Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Eternally-Grateful]

Uh, please read the Gospels again.

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." (Jn. 5:14 NKJ)

so that means he lost his salvation? or maybe he may die physically?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Denying logic is not a "straw man."

It's like people think if they just say the magic words "straw man" it makes their argument logically consistent or something.

Its not logic my friend.

Logic says if we place our faith in God. we will continue to trust God because God is a God of love and he does not fail us.

You walk away from faith in a person who is not trustworthy..

 

[Johann]

I am

we do not persevere. that would be works or self righteousness

God keeps us..

We persevere in the sphere of the Holy Spirit brother--called progressive sanctification.

J.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What I said is that Rom 2:13-15 was directed to the Nations (Gentiles). You may bark against Rom 2:13-15 all you want. I'll stick with Paul, if you don't mind.

Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 who show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,

I will stick with Paul also

Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

romans 2 is attacking the jews. after he attacked the gentiles in romans 1.

the verses you mention are telling the jews he is speaking that the gentiles who do not have the law. yet seem to live by the law (not perfectly for all have sinned, hence all are under a curse)

the jew thought their obedience made them right with God. they believed it was their works of the law which saved them

paul called them out. to show them how they have not keep the law. saying even gentiles can keep the law better than they did.

I will chose salvation.

You chose whatever you want..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It’s called The Lie.

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-11


Here’s The Lie:


Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. Genesis 3:4

Go ahead and disobey God (sin) you won’t die.


That is OSAS in a nutshell.


A doctrine of demons.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

so you must be sinless perfect.

you have fulfilled the law in your heart and made it.. Christ is not needed.

way to God.. But please do not expect me to bow to you

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That doesn't even make sense, lol.

Christ said A WORSE THING will come upon him.

what is the worse thing?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Heb 6:4-6:

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

This talks about the consequences of a deliberate, open, persistent, and incorrigible falling away from having partaken of the Holy Spirit. They are reduced lower than those who crucified Christ because there no longer exists the possibility of repentance.

actually this verse just states plainly. if a person can fall away. they can not be resaved (renewed to repentance. And saying you can fall away. puts christ to open shame

Jesus is not going to die again for the sin he did not die for the first time that caused you to lose salvation

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you saying that James is "complicating the issue" with verses like the following? :

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

your stuck on James

your stuck on 5 verses (which was not written in verse form) and pitting them against the rest of the word.

You need to find another fall to verse. because you messed up the f you are trying to use, because you ignore the root argument James was making. these are people who SAY they have faith. but they have no works. Can that "said or clamed' faith save them

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Let's see how you harmonize James 2:14:26 with your presuppositions.

You should harmonize james with paul before you try to ask someone else to

 

[Dizerner]

The more logically consistent Eternal Security is the Free Grace position, that says you can deny Christ and murder a thousand children and still be saved if you ever had one moment of faith, because any conditions is "works salvation." But of course the only purely logical Eternal Security is actually Hyper Calvinism because there you are born already saved.

Lordship OSAS is just using a sneaky backdoor to back load adding conditions and works to salvation while inconsistently denying that one is actually doing that, a form of double speak. And of course in Lordship OSAS, much like in Calvinism, no matter how much fruit you have you can never logically know you're saved, since you might wake up one day and find you renounced your faith, and thus you "were never saved to begin with," ironically removing all the security it purports to bring.

But thank God for people that are logically inconsistent with a false position.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Sorry EG...I've lost the thread....

Let's try again:

James 2:14 is the verse in question
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

please look at what I highlighted.

what if someone SAYS they have faith..

can THAT professed faith save him.

all of James words are based on these words.. Because James is going to answer that question. and while doing it. He is going to explain why and what they should do.. (show me your faith.. I will prove my faith)

Just want to point out that in verse 12 James is instructing that we should SPEAK and ACT as those who are to be judged.
(by the Law of Liberty...not THE LAW)....

for a christian no longer under law. It would be called the law of liberty.

it does not matter what law. the curse of the law is we are spiritually dead.. The wage of sin is death.

the first thing we need saved from is out sin debt, our curse. or our condemnation. this is called Justification

before this happens. nothing else matters.

After this happen. God is spending the rest of our lives growing us in him (sanctification)

Then in verse 14 he teaches about one that SAYS he has faith, but that person has no works.

He is not really teaching about them,. He is asking about them/. If they say they have faith, but has no works. can THAT faith save them

So, I hate discussing words because it means we are not trusting the plain language of the bible but are trying to get around it somehow.

YOU say that SAY and CLAIM...a word YOU brought into the discussion is the same.

So let's try this:

1. Mary CLAIMED that she would go buy bread.

2. John SAID that he would go buy bread.

Lunch time comes around. Do you think no. 1 will get the bread or no. 2 ??
Do you trust Mary more or John more to get it done?

You example is not correct. The example you used shows a future possibility

James spoke of a past action that was already completed.

the people James are calling out already said they had faith

If I said I had a paying job, but I do not work. can that Job sustain me

so in this example. I claimed I had a job, but reality is I do not go to that job, and am not working.. so since I am not working and not getting paid. can that Job that I claimed I had sustain me financially

of course not.. Because while I said I had a job, the reality is I did not.

Hope this helps explain as it is the same

1. a person said they had faith (does not mean they did)
2. All people who have faith will work
3. These people have no work (hence,. like the person who had no job)
4. So can this stated faith they claim they have save them?

the answer in both examples is no

When it suits us we GO TO THE GREEK....we stick to every little nuance.
When it does NOT suit us...then the words get to mean the same.

agree. and what I said is true

they said they had faith.. I showed what this meant in the greek.

If James is writing something,,,he means what he's writing.


I'll help you along...
Here's the amplified version:
Amplified Bible
What is the benefit, my fellow believers, if someone claims to have faith but has no [good] works [as evidence]? Can that [kind of] faith save him? [No, a mere claim of faith is not sufficient—genuine faith produces good works.]

good is not in the greek. nor is the word evidence.

It supports your view, right?

not completely

Now let's look at it a bit better.
What James is saying is that IT DOES NOT GOOD TO SAY YOU HAVE FAITH....
if it's NOT JOINED BY GOOD WORKS.

Now this is saying something totally different than what James said. James did not say anything even close to this

His point is about the faith. can that faith they said they had save them

its not about works. it about faith.

is your faith real, living, or is it dead.

I can not look at you and determine if you have saving faith or not.. I do not know your life.

But you can test your own faith,. are you a hearer not a doer. or are you a hearer and a doer.

IOW....just as he states:
FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD...it's a DEAD FAITH.

And a dead faith can not save, because it is not living

We are saved by grace through faith not works.

So if works are required. then James is contradicting paul. there is no way to get around this

If we CLAIM to have faith...
it better be followed up by good works or WE WILL NOT BE JUSTIFIED.

No

Now your adding to the text something James is not saying

We could fool man but what WE SAY,,,but we cannot fool God.

correct.

trye faith works

so a person with living faith is saved by grace.

the result of that faith and salvation is good works.

No use to spend time on words....
FAITH gets us saved.
FAITH PLUS WORKS will get us sanctified.

yes. if you stopped here we would be in 100 % agreement

If we are NOT sanctified....our justificaiton will also be lost.

No. here is where you get off track

we are justified by Grace through faith not works

We can not lose justification with a lack of works. if works can not save us.

it is an apposed saying

You can not earn salvation by works. but if you do not do works, you will lose salvation. those are contradictory terms.

If we do NOT OBEY God....we cannot possibly be saved because we become again

how good is good enough. how much obedience saved, how much disobedience disqualifies us.

going off of what you just said here. You need to answer those questions. Or you can never know if you worked hard enough. you could never be secure

as the unbeliever....the tax collector (Matthew 18)...the dog that RETURNS to his vomit.

a dog is an unbeliever

he can play a different creature. and even act that way, but he is still a dog

a dog will return to his vomit because he is a dog.

I do not see anything about the tax collector in Matt 18

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Judas is a good example of Heb 6:4-6. I have no idea if he will ever be saved. I shudder to think what will become of him.

He was called a theif. and a man who had no faith. Jesus called him son of satan (son of perdition)

He followed jesus expecting Jesus to rule on earth and he wanted to be a part of that.

sadly when he knew Jesus was not going to do that, he turned.

He was never saved. Jesus called him lost.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What do you mean that Jesus does not expect it actually?
Jesus does not expect to be obeyed?

Jesus KNOWS everything you will ever do

You can not surprise him when you do good. or when you do bad. he already knew.

This is what I stated in post 662:
"God expects from those that HAVE FAITH."

And your reply is that actually Jesus does not expect??

Here's what Jesus said....in my above post to Dan...

Matthew 5:19
19 "Whoever * then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever * keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Jesus is God. What He teaches He expects from us.
He expects obedience, which includes good works.

How does God know we will obey Him??
This sounds very calvinistic.

When we get saved we do NOT lose our free will.
If we persevere we will be saved...
If we fall away....we will once again become lost.

lol..

Jesus is telling us so we can know and understand

Jesus already knows.

do you even Know God and all of his attributes?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Doing a good work in order to keep salvation is good enough for me.

I am sure it is. The pharisees thought the same. Most earthly religions believe this

Because:
We're married....we have a spouse.
Don't we do good for that spouse because we love them and want to keep the marriage in tact?

The marraige has not happened yet.

I am a child of God. his son.

He treats me as a father

he does not kick me out because I do not do everything he asks. But he will correct me.

What if we love the spouse exeedingly.....
but we don't do anything to contribute to their wishes and to the good of the marriage?

Is that a marriage?
Is it one that will endure?

lol. Your too focused on works.

you sort of remind me of the Pharisee, pumping his chest. saying thank God I am not like the free grace person.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

First...
Calvinism teaches exactly that God will make persevere that which HE has saved.

No,

Calvinism teaches that we will persevere till the end

And NO!
OSAS is wrong....apart from the P.....

No it is not.

I have eternal life. My security is in Christ. not myself

You want to have conditional life. feel free.. But you can not take away my security.

although, we must say,,,that this idea DID NOT EXIST in the church prior to the reformation. (OSAS).

Jesus said I have eternal life
He said I will never perish
He said I will never hunger or thrist spiritually)
He said I will (not might) be raised by him
He said I am a child of God
He said I have an Abba Father and not a spirit of fear.
He says I have overcome the world (my faith)
He said I will never be lost
He said he will never leave nor forsake me (and since he is omnipresent. there is no place I can go where he is not there. so he is everywhere I am)

I can go on and on and on.

but eternal security was taught in the early church.

Catholicism took it away with their pagan works based Gospel..

but not even that matters legalism was faught by paul in his epistles

licentiousness or easy believism (gnostic belief) was faught by Peter and James and Jude. even John got in on the act.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Sorry EG...I keep falling on your posts when I REPLY.

I don't know a Christian that is relying on Himself.

anyone who says salvation can be lost if we do not do something is depending on self

So there are alot of people here who not even do it. but they deny it

Do you think I miss the verses that say ABIDE...
WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.....

I believe those verses

But he is talking to people who are already saved. Not to people still trying to be saved..

I happen to read all of scripture...I don't dwell on just the passages I like.
All of scripture has to be harmonized or it won't make sense.

But scripture does not harmonize with your belief system

God will grow our faith....
The more grace we use,,,the more we get.

your right, Gods grace is sufficient, he will never run out of grace.

so how can we ever run out of forgiveness?

But we have to WANT Him to.
The fact that we WANT Him to in our personal relationship with Him...
does NOT deny the fact that the NT writers, including Jesus,,,warned to ABIDE IN HIM....
and to obey Him so that we could keep our relationship.

Not to keep our sonship

Teachings OSAS is a dangerous teaching...as I've stated always.

Teaches legalism is more dangerous

it points to self Not God

while one can misrepresent OSAS and try to be licentiousness. it does not negate what it means, We are securie in christ not self

It teachers that salvation cannot be lost NO MATTER WHAT WE DO.

it CANT

because we can not save ourselves. if we can not save ourselves, we can not unsave ourselves

stop looking at yourself and look and grab onto God.

I now YOU are not saying this,,,,but it IS the end result.

Eternal life is eternal. forever. it can not be lost. otherwise it is not eternal.

God does not tell us things that are not true..

It's teaching a lie...something that the NT does NOT teach.

but it does.

It does not teach a works based gospel. it rejects this gospel.. Pauls writting are full of calling out people trying to get to heaven by works, even calling them fools. for having begin in the spirit (faith) and trying to stay or perfect this salvation in the flesh (works)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Haven't we all ?
We can only ask forgiveness when we realize it...
and just do the best we can.

if this is how we are to enter the heavenly gate, and spend eternity with heaven.

By doing the best we can.

ouch..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We persevere in the sphere of the Holy Spirit brother--called progressive sanctification.

J.

I was justified by grace through faith


I am not more justified if I am not more sanctified

and I am not less justified if I remain a babe in christ needing fed milk

Sanctificiation take work. although it is still God who sanctifies us

Justification is a completed action. I do not persevere till the end to be justified.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The more logically consistent Eternal Security is the Free Grace position, that says you can deny Christ and murder a thousand children and still be saved if you ever had one moment of faith, because any conditions is "works salvation." But of course the only purely logical Eternal Security is actually Hyper Calvinism because there you are born already saved.

John said these people were never of us..

Lordship OSAS is just using a sneaky backdoor to back load adding conditions and works to salvation while inconsistently denying that one is actually doing that, a form of double speak. And of course in Lordship OSAS, much like in Calvinism, no matter how much fruit you have you can never logically know you're saved, since you might wake up one day and find you renounced your faith, and thus you "were never saved to begin with," ironically removing all the security it purports to bring.

But thank God for people that are logically inconsistent with a false position.

There is no such thing as lordship salvation being OSAS.

they would deny OSAS theology of once saved always saved.

 

[synergy]

I will stick with Paul also
Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
romans 2 is attacking the jews. after he attacked the gentiles in romans 1.
the verses you mention are telling the jews he is speaking that the gentiles who do not have the law. yet seem to live by the law (not perfectly for all have sinned, hence all are under a curse)
the jew thought their obedience made them right with God. they believed it was their works of the law which saved them
paul called them out. to show them how they have not keep the law. saying even gentiles can keep the law better than they did.
I will chose salvation.
You chose whatever you want..

Rom 2:13-15 is talking about the Gentiles at the time of Paul. And for all others who, through no fault of their own, have never heard of the Gospel nor the Law and yet still practiced the Law in their hearts. That will be to their credit in “a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel”. In this particular case, these "doers of the Law will be justified".

Are you sticking with Paul here?