qualified to baptize anyone. You seem to believe you can just say you are and "poof" you are....

God sent John The Baptist. Jesus sent the apostles. You're not either of them.

 

[Gabby]

This sounds like works salvation and it's results.

10 Who is among you who [reverently] fears the Lord, who obeys the voice of His Servant, yet who walks in darkness and deep trouble and has no shining splendor [in his heart]? Let him rely on, trust in, and be confident in the name of the Lord, and let him lean upon and be supported by his God.

11 Behold, all you [enemies of your own selves] who attempt to kindle your own fires [and work out your own plans of salvation], who surround and gird yourselves with momentary sparks, darts, and firebrands that you set aflame!—walk by the light of your self-made fire and of the sparks that you have kindled [for yourself, if you will]! But this shall you have from My hand: you shall lie down in grief and in torment.
Isaiah 50:11

 

[FreeInChrist]

Ah, so you believe people can save themselves, or that there are those out there who do not require Jesus at all to be saved, but can simply waltz into heaven. Nice. What total depravity says is that every part of man is sinful.

What this means is that God's original intent in creating man to begin with was to make man as a bundle of sin.

Every part of man has been corrupted by sin.

Made by his creator, that way.

There is no righteousness to be found in man outside of Christ/salvation.

But here is the rub. ON THIS EVERY SINGLE "true" CHRISTIAN knows this to be true.

But the difference in how said "true" Christian comes to his/her personal faith is the issue.

You believe that without the Father putting the desire in you... IOW "electing" you it is impossible.

I believe that the Father not only is capable, but has instilled in every human being a desire... so to speak that allows
everyone to watch, look and listen and then make their own choice what road they will follow.

NO IT ISNT... My beliefs are NOT predestined ones at all.

Through out the bible we read of those who were taught. We read of those who believed. We read of those who hungered for a baptism. (Eunuch) We rea of those who are who are caught in a turmoil and are in the presence of truly predestined men
who this person asked " “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30).... and the simple reply 31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

What did the jailer mean by his statement? As a heathen Roman (cf. Alford, 1980, 2:184), he no doubt had been exposed to Greek/Roman mythology his entire life. Christianity had been introduced into Macedonia only days earlier when Paul arrived in Philippi (16:12; cf. Ramsay, p. 215). So it is unlikely that he possessed more than a cursory understanding of the Christian notion of salvation from sin. But events occurred in those days leading up to his conversion that may account for the jailer’s question.

Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” And this she did for many days (Acts 16:16-18, emp. added).

Observe that the demon within the girl announced to the citizens of Philippi over a period of “many days” the fact that Paul and Silas were representatives of the one true God, and that they possessed the information that would show people the way to salvation. In all likelihood, the jailer would have heard this declaration either firsthand or through the reports of friends, neighbors, relatives, or other townspeople.

When Paul finally expelled the demon from the girl, her irate masters assaulted him and Silas, dragged them before the magistrates of the city, and subjected them to the legal proceedings that ultimately landed them in the prison where they encountered the jailer. It is not out of the realm of possibility that the jailer was privy to these proceedings, which surely would have included reference to their alleged identity as “servants of the Most High God” who had information pertaining to “the way of salvation.”

A third means by which the jailer could have come into possession of sufficient information that would account for the phrasing of his question can be seen in verse 25: “But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them.” The jailer may well have heard the hymns that Paul and Silas sang—songs that would have included references to God, Christ, and salvation.

These three circumstances may account for the jailer’s request to be informed about salvation—albeit, even then, his understanding must have been very piecemeal. Paul’s response to the jailer’s question was: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household” (vs. 31). What did Paul mean by this statement? If he meant what many within Christendom think he meant, that is, if the jailer already knew who Jesus was, and if Paul was urging him simply to believe (i.e., simply to “accept Christ into his heart as his personal savior”), then we should next expect the text to provide the jailer’s response—something to the effect that the jailer accepted Jesus Christ as his savior, or that he believed on Jesus right then and there and was saved.

However, to the contrary, the text says: “Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him” (vs. 32). Why? Didn’t Paul just do that by telling the jailer to believe? Apparently not! Paul later wrote that “faith comes by hearing…the word of God” (Romans 10:17). So the jailer needed to hear additional information that would enable him to know what it means to believe in Jesus. It follows, then, that the instruction, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” was simply a broad, sweeping statement intended to redirect the jailer’s then-present religious attachment to the pagan gods of Greek/Roman mythology toward the true object of belief—Christ. It was a way to reorient the jailer’s thinking in the direction of Jesus, as contrasted with his own pagan notions. But simply telling the jailer (or anyone today) to “believe on Jesus” does not provide sufficient information on how to believe. In other words, there is more to “believing on Jesus” than simply affirming in one’s mind that Jesus is Lord and Savior (a fact readily conceded even by Satan and the demons—Genesis 3:15; Matthew 4:3,6; Luke 22:31; Hebrews 2:14; James 2:19; Revelation 12:4ff.).

It was only in speaking the word of the Lord to the jailer that he could understand who Christ is, what Christianity is about, and the proper response to the preached Word—i.e., what it means to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” Since the jailer could not be saved before Paul spoke the Word of the Lord to him, observe the sequence of events that the text reports immediately after the Word was spoken to him.

-------------------
Now the jailer was not predestined as his conversion and belief did not come until he expressed a desire of wanting to be saved.

He had heard the "good news" and in these circumstances understood that what he had heard was correct and
made an informed decision by his own choice.

They are totally depraved, and as such incapable of saving themselves. This is what Jesus is saying when in response to "then who can be saved", He said "With man it is impossible..." full stop on man. Impossible. Not improbable, or may not happen. IMPOSSIBLE. However, "WITH GOD" it becomes possible.

 

[Doug Brents]

Water does give life but not how you're referencing it. There is nothing in this narrative that establishes that the process of baptism is the "water" event Jesus is talking about. That your conflation.

No, it is not. 1 Pet 3:21 says that we are saved through baptism in water by the actions of the Spirit. John 3:5 says we cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being reborn of water and the Spirit. Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14 both say that we lose our sin and are united to Christ in baptism, where we are resurrected by the same Spirit that resurrected Jesus. There is no conflation there.

All examples of your conflation. Sure, they obeyed the appeal to baptism but they obeyed other things as well that weren't necessary for salvation. Things you're not including here.

There are only three actions in Scripture that it says LEAD TO or RESULT IN our receiving salvation. Nothing else is necessary.

The Ethiopian Eunuch literally said that he couldn't understand Isaiah without Phillip. That was Phillips issue. Not my issue. I didn't need Phillip to preach to me Jesus.

So, why don't you require Phillip to be part of salvation?

Philip isn't part of salvation. The Scriptures are. And as Rom 10:14-15 says, how can they believe without a preacher. It sometimes takes a preacher to explain the Gospel, as Philip did, so that the student can come to a right understanding of what is written.

What about the words of Isaiah? Are they required for me as well?

Again, no. The words of Isaiah point toward the Christ. The whole of the OT points forward toward Jesus. The whole of the NT points back toward Jesus.

You're falsely requiring water baptism while leaving out other portions of the salvation experiences of these references? How about Saul? Do I need to wait on Ananias?

We need a preacher/teacher (as all who are saved are called to be in Matt 28:19). It doesn't have to be Ananias, but it does need to be someone to teach and then baptize.

You're not qualified to baptize anyone. You seem to believe you can just say you are and "poof" you are....

God sent John The Baptist. Jesus sent the apostles. You're not either of them.

God sent all who come to Him. Read Matt 28:18-20:
"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
This command is part of what Jesus commanded the Apostles to teach to their students, which means that their students would then teach this same thing to their students... all the way down to you and me. So we have been given authority by Jesus, who has ALL authority, to go, make students, baptize them into Christ, and then teach them to continue the cycle.

So yes, I am qualified to baptize people (I just baptized my oldest daughter into Christ this last Sunday).

 

[armylngst]

What this means is that God's original intent in creating man to begin with was to make man as a bundle of sin.

SO, you are happy with possibly being wrong, and thus slandering God? I mean, has anyone made it clear to you that God's purpose in creating at all was to bring glory to Himself? What does that have to do with what you say above? Consider that God's intent may possibly be to bring glory in Himself through the salvation of His creation. And then realize that perhaps, since we are simply created beings, that we cannot possibly hope to understand the full body of God's thoughts and intentions, and perhaps we should... back of and not run where angels fear to tread.

Made by his creator, that way.

You should consider Paul's take on the clay and the potter, specifically the part where it asks who are you, oh man, to talk back at your Creator? If you want to understand the missing depth of what you said, and about God... so what if God made us that way? What standing do you have to say anything back at God? Who are you to judge God?

But here is the rub. ON THIS EVERY SINGLE "true" CHRISTIAN knows this to be true.

But the difference in how said "true" Christian comes to his/her personal faith is the issue.

You believe that without the Father putting the desire in you... IOW "electing" you it is impossible.

Wow, um, I read that you say that this is what I believe, however... it isn't. You apparently don't understand what election is. Try explaining what Jesus meant in response to the disciples question "Then who can be saved?" His response "With man this is impossible..." FULL STOP. He doesn't speak of man again after this, other then saying it is impossible. Now if God, the Creator of mankind says something is impossible, does that mean that it is possible? This is GOD saying it is IMPOSSIBLE. However, He then says BUT (not AND), BUT with God, all things are possible. Now can you tell me where Jesus is saying anything about desire?

I believe that the Father not only is capable, but has instilled in every human being a desire... so to speak that allows
everyone to watch, look and listen and then make their own choice what road they will follow.

Is that why we have a thus says the Lord that there are none righteous, no not one, none that does good, and none that seeks after God. NONE. Again this isn't some human saying it looks like there may be no one, but the Creator of the universe saying there are NONE. And what is the reason this Creator of the universe gives for this? Each have gone their own way. There is nothing here that says God did anything. Everything that happens to these people who are not seeking God has its own soundtrack. "I did it my way."

NO IT ISNT... My beliefs are NOT predestined ones at all.

Through out the bible we read of those who were taught. We read of those who believed. We read of those who hungered for a baptism. (Eunuch) We rea of those who are who are caught in a turmoil and are in the presence of truly predestined men
who this person asked " “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30).... and the simple reply 31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

What did the jailer mean by his statement? As a heathen Roman (cf. Alford, 1980, 2:184), he no doubt had been exposed to Greek/Roman mythology his entire life. Christianity had been introduced into Macedonia only days earlier when Paul arrived in Philippi (16:12; cf. Ramsay, p. 215). So it is unlikely that he possessed more than a cursory understanding of the Christian notion of salvation from sin. But events occurred in those days leading up to his conversion that may account for the jailer’s question.

Paul had been in prison for a little while, which means the jailer got to hear him sings, listen to them (Silas was with him as well as others) talk, watch how they acted, etc. Consider that any prisoner in that circumstance would have booked it as soon as they could. However, due to Paul, the prisoners remained saving the life of that jailer. Having seen such people, having heard some of what they are talking about, having been convicted by God, he is basically asking what he needs to do to be saved like them. Did it happen right then. NO. Paul went and preached to him and his family.

Observe that the demon within the girl announced to the citizens of Philippi over a period of “many days” the fact that Paul and Silas were representatives of the one true God, and that they possessed the information that would show people the way to salvation. In all likelihood, the jailer would have heard this declaration either firsthand or through the reports of friends, neighbors, relatives, or other townspeople.

That is another possibility, but consider that many were not affected by what the girl was saying. And then they ALL turned on them despite what the girl was saying. Did Paul cast out the demon because of the girl?No, but Acts 16:18 "But Paul was greatly annoyed..." That is what it took. Paul getting annoyed.

When Paul finally expelled the demon from the girl, her irate masters assaulted him and Silas, dragged them before the magistrates of the city, and subjected them to the legal proceedings that ultimately landed them in the prison where they encountered the jailer. It is not out of the realm of possibility that the jailer was privy to these proceedings, which surely would have included reference to their alleged identity as “servants of the Most High God” who had information pertaining to “the way of salvation.”

You are quick to add to God's word. You seem to believe that the people who seized Paul and Barnabbas were righteous, and that they actually cared about the young girl beyond the money she brought in. What did they say

"19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was suddenly gone [no mention of girl here], they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the authorities, 20 and when they had brought them to the chief magistrates, they said, “These men, Jews as they are, are causing our city trouble, 21 and they are proclaiming customs that are not lawful for us to accept or to practice, since we are Romans.”"

So the owners don't care the identity of Paul and Silas. They only care about the fact that their profit stream is now gone. So what did they do? They came up with the one thing that would rile up the leadership and people against Paul and Silas. They are proclaiming things to the people that are illegal, because they are Romans. *GASP!!* How dare they. You can see how much they cared for the little girl, and weren't in it all over simply money. Or you can see that they are so upset over the loss of profit that they didn't hold back in attacking Paul and Silas. What they proclaimed for Saul and Silas was high crime, perhaps worthy of death. That is how upset they were.

A third means by which the jailer could have come into possession of sufficient information that would account for the phrasing of his question can be seen in verse 25: “But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them.” The jailer may well have heard the hymns that Paul and Silas sang—songs that would have included references to God, Christ, and salvation.

I believe that is one of the few if only ways the jailer heard, which would explain why Paul went with him later to his household and preached to them the gospel.

These three circumstances may account for the jailer’s request to be informed about salvation—albeit, even then, his understanding must have been very piecemeal. Paul’s response to the jailer’s question was: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household” (vs. 31). What did Paul mean by this statement? If he meant what many within Christendom think he meant, that is, if the jailer already knew who Jesus was, and if Paul was urging him simply to believe (i.e., simply to “accept Christ into his heart as his personal savior”), then we should next expect the text to provide the jailer’s response—something to the effect that the jailer accepted Jesus Christ as his savior, or that he believed on Jesus right then and there and was saved.

However, to the contrary, the text says: “Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him” (vs. 32). Why? Didn’t Paul just do that by telling the jailer to believe? Apparently not! Paul later wrote that “faith comes by hearing…the word of God” (Romans 10:17). So the jailer needed to hear additional information that would enable him to know what it means to believe in Jesus. It follows, then, that the instruction, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” was simply a broad, sweeping statement intended to redirect the jailer’s then-present religious attachment to the pagan gods of Greek/Roman mythology toward the true object of belief—Christ. It was a way to reorient the jailer’s thinking in the direction of Jesus, as contrasted with his own pagan notions. But simply telling the jailer (or anyone today) to “believe on Jesus” does not provide sufficient information on how to believe. In other words, there is more to “believing on Jesus” than simply affirming in one’s mind that Jesus is Lord and Savior (a fact readily conceded even by Satan and the demons—Genesis 3:15; Matthew 4:3,6; Luke 22:31; Hebrews 2:14; James 2:19; Revelation 12:4ff.).

Regeneration comes first. Regeneration is not salvation, but the dead spirit, incapable of understanding the spiritual nature of the gospel is brought to life, and they are no longer simply "natural men", but now can understand the spiritual message in the gospel. With regeneration (or before?) comes conviction due to understanding. The jailer did not know the gospel, so Paul went with the jailer and preached to him and his household. And you are right, intelectual assent is not faith/belief.

It was only in speaking the word of the Lord to the jailer that he could understand who Christ is, what Christianity is about, and the proper response to the preached Word—i.e., what it means to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” Since the jailer could not be saved before Paul spoke the Word of the Lord to him, observe the sequence of events that the text reports immediately after the Word was spoken to him.

And the jailer was saved because he was one of God's elect. He was predestined for that moment. If God is not in control, God is not the Creator. He would be, as some believe, some traveling being who came across Earth, and found some hominids, and presented Himself to them, and so our story begins.

Now the jailer was not predestined as his conversion and belief did not come until he expressed a desire of wanting to be saved.

So your God is clueless, and has to wait for some person's actions? Just what control do people have over God? Why do you believe people can thwart God? Has the created become higher than the Creator that they hold anything over Him? The question you MUST consider is... does God have the right to choose who HE wants to spend His eternity with... as Creator? Or, is He sitting on His throne in suspense, wondering just what is going on in His creation, and just who will choose Him, after He has already said that no one does?

He had heard the "good news" and in these circumstances understood that what he had heard was correct and
made an informed decision by his own choice.

That's something natural man would say, considering there is not one thing spiritual in that whole sentence. All natural. All material. Nothing spiritual.