Excellent Discussion on OSAS

lol
Same old song and dance
broken record.
I will move on.. I already explained this multiple times Like I did james.
you repeating the same old things over and over will not change that..
You have no choice but to move on (run away) because you have no counterargument to the fact that Nations Rom 2:13-17 is talking to Believers about those Nations that choose to be doers of the Law will be justified. Do you agree with Paul?
 
The passage does not end there. You forgot about the rest of the passage. So let's continue to its end which says "since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame." That's the falling away that will make it impossible to renew them again to repentance. Do you believe scripture?

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.

BTW, I'm still waiting for your verse that supports your statement: Now the question comes. can they fall away, according to the law. yes.. According to grace no
Question here is, were they really regenerated?

J.
 
The passage does not end there. You forgot about the rest of the passage. So let's continue to its end which says "since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame." That's the falling away that will make it impossible to renew them again to repentance. Do you believe scripture?
Yes. When you return to the law. The law states that if you sin, you must have an animal sacrifice to have that sin forgiven

So when you say a person can fall away. The only way they can be renewed. Is christ must be crucified again

This puts him to open shame, it states his death was not enough


Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.

BTW, I'm still waiting for your verse that supports your statement: Now the question comes. can they fall away, according to the law. yes.. According to grace no
This does not refute anything I said.

Context of the whole book of hebrews is returning to the law

As the author says, without the shedding of blood. There is no forgivenes

By this fact. If one can fall away. The only way they can be renewed is something or someone has to die

If you can fall away according to grace, then we are not under grace we are under law

Do you even know what Grace means, if you can fall away, it means grace must be merited, it means grace is no longer grace.

You want verses which prove this, read the NT
 
You have no choice but to move on (run away) because you have no counterargument to the fact that Nations Rom 2:13-17 is talking to Believers about those Nations that choose to be doers of the Law will be justified. Do you agree with Paul?
See there you go again.

I counterpointed multiple times

This is your last warning. I will not be falsly accused of doing something I have not done.

Again

If you do not like my counterpoint. Thats fine, lets move on

If you disagree. Again thats fine, lets be humble admit we do not agree. And move on

But to LIE and say I have not given a counterpoint. Thats bearing false witness.. You should be ashamed and repent..
 
here you go. telling me I did not do something I already did
I just supported my allegations with proof. Keep it up. and i will do what I promised I would do.
Where is the "have not done something" alleged statement? I don't see it. Do you? Actually, I told just the opposite in that you've done enough, believe me.

So you're scrambling to find another statement of mine to fit your allegations. Fact is that I keep proving that you still do not have a valid answer to support your presuppositions. What do you want me to do? Tickle your ears with false adulations? You need to value Prov 27:6.

(Prov 27:6) Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.
lol. Dude you are to proud. run away from what?

:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

and by the way it is about you

Your works
Your good deeds
Your knowledge of the word (as apposed to mine)

I tell my disicplers all the time, when your discussing things, and you start using the words I or my or praising and boasting in self. you need to repent... Because you have stopped talking about God
Nope, it is about the Bible and what it clearly says. Once you stop reading exactly what the Bible says then it is about you and your own version of reality and you need to repent.... Because you have stopped talking about what the Bible actually reveals about Christ and turned the focus to your own perception of spiritual reality.
 
Question here is, were they really regenerated?

J.
They had previously repented which means they truly believed and that alone qualifies them as believers. On top of that, they were partakers of the Holy Spirit. Which unbeliever is allowed to partake of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit regenerates all who repent and believe.
 
You should harmonize james with paul before you try to ask someone else to
Amen! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony* :)
 
Question here is, were they really regenerated?

J.
In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation (Hebrews 12:15 - come short of the grace of God) certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy to tell them apart.
 
Amen! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9);
Paul is talking about works of the Law in Rom 3 and continued to do so in Rom 4. Nobody around here is advocating works of the Law. We kicked that habit 2000 years ago.
yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-26)
Can that faith save him? (James 2:14) Give me a Yes or a No.
*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)
Again, Paul is talking about works of the Law. Nobody around here is advocating works of the Law. We kicked that habit 2000 years ago.

Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 for the display of His righteousness at this time, for Him to be just and, forgiving the one being of the faith of Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then where is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.
It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9);
Aren't we Trinitarians? You don't have faith in the Father and in the Holy Spirit?
yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony* :)
Faith alone is dead. Can faith alone save? No, it's dead. D E A D, dead.
 
They had previously repented which means they truly believed and that alone qualifies them as believers. On top of that, they were partakers of the Holy Spirit. Which unbeliever is allowed to partake of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit regenerates all who repent and believe.
QUESTION - Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?

ANSWER - Hebrews 6:4–6 states, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.”

This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret,
but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation.


There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers...

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase once enlightened (Hebrews 6:4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of Scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4–6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but who have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase tasted the heavenly gift (Hebrews 6:4) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3–23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians....

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases partakers of the Holy Ghost, enlightened, and tasted of the heavenly gift are all descriptions of true believers.

This second interpretation is based on an alternate translation, found in the KJV and a few others, in which Hebrews 6:6 begins with the phrase if they fall away, with the key word being if. According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away.” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

In this view, the passage presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity. The weakness of this view is that the Greek text does not contain a word equivalent to the English if.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation, which has a stronger textual basis, presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second, weaker interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many passages make it abundantly clear that salvation is everlasting (John 10:27–29; Romans 8:35, 38–39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4–5), and Hebrews 6:4–6 confirms that doctrine.GotQuestions.org

FOR IN THE CASE OF THOSE WHO HAVE ONCE BEEN ENLIGHTENED: gar toushapax photisthentas (AAPMPA):

Once been enlightened - Hebrews 10:32+; Numbers 24:3,15,16+
Hebrews 6 Resources - Multiple Sermons and Commentaries
Those who (3588) describes a group (see three groups below) of individuals who have received significant exposure to spiritual truth and spiritual fruit. Each of these participles ("enlightened… tasted… made partakers… tasted… fallen away") is governed by the article tous (“those who”).

Those who have once been enlightened (photizo) - As described in more detail in the discussion of photizo, the enlightenment spoken can describe either unbelievers or believers.

When Jesus first came to Galilee to minister, He declared that He had come to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 9:1-2+, which, in part, reads, “The people who were sitting in darkness saw a great light” (Mt 4:16+).

All who saw and heard Jesus saw this “great light,” but not all who saw and heard were saved. Seeing God’s light and accepting it are not the same. Those people in Galilee, as all people who hear the gospel, were to some extent enlightened but, judging by the biblical accounts, few believed in Jesus. As explained below, the same thing had happened to the Jews being addressed in Hebrews 6:4-8. They were enlightened but not saved. Consequently, they were in danger of losing all opportunity of being saved, and of becoming apostate. It is of such people that Peter speaks in 2 Peter 2:20, 2:21+.

Once enlightened - What does he mean?

Wuest explains that "once is literally “once for all,” and is used of that which is so done as to be of perpetual validity, and never needs repetition. That means that as these Hebrews listened to the message of the New Testament, the Holy Spirit enlightened their minds and hearts to clearly understand it. The work of the Spirit with reference to their understanding of New Testament truth had been so thorough that it needed never to be repeated for the purpose of making the truth clear to them. These Hebrews had understood these issues perfectly. The type was set aside for the reality, the First Testament for the New. They were enlightened as every sinner is enlightened who comes under the hearing of God’s Word. But as the unsaved in an evangelistic meeting today clearly understand the message of salvation but sometimes refuse the light and turn back into the darkness of sin and continued unbelief, so these Hebrews were in danger of doing a like thing." (Hebrews Commentary online)

Though knowledge is prerequisite to faith,
it does not always indicate that saving faith is present.
-- Ray Stedman

Ray Stedman writes that enlightenment "plainly means an intellectual understanding of God’s redemptive actions…though knowledge is prerequisite to faith, it does not always indicate that saving faith is present. (Hebrews 6:4-8 The Danger of Knowledge Without Faith)



One can have a great deal of light
and still not be a genuine believer in Christ.
-- S Lewis Johnson

S Lewis Johnson asks

"What does it mean to be enlightened? For some people "to be enlightened" would necessarily mean to be converted. Now it is of course true that all people who are converted have indeed been enlightened. However, the question is whether all who have been enlightened are converted? Turn to Numbers 24 and listen to what is said about Balaam the prophet (the NT makes clear that he was a false prophet).

Numbers 24:4; 16 - The oracle of him who hears the words of God, Who sees the vision of the Almighty, Falling down, yet having his eyes uncovered… 16 The oracle of him who hears the words of God, And knows the knowledge of the Most High, Who sees the vision of the Almighty, Falling down, yet having his eyes uncovered.

Then in the NT we have 3 texts to which Balaam is referred:

Jude 1:11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

2 Peter 2:15 (note) forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Revelation 2:14 (note) ‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.

Clearly, Balaam had a great deal of the knowledge of the Lord God. He was a prophet, that is one who gave prophecies. Furthermore, if you have ever studied those prophecies you will find that they consist of 4 magnificent Messianic prophecies. Balaam's prophecies are not dealing with insignificant things but rather with the coming of the Messiah and the things that would be characteristic of His person and kingdom. So out of his mouth have come some magnificent prophecies that are part of the Word of God, yet the NT apparently regards Balaam among those who are lost. The point that I am making is simply this: one can have a great deal of light and still not be a genuine believer in Christ. (Hebrews 6:1-12 The Thing God Cannot Permit; Hebrews 6:1-12 Peril of Apostasy)

Now carefully observe the pronouns used by the writer in Hebrews 6:1-12… Did you observe three distinct groups? The pronouns suggest that there are three groups of individuals being described. The first group (us, we) is clearly believers, the writer including himself in this group. The second group is the problematic group the identity of which has been interpreted in radically different ways by various commentators. Finally, the third group (you, your) points toward believing Jews worshiped and studied together.

I personally believe that the teaching of the NT in general (that one cannot lose genuine salvation), the flow of the epistle of Hebrews up to this point and the distinctive descriptions of the three groups favors the interpretation of Group 2 as represented by Jewish readers who are not born again, not regenerate, not redeemed, not justified, and in short are not genuine believers.

They had clearly witnessed the power, glory, and truth of the gospel in the Scriptures and they had observed the dramatic testimony of radically transformed lives in other Jews, but they were not born again. To paraphrase Jesus (see Mark 10:21, 12:34) "they were those who were not far from the Kingdom of God but one thing they lacked… genuine, saving faith in the Messiah".


Read on brother--

J.
 
You're posts are all eisegesis.
It's quite unfortunate that the writers of the NT did not follow YOUR logic and instead wrote what THEY wanted to write.

The linquistic gymnastics necessary to squirm around very clear scripture....
are a sight to behold !
Oh the irony. You filter scripture through the lens of works-righteousness which explains your eisegesis. I properly harmonize scripture with scripture (hermeneutics) before reaching my conclusion on doctrine (2 Timothy 2:15) and I squirm around nothing. You just don't understand.
 
See there you go again.

I counterpointed multiple times

This is your last warning. I will not be falsly accused of doing something I have not done.

Again

If you do not like my counterpoint. Thats fine, lets move on

If you disagree. Again thats fine, lets be humble admit we do not agree. And move on

But to LIE and say I have not given a counterpoint. Thats bearing false witness.. You should be ashamed and repent..
So where, in your statement below, is your counterpoint concerning Rom 2:13-17 where Paul is talking to Believers about Nations who are doers of the Law will be justified.
lol

Same old song and dance

broken record.

I will move on.. I already explained this multiple times Like I did james.

you repeating the same old things over and over will not change that..
 
In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation (Hebrews 12:15 - come short of the grace of God) certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy to tell them apart.
I fully concur here brother, and you just shed a ton of light on one of THE most controversial passage in scripture and preceptaustin is in full agreement, here, read it for yourself

I personally believe that the teaching of the NT in general (that one cannot lose genuine salvation), the flow of the epistle of Hebrews up to this point and the distinctive descriptions of the three groups favors the interpretation of Group 2 as represented by Jewish readers who are not born again, not regenerate, not redeemed, not justified, and in short are not genuine believers.

They had clearly witnessed the power, glory, and truth of the gospel in the Scriptures and they had observed the dramatic testimony of radically transformed lives in other Jews, but they were not born again. To paraphrase Jesus (see Mark 10:21, 12:34) "they were those who were not far from the Kingdom of God but one thing they lacked… genuine, saving faith in the Messiah".

Note what Hebrews 6:4-8 does not say
. There are no definitive terms which uniquely describe salvation. In other words there are no terms that can only be used to describe a saved person -- justification, sanctification, new birth, regeneration, new creature, in Christ, etc.

Stated another way "those who… them… those" (Group 2) are not spoken of as born again, made holy or made righteous. On the other hand, none of the descriptions of Group 2 is ever used elsewhere in NT as a definite synonym for a saved person!

And this even includes "partakers of the Holy Spirit". Now if he had stated something like they are "those who possess the seal of the Spirit" or "those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit", etc, then we would know beyond a shadow of doubt that he was describing genuine believers.

Are there any examples of "Group 2" individuals seen anywhere in Scripture? Clearly, the answer is yes, the prime example being Judas Iscariot, who even his fellow disciples did not suspect. Was Judas not enlightened? Absolutely, for he traveled for 3 years in the company of the very One Who described Himself as the Light of the World (John 8:12). Judas Iscariot was like "those who" were not in darkness concerning the way of salvation. He had been enlightened but he rejected the light and he gave the Son of God over to be crucified by evil men (compare verse 6 "… since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.")


Another vivid example is seen in Acts 8 in Simon Magus of the city of Samaria. Luke records (read all of chapter 8 to get the proper context) that when Simon witnessed the miracles of Paul and the response to Philip's preaching of the good news…

even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip; and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed. (Acts 8:13-see commentary)

Remembering that Acts is a transitional book (from Old Covenant to New Covenant), we read Luke's explanation that these new believers had not yet received the promised Holy Spirit although they had received (accepted deliberately and readily) the Word of God. And so the apostles in Jerusalem sent Peter and John who came to Samaria and prayed for them to receive the Holy Spirit.

For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

19 saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

20 But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!

21 "You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.

22 "Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

23 "For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."

24 But Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me." (Acts 8:16-24+)

Clearly Simon had believed but like the demons who believe, he lacked a saving belief as the subsequent events demonstrated. He shared in the experience of the Holy Spirit but there is no direct statement that he ever received the Holy Spirit. In fact Peter's strong words clearly reflect that he did not think Simon was saved.

Finally, Jesus Himself described those who had experienced incredible spiritual power but failed to experience Jesus Himself…

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does (present tense - HABITUALLY, NOT PERFECTION BUT AT LEAST "DIRECTION" - AKA "HEAVENWARD" AND NOT THE CONVERSE) the will of My Father who is in heaven.

22 "Many (NOTE THIS SAD WORD "MANY") will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' (NOTE: HE DOES NOT DISPUTE THAT THEY DID THESE THINGS - WE KNOW JUDAS CARRIED OUT SUPERNATURAL ACTS BUT HE WAS NOT SAVED. CLEARLY SUPERNATURAL ACTS DO NOT SAVE. ONLY GENUINE FAITH IN JESUS SAVES!)

23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE (present tense = as their habitual practice, they have never manifested any evidence or fruit of a changed behavior in keeping with true repentance and faith.) LAWLESSNESS.' (Mt 7:21-23- notes Matthew 7:21; 7:22; 7:23)


God bless @mailmandan.

J.
 
Where is the "have not done something" alleged statement? I don't see it. Do you? Actually, I told just the opposite in that you've done enough, believe me.
are you serious?

If you can not admit your own doings. then again, how can we discuss anything

So you're scrambling to find another statement of mine to fit your allegations. Fact is that I keep proving that you still do not have a valid answer to support your presuppositions. What do you want me to do? Tickle your ears with false adulations? You need to value Prov 27:6.
see there you go. you accuse me of not having a valid answer to support something..

Its not about whether you believe what I say or agree with it. Its about have I given my view

well i did.

your getting thinner
 
They had previously repented which means they truly believed and that alone qualifies them as believers. On top of that, they were partakers of the Holy Spirit. Which unbeliever is allowed to partake of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit regenerates all who repent and believe.
please show the word repent in the passage..
 
QUESTION - Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?

ANSWER - Hebrews 6:4–6 states, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.”

This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret,
but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation.


There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers...

One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase once enlightened (Hebrews 6:4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of Scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4–6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but who have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase tasted the heavenly gift (Hebrews 6:4) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3–23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians....

The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases partakers of the Holy Ghost, enlightened, and tasted of the heavenly gift are all descriptions of true believers.

This second interpretation is based on an alternate translation, found in the KJV and a few others, in which Hebrews 6:6 begins with the phrase if they fall away, with the key word being if. According to this view, the writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away.” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.

In this view, the passage presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity. The weakness of this view is that the Greek text does not contain a word equivalent to the English if.

Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation, which has a stronger textual basis, presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second, weaker interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many passages make it abundantly clear that salvation is everlasting (John 10:27–29; Romans 8:35, 38–39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4–5), and Hebrews 6:4–6 confirms that doctrine.GotQuestions.org

FOR IN THE CASE OF THOSE WHO HAVE ONCE BEEN ENLIGHTENED: gar toushapax photisthentas (AAPMPA):

Once been enlightened - Hebrews 10:32+; Numbers 24:3,15,16+
Hebrews 6 Resources - Multiple Sermons and Commentaries
Those who (3588) describes a group (see three groups below) of individuals who have received significant exposure to spiritual truth and spiritual fruit. Each of these participles ("enlightened… tasted… made partakers… tasted… fallen away") is governed by the article tous (“those who”).

Those who have once been enlightened (photizo) - As described in more detail in the discussion of photizo, the enlightenment spoken can describe either unbelievers or believers.

When Jesus first came to Galilee to minister, He declared that He had come to fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah 9:1-2+, which, in part, reads, “The people who were sitting in darkness saw a great light” (Mt 4:16+).

All who saw and heard Jesus saw this “great light,” but not all who saw and heard were saved. Seeing God’s light and accepting it are not the same. Those people in Galilee, as all people who hear the gospel, were to some extent enlightened but, judging by the biblical accounts, few believed in Jesus. As explained below, the same thing had happened to the Jews being addressed in Hebrews 6:4-8. They were enlightened but not saved. Consequently, they were in danger of losing all opportunity of being saved, and of becoming apostate. It is of such people that Peter speaks in 2 Peter 2:20, 2:21+.

Once enlightened - What does he mean?

Wuest explains that "once is literally “once for all,” and is used of that which is so done as to be of perpetual validity, and never needs repetition. That means that as these Hebrews listened to the message of the New Testament, the Holy Spirit enlightened their minds and hearts to clearly understand it. The work of the Spirit with reference to their understanding of New Testament truth had been so thorough that it needed never to be repeated for the purpose of making the truth clear to them. These Hebrews had understood these issues perfectly. The type was set aside for the reality, the First Testament for the New. They were enlightened as every sinner is enlightened who comes under the hearing of God’s Word. But as the unsaved in an evangelistic meeting today clearly understand the message of salvation but sometimes refuse the light and turn back into the darkness of sin and continued unbelief, so these Hebrews were in danger of doing a like thing." (Hebrews Commentary online)

Though knowledge is prerequisite to faith,
it does not always indicate that saving faith is present.
-- Ray Stedman

Ray Stedman writes that enlightenment "plainly means an intellectual understanding of God’s redemptive actions…though knowledge is prerequisite to faith, it does not always indicate that saving faith is present. (Hebrews 6:4-8 The Danger of Knowledge Without Faith)



One can have a great deal of light
and still not be a genuine believer in Christ.
-- S Lewis Johnson

S Lewis Johnson asks

"What does it mean to be enlightened? For some people "to be enlightened" would necessarily mean to be converted. Now it is of course true that all people who are converted have indeed been enlightened. However, the question is whether all who have been enlightened are converted? Turn to Numbers 24 and listen to what is said about Balaam the prophet (the NT makes clear that he was a false prophet).

Numbers 24:4; 16 - The oracle of him who hears the words of God, Who sees the vision of the Almighty, Falling down, yet having his eyes uncovered… 16 The oracle of him who hears the words of God, And knows the knowledge of the Most High, Who sees the vision of the Almighty, Falling down, yet having his eyes uncovered.

Then in the NT we have 3 texts to which Balaam is referred:

Jude 1:11 Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

2 Peter 2:15 (note) forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Revelation 2:14 (note) ‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.

Clearly, Balaam had a great deal of the knowledge of the Lord God. He was a prophet, that is one who gave prophecies. Furthermore, if you have ever studied those prophecies you will find that they consist of 4 magnificent Messianic prophecies. Balaam's prophecies are not dealing with insignificant things but rather with the coming of the Messiah and the things that would be characteristic of His person and kingdom. So out of his mouth have come some magnificent prophecies that are part of the Word of God, yet the NT apparently regards Balaam among those who are lost. The point that I am making is simply this: one can have a great deal of light and still not be a genuine believer in Christ. (Hebrews 6:1-12 The Thing God Cannot Permit; Hebrews 6:1-12 Peril of Apostasy)

Now carefully observe the pronouns used by the writer in Hebrews 6:1-12… Did you observe three distinct groups? The pronouns suggest that there are three groups of individuals being described. The first group (us, we) is clearly believers, the writer including himself in this group. The second group is the problematic group the identity of which has been interpreted in radically different ways by various commentators. Finally, the third group (you, your) points toward believing Jews worshiped and studied together.

I personally believe that the teaching of the NT in general (that one cannot lose genuine salvation), the flow of the epistle of Hebrews up to this point and the distinctive descriptions of the three groups favors the interpretation of Group 2 as represented by Jewish readers who are not born again, not regenerate, not redeemed, not justified, and in short are not genuine believers.

They had clearly witnessed the power, glory, and truth of the gospel in the Scriptures and they had observed the dramatic testimony of radically transformed lives in other Jews, but they were not born again. To paraphrase Jesus (see Mark 10:21, 12:34) "they were those who were not far from the Kingdom of God but one thing they lacked… genuine, saving faith in the Messiah".


Read on brother--

J.
Would it be possible to trim down your response to respond to what I actually wrote? Focus in on repentance, belief, and the Holy Spirit. There's a lot that the author above imagines like "false premises". The Bible does not mislead with "false premises". We are dumb as sheep when it comes to understanding spirituality. So for the Bible to present us with false signals and false premises is to mislead us in all directions with no end in sight.
 
Would it be possible to trim down your response to respond to what I actually wrote? Focus in on repentance, belief, and the Holy Spirit. There's a lot that the author above imagines like "false premises". The Bible does not mislead with "false premises". We are dumb as sheep when it comes to understanding spirituality. So for the Bible to present us with false signals and false premises is to mislead us in all directions with no end in sight.
Sure, see here--


J.
 
Paul is talking about works of the Law in Rom 3 and continued to do so in Rom 4. Nobody around here is advocating works of the Law. We kicked that habit 2000 years ago.
Those who teach salvation by works tend to subdivide the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law) but that argument is bogus. When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)

NOWHERE does Paul say that we are "saved by works" and when Paul says we are not saved by works, he is not merely limiting this to specific works of the law. Elsewhere, Paul makes it clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5) and he also makes it clear that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. (2 Timothy 1:9)
Can that faith save him? (James 2:14) Give me a Yes or a No.
No and what kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith.
Again, Paul is talking about works of the Law. Nobody around here is advocating works of the Law. We kicked that habit 2000 years ago.
Again, Paul does not merely limit works only to specific works of the law but includes works in general. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

Also, when it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16)
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 3:25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 for the display of His righteousness at this time, for Him to be just and, forgiving the one being of the faith of Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then where is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the Law.
Works of the law covers all the bases, including the moral aspect of the law, which includes good works.
Aren't we Trinitarians? You don't have faith in the Father and in the Holy Spirit?
Strawman argument.
Faith alone is dead. Can faith alone save? No, it's dead. D E A D, dead.
Faith that remains "alone" barren of works is dead (James 2:14) and is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) Faith that is alive in Christ results in producing good works, (Ephesians 2:5-10) yet we are still saved by grace through faith and not by works.
 
So where, in your statement below, is your counterpoint concerning Rom 2:13-17 where Paul is talking to Believers about Nations who are doers of the Law will be justified.
post 724 and 742.

this is your last warning. falsly accuse me again, just one more time.. I am done

again, you may not agree with what I said. but do not lie and say I did not say something
 
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