Dizerner
Well-known member
No, Jonah did not "say that."
He made a wise second choice.
When you ignore the whale, well you get a Korah or a Judas.
Eternal Security
- Thread starter Ahar
- Start date
No, Jonah did not "say that."
He made a wise second choice.
When you ignore the whale, well you get a Korah or a Judas.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Jesus said, "Scripture cannot be broken." Any interpretation that violates or "breaks" the truth of Scripture is to be rejected as false and misleading. Case in point:
There is nowhere in the Scripture where God identifies non-Hebrews as an Olive tree. But Scripture does identify Israel as an Olive tree and to claim non-Hebrews are grafted in the Olive tree "breaks" Scripture. Those who are disobedient are broken off but again also grafted back in. I don't see Saul calling non-Hebrews as an Olive tree to begin with and as a rabbi and Pharisee who held to the Hebrew Scripture would never make such a claim of non-Hebrews being grafted into the Olive tree. But here is the totality of salvation [that is] of the LORD:
4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom. 9:4–5.
Non-Hebrew Gentiles have none of these things which make up the totality of salvation. These are all the inheritance of the Hebrew people who God calls the apple of His eye and His Bride.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
So you are saying that Romans is not Scripture? I am glad to know your opinion, thank you.
Now, not that you will accept it as truth, since you don't believe that Paul's writing is God's inspired Word, in Rom 9:23-26 that not only are some (but not all) Jews, but also some Gentiles have been equally called to be equals in the family of God. You don't have to believe it, but it is truth, not from a Gentile perspective, but from Scripture's perspective. You say that there is "nowhere in the Scripture where God identifies non-Hebrews as an Olive tree", but that is obviously false since He does so in Rom 11. Quite clearly the Gentile nations are called "wild olive trees", and the branches of them are grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Israel, becoming part of that tree and drawing their nourishment from the "Root of Jessie", which is Christ the Lord Yeshua.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Do you even know how the New Testament came to be and the history behind its creation and the politics that was taking place in the culture which affected its origin? Gentiles are behind its creation. Where do Gentiles come off taking Hebrew writings written by Jewish Christians to and for Jews and other Jewish Christians when those letters and gospels were written and make a "New Testament," which is a rip-off of the New Covenant God promised to make with Israel? The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob didn't give them permission to take their grubby, heathen, uncircumcised, non-covenant hands and do what they did and then in it claim their importance in the matter.
The oracles of God were given/committed to the Hebrew people to maintain and keep as a record of God's dealing with His Chosen people Israel. Gentiles have no authority to do what they did.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, I do.
Nope. The New Covenant is God's doing, and is sealed with Yesuha's (a Jew) blood.
LOL, The Jewish writers themselves, even in the Torah and Tanakh, told us that the Gentiles would be blessed through the New Covenant, and would become part of God's people. You are ignoring your own history.
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel (and of Doug Brents) didn't give anyone permission to make any changes to what HE said.
(Oh, by the way, I am not a "heathen, uncircumcised, non-covenant" anything, although I cannot dispute the grubby part.)
This is completely true.
The Scriptures (both Old and New Covenant) remain completely unchanged since the third century (as far as I know the age of the oldest copies of either that exist). The Gentiles have not changed, altered, or edited any of the Word of God.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
From your comment I doubt that.
Scripture cannot be broken. Show me from the passages in which the Abrahamic Covenant is made in Genesis 12, 15, and 17 where God includes, mentions, non-Hebrew Gentiles.
Westcott & Hort changed a great deal in their translation and their work has been the basis of every new age, modern day bible translation, but it will never be the Authorized Version. The KJV is still the best translation out there and we don't need a new translation every year either.
So, yes, Gentiles - Westcott & Hort, two men that hold to Mariology - have done great damage in Christendom. Confusion is not of God.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Gen 22:18 - "And in your Seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
Gal 3:8 - "The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”"
Please show man any damage these men have done to the Word of God. I am sincerely curious, because I cannot even conceive of any damage these humans might have done to God's immortal, perfect Word.
The KJV was translated by Gentiles also. So why is it acceptable, in your opinion, while other translations based upon copies of the original text that are as old or older than the KJV had available at the time it was translated.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Before the Abraham Covenant and the circumcision that separated the people into "seed of the woman" and "seed of the serpent" they were all called Adamites, and even before the Abraham Covenant the people were separated into two groups of people: those that called upon the Lord (obedient ones) and those that did not call upon the Lord but sought to remain together and not "fill the earth" commanded by God, the term "nations" as Strong's defines the word means "masses" as in "masses" of people.
I mean how can you define the word "nations" as non-Hebrew Gentiles when the word is used of Abraham and Sarah, who were two Hebrew individuals from the obedient family of Eber? How does a non-Hebrew Gentile ("nations") birth a non-Hebrew Gentile? That is impossible. It's like to French parents birthing a Chinese baby.
The word "nations" used of both Abraham and Sarah did not at the time mean "non-Hebrew Gentiles", it only a word that meant "masses" [of people.] Don't forget that there was Ishmael (who birthed twelve children) and Esau, both the seed of Abraham but the Promise was inherited first by Isaac and then Jacob (over Esau.) They became "masses" [of people] that live even today in the middle east and are the seed of Abraham (Arabs, etc.)
What if the word was "Samaritans"? They were of mixed-heritage Hebrew offspring. Where in the New Testament are mixed-heritage Hebrews mentioned that became born-again? They are the seed of Abraham just like the Samaritans who were the offspring of Jew-Assyrian and Jew-Babylonian offspring after both armies attacked first the northern kingdom (Samaritans were the result), and the southern kingdom (tribes of Judah and Benjamin.)?
You and the rest of non-Hebrews (Gentiles) claim that "Gentile" in the NT refer to non-Hebrew Gentiles, but if that's so, what about the offspring of Jews who did not return with the remnant (10% of all Jews alive) but remained in Gentile lands (90% of total living at the time) which was overruled by Greek culture - from whom we get the Greek NT? Where in the New Testament does it refer to mixed-heritage Hebrews that became born-again? Or did God forget these half-Jew, half-Babylonian offspring? They are the seed of Abraham just like the Samaritans (who were offspring of Assyrians and the northern kingdom tribes.) Where in Scripture are their conversions to Christ?
The Hebrew people have the Hebrew Scripture (Genesis to Malachi.) They were each prophet commanded by God to write their prophecies down.
For what has become the New Testament do you know the reason why Gentiles collected the scrolls and decided to make a bible?
Because none of them are authorized for the English-speaking people as the Authorized Version (KJV.)
The work Westcott & Hort performed has many considerations that cast doubt on its existence. But the one thing is that they did not have command from God to do so and is instead their work resulted in great confusion. Since 1611 the world only knows of one translation. But from 1881 to today there are all kinds of translations being published every month and all are based on the Revised Version of W&H.
King James was Head of State and Head of the "Church." W&H were laymen - and closet Catholics to boot - that didn't have leave of the King of Kings to produce a new translation (or bible.)
So, two questions:
The reason Gentiles made a bible in the fourth century, and who gave them permission, and...
who authorized or gave W&H permission to make a new translation?
Remember, we're dealing with God's Holy Writ.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Certainly "nation" refers to "masses of people". But "the nations" is frequently used in Scripture to differentiate between the Jews and the Gentiles. The "nations" is understood to refer to everyone who is not of "the nation of Israel". But in Gen 22:18 it says that "all nations", not just some, or the one nation of Israel, will be blessed through the seed of Abraham.
And the verse from Gen 22 does not stand alone. When you consider Gal 3:8 with it, we learn that "seed" is not plural, or referring to the nation of Israel, but is singular, and is referring to the Christ, the One Seed that will come through Abraham, and then Isaac, and then Jacob, and then Judah, and then Daniel, etc.
The Samaritans converting to Christ are all over the NT, the first being in Acts 8. And as Paul makes clear in at least two or three places, there is no longer any Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female when it comes to salvation in Christ. Yes, there are still men and women (male and female) but there is no distinction between them in God's eyes anymore in terms of salvation. So there are no longer any differences between Jews and Gentiles (or partial Jews: Samaritans, etc.) as well.
Who "authorized" the KJV? God? If God "authorized" it, then please show me in Scripture where He authorized it.
No, He did not authorize the KJV. He authored the writing of the Apostles in Greek. It is the Greek originals that were "authorized" by God, and then copies of them were made and sent to all the congregations of the Church around the world. Later, when Greek fell out of use, these originals were translated into other languages so that they would be of use to people still. There are many translations into English, and these translations are only as good as they are faithful to the meaning of the original writings. So if, as the translators of the KJV did, they do not translate honestly but transliterate words (like baptizo/baptisma into baptism) so that they can redefine the word to something they want, then we get errors in the text and misunderstandings about what God said.
King James was not the "head of the Church". He was head of state in his country, but Jesus is the Head of the Church (Col 1:18, Eph 5:22). King James did not have any authority from God to translate the Bible into English, nor did he have any special mandate from God to be the head of the Church. He was just a man, with every man's failings.
The Church recognized the writings of Paul and Peter (and potentially others) as being Scripture even during the first century. The men in the fourth century simply gathered them all together (after debating on which ones did not have the proper backing to be considered Scripture) into one volume for easy distribution. With them all in one volume, it was easier to make sure that each congregation had a full and complete copy of the Scriptures for study. I believe that these men were lead by God to make these decisions, because the volume that they gathered has remained since then.
You act as if translating the originals was unique to King James. The Greek originals had been translated into Latin back in the fourth century, and it was the Latin that was used for almost a thousand years. The KJV translators went back to the oldest Greek originals they had (for the most part), but allowed themselves to be swayed in their translation by earlier works which translated the Greek into English, like those of the Tyndale Bible, the Coverdale Bible, Matthew's Bible, the Great Bible, and the Geneva Bible. Translation of the Scriptures is nothing new, nor does it require "authorization" from God or some "head of state". If it is expedient to translate the Word into a language so that it can be taught more easilly to the people of that language, then it should be translated with much care and faithfulness, but with expedinecy for the souls of the people of that language.
Complete
Well-known member
Hello @Doug Brents,
In relation to what you have said concerning Gentiles i.e., nations: A Scripture comes to my mind from Numbers-
'How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed?
or how shall I defy, whom the LORD hath not defied?
For from the top of the rocks I see him,
and from the hills I behold him:
lo, the people shall dwell alone,
and shall not be reckoned among the nations.
Who can count the dust of Jacob,
and the number of the fourth part of Israel?
Let me die the death of the righteous,
and let my last end be like his!
(Num 23:8-10)
* Israel is not to be counted among the nations. This is why this distinction is constantly made.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, that was true while they were under the Old Covenant. But the New Covenant removes that distinction, as Paul says in Rom 10:12, Gal 3:27-28, and Eph 2:14-16. All peoples of the world are now equal in God's sight, with no separation between any nation or tongue (as far as salvation goes).
Complete
Well-known member
'For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness;
and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith,
Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:
for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'
(Rom 10:10-13)
'For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
.. There is neither Jew nor Greek,
.... there is neither bond nor free,
...... there is neither male nor female:
........ for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's,
then are ye Abraham's seed,
and heirs according to the promise.'
(Gal 3:26-29)
'But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off
are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For He is our peace,
Who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in His flesh the enmity,
even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
having slain the enmity thereby: ... '
(Eph 2:13-16)
Hello @Doug Brents,
* The words of Romans 10 that you reference (above), is in regard to salvation, Doug: Regarding salvation there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek, this is not talking about nations but individual believers on the Lord Jesus Christ.
* In Galatians 3, it is 'in Christ' that there is no distinction made between Jew and Greek, and again, individual believers, not nationally.
* In Ephesians 2, This is referring to the peace which the Lord Jesus Christ procured for every member of The Church which is the Body of Christ: By abolishing in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances. Thus creating one new man. This again is concerning individual believers of Jew or Gentile origin, made one in Christ Jesus. Praise God! Not nations.
* So the word of God spoken by Balaam in Numbers 12 still stands in regard to Israel and the nations.
* 'lo, The People shall dwell alone,
.. and shall not be reckoned among the nations.'
(Numbers 12)
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
* See:- 'The Bond of Peace' (Eph. 4:1), and the armour of God in Acts 6, 'Feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace', This 'peace' is peace between believers, members of, The Body of Christ: Part of:- 'The Unity of The Spirit'
* For all that would hinder unity and equality has been taken away by our Lord and Saviour, now risen and glorified, and sat at God's right hand. A position of great power and authority. This is a unity that is already 'made' for us, and which we are to 'keep' at all costs (Eph. 4:3).
Praise His Holy Name!
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Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, it is in terms of salvation. And the physical genealogy does not matter at all for salvation (Matt 3:9, Rom 9:6-7, Gal :6-9). Is the being of the physical lineage of Jacob (Israel) important? Certainly, as Paul makes clear (Rom 3), but the more important lineage is that of faith. In that regard, there is no longer any separation between Jew and Gentile, and for that reason the things of the Law which separated Jew and Gentile (the dietary restrictions, keeping the sabbath, worship only in the Temple in Jerusalem, etc.) are done away with.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
I agree Abraham's seed would be blessed but at the time of Abraham "nations" did not mean "non-Hebrew Gentiles" but was used of Abraham's seed through Isaac and Ishmael and Esau, and Jacob and Jacob's descendants.
At the immediate time of Abraham and later the inheritance did pass singularly to Isaac, then Jacob, then to Judah and his descendants from which Jesus was born.
Those statements must be taken in context to whom Saul wrote them, meaning Jews and Jewish Christians. Jews (children of Jacob/Israel) for Gentiles were never "under the Law" (schoolmaster) and also note Saul was referring to Hellenized Greeks - not Gentiles - when he said, "there is neither Jew nor Greek", not "there is neither Jew of Gentile." He was referring to Hellenized Hebrews. You are taking "Greek" to mean "Gentiles" and it doesn't refer to Gentiles. If you want to say "Greek" means "Gentiles" then what about other ethnicities such as Romans, or Italians, or the French or the other ethnicities that are not Greek? You cannot use "Greek" to refer to Gentiles for Saul does not say "Gentiles" and "Greek" can only mean Hellenized Jews who were in the majority who lived in Gentile lands and not in Israel.
The Geneva bible was also authorized by the king as was Bishop's bible, etc. They were authorized for the English-speaking people by the King of England. And for over 250 years it was the standard bible that was used before two individuals decided to "bring the KJV up to date, but what Westcott and Hort and their committee did was make a new Greek translation using unused, corrupt texts that were older but whose origin and authorship was questionable. They did not follow to use texts received by the church but texts of questionable origin and authorship.
God puts a man on a throne and God sits a man down from a throne, and King James was head of both the English church as well as head of state. And for God's purpose who moves hearts and controls history He moved upon King James to authorize a new translation. Sure, Jesus is Head of the universal Church but James was head of the church in England just as we call a pastor today as head of any given church.
God allowed them to do what they did in making a "bible" in the fourth century. They didn't do that so that "each congregation had a full and complete copy of the Scriptures;" copies were not made for churches. Various churches in Asia Minor had certain copies made from the originals if they had access to any of the originals. And, no, "the volumes they gathered has remained since then" for volumes were not made for individual churches.
The translating of new age, modern bibles do not use the Received Texts, they use other texts that W&H claim were older but older does not mean accurate nor authorized. What if Obama ordered a bible to be made and he gathered various individuals from various denominations in America, would such a translation be "authorized" for Americans? At what point does someone claim to have authority to make a new translation? How about self-appointed committees such as those that came together to make a new translation (NKJV 1982, or NIV 1973, etc.)?
All these new translations based on the work of W&H only brought confusion to English churches, and other languages. The true history of the bible should be consulted but I know that there was no need for W&H to do what they did. Confusion is not of God. The English-speaking people had an English translation and it was in use profitably for over 250 years. There was no need for a new translation such as what W&H did in 1850s to publish a new translation in 1881. Older is not better.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
It didn't mean all of his descendants. It meant Jesus, even in Abraham's day. As Paul says, it was singular "Seed", not plural "seeds".
Certainly it did, but it is not through all of his descendants that "ALL THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD" would be blessed. It was only in Christ that all the nations are blessed.
Saul/Paul did not write them only to Jews and Jewish Christians. He wrote them to all the followers of Christ who were in Rome, and Galatia, and the other places to whom he wrote. The writings of the New Testament are to the Church, which is composed of EVERYONE who believes in Jesus, both Jew and Gentile alike. There is no longer any division between the two groups spiritually.
Looking at the second and third divisions that he makes, your argument makes no sense. Everyone on Earth is either a slave or free; everyone on Earth is either a male or female; everyone on Earth is either a Jew or something else (in this case characterized by "Greek"). Even the Hellenized Hebrew were still Jews.
smh, Again, there is nothing in a king that empowers him to "authorize" or "not authorize" God's Word. It is God's Word, not any man's, nor is it given to man to allow or disallow. The King may have authority from God in temporal matters, but he has no authority in the Church, nor in Godly matters.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Each succeeding birth would in their lifetimes be inheritors of the promises given to Abraham. Jesus Christ could inherit nothing unless the succeeding generation and the one before that one, etc., would be inheritors of the promises given to Abraham. There was no breach in the passing down of the Abrahamic Promises. But every Hebrew was inheritors of the promises from Isaac to Jacob to Jacob's twelve sons, etc. Now, how was this person an inheritor and what promises did he claim to be inheritor of?
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. Lk 18:18–22.
The question of inheriting eternal life is directly tied to obedience to the Law. AND following Jesus. But when one who is under the Law is born-again, they have received their inheritance of eternal life. And the Law of Moses leads to eternal life. Without the Law there is no eternal life:
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:24.
Take away or claim the Law is "abolished" or "obsolete" then no one can inherit their promises of eternal life. Because as Saul says, "the Law was our [the Jews] schoolmaster TO BRING US TO CHRIST." Saul is clear on this point:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:4–5.
The only people that can inherit eternal life is the Jews (Hebrews, Abraham's seed.) And in this passage below Saul expresses the totality of salvation and to whom salvation/eternal life was promised as an inheritance:
4 Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth the adoption,
and the glory,
and the covenants,
and the giving of the law,
and the service of God,
and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers,
and of whom as concerning the flesh
Christ came,
who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Romans 9:4–5.
And for those Jews and Jewish Christians that were concerned about their standing in the Abrahamic Covenant promises Saul eases their minds by telling them:
27 For as many of you [Jews] as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek [Hellenized Jew], there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye [STILL] Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Gal. 3:27–29.
It refers to Abraham's seed. It is his seed whether through Ishmael, or Isaac, Esau or Jacob, and every seed of Abraham that is blessed, NOT the non-Hebrew Gentile world.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Genesis 17:6.
Take notice of WHO is being blessed but those that are Abraham's descendants ("out of thee.")
Saul was a rabbi and a Pharisee. He knew the Scripture because that was his vocation and responsibility and he just and I knew God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. He KNEW the covenants were between God and the children of Israel and non-Hebrew Gentiles are not the seed of Abram the Hebrew and his Hebrew wife, Sarah, nor do non-Hebrew Gentiles come from his seed. It is biologically impossible for a non-Hebrew offspring to be born to two Hebrew parents (Abraham and Sarah.)
That's right, they were. Mixed heritage but still had Abraham's DNA in their family line and God knows them that are His - even if their Hebrew seed is diluted. God made promise to Abram the Hebrew and with his Hebrew seed, no matter the dilution of his DNA.
For all of God's intent and purposes God sits one on a throne and God takes one off the throne. And when King Henry 8th separated himself from the Roman Church and declared the Anglican Church, he was its head or leader. No popes. No priests. James was head of church and state and God made it happen. And as head of the church James authorized a new translation - actually, updated the Geneva Bible.
And the KJV translation was the Authorized Version for the English-speaking people. And that translation was the standard for the English people until W&H made their corrupt translation without having authority from God to do so and what is the result? CONFUSION.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
He was not just an inheritor of the promise, but the fulfillment of the promise.
Elementary school is a "schoolmaster" to bring us to high school, which is a "schoolmaster" to bring us to college or life in the real world. But when we are out of elementary school, we are no longer subject to the rules that existed in that school: don't run in the halls, sit in this one seat every day, third grade eats lunch at 10:45, fifth grade eats lunch at 11:15, etc. These rules become obsolete when we leave elementary school. So it is with the laws of the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant (and the Law that was a part of it) were nothing more than a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, and when we came under Christ (when He died on the cross) the Law no longer had any power or authority over us. We can still look back on it as part of our history, but it is not relevant as the rules by which we must live today.
Wrong. When the Jews refused to accept Jesus as the Christ (as God knew they would) He turned and offered His salvation to all of the Gentiles (this had been His plan all along). Read further down in Gal 4 and you see that Paul is talking to Gentiles, "at that time, when you did not know God", but right before that he said that, "you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out, “Abba! Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God." The Gentiles to whom he is talking are now sons, and co-heirs with Christ of the inheritance promised to Abraham.
You conveniently omit verse 6. They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel (Jacob). Again down in Rom 9:23-26 he says, that not only are the heirs to come from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles.
Not just Jews, but all who have been baptized into Christ (Jews and Gentiles alike).
Again, not just Hellenized Hebrew, but everyone who is not a Jew (Gentiles in general).
Not "still", but "have become". For he is clear that the Gentiles have become coheirs with Christ to the promise made to Abraham (Rom 8:17).
Again you get it wrong. It is not all of Abraham's seed through which the promise would be fulfilled, but only Isaac (not Ismael), and only through Jacob, not Esau (Rom 9:6-13). But the promise was fulfilled in Christ (who came through Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David) and everyone who accepts Christ (both Jew and Gentile) receives an equal share in the inheritance of Jesus.
It is not his descendants in the flesh that receive the blessing, but his descendants in faith (Rom 9:8). Yes, out of Abraham in the flesh came kings, and the King of Kings, and it is through this last (Jesus) in whom our faith rests that the promise to Abraham is fulfilled.
LOL, again, it is not through the flesh that Abraham's descendants are measured. Even those who came from his flesh are not accorded as his descendants, but only those who have faith in God through Christ.
This shows how little you know of God's Word. God does not care about DNA. As John the baptizer said, God could raise up these stones to be children of Abraham. It does not matter who your parents are, what matters is your faith in God through Christ Jesus.
So you are saying that James became the "pope" of this new religion? And that new religion still had the same "priests" and "clergy", but they didn't stay with the catholics because Henry wanted to get a divorce (something condemned by God) and the pope would not allow it. So Henry's sin caused him to break with the catholic leadership and declare himself as new leader of a new religion (the "anglican church").
The KJV may be "authorized" by the catholic church, or the anglican church, but it is not "authorized" by God any more than any other translation. It is God's Word in as much as it is a direct translation of the original texts. There are thousands of copies of the originals (I don't know that we have any of the original letters that were actually written by the original writers), and those copies differ only slightly (a missing dot on an "I", or a missing accent on a letter here or there), but in the whole they are completely accurate and identical. It is in the consensus of the volume of sameness that the authenticity of the copies (like the Dead Sea Scrolls) is verified. I don't really know why you have a thing for W&H, but they are not the problem here.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Yes, but as each succeeding generation was an actual inheritor of the Promises - including the Mosaic Promises. If there was a breach of the bloodline then the inheritance could not pass from one son to the next and so forth. Each generation as they lived were the actual inheritors of the Promises of God and it passed down to each son of the seed of Abraham. At the time Jesus walked Jerusalem the Jews knew and understood mostly their inheritance and so it wasn't only Jesus. Jesus would not deny any Hebrew of their inheritance as recorded here:
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Lk 18:18–22.
And if one understanding the inheritance of salvation promised to the seed of Abraham one would know this man did what Jesus instructed and was most likely among the three thousand Jews born-again on the day of the Feast of Harvest when the Holy Spirit arrived. Notice Jesus directs the man to the Law of Moses and then instructs the man to obedience. And it makes no sense for those that hold the Law was "abolished" or made "obsolete" at any time in Hebrew history. The Law, as Saul wrote, is what guides a Jew to knowing Jesus as their Kinsman-Redeemer, Lord, and King.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal. 3:24.
Without the Law, the Psalms and the Prophets are not enough to instruct the Jew in recognizing their Savior and their King.
Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old, then what? It doesn't matter anymore? No, The Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets ALL instruct the Jew in their history in their God but it is the Law of Moses and the sacrificial system God gave to the children of Israel that explains their redemption in Christ/Messiah. Without the Law Jesus' work and life would lose its meaning. It was the Law which became the Jews' justification. Upon what else does God justify the child of Israel? Roman law? No, the Law of Moses. If every mouth is stopped and every Jew is guilty of breaking the Law it is in their salvation that God sees them as perfectly obedient of the Law just as Jesus was.
The problem is people who think the Scripture is written to and for the non-Hebrew Gentile when it is not. Israel was the possessor and inheritor of their Scripture and oracles of God from Genesis to Revelation. Since God made no covenant with non-Hebrew, non-Abrahamic Gentiles He certainly would not all of a sudden write anything to them which you call the NT. The New Testament writings are the Jew and Jewish Christians' discussion, argument, and attempts at understanding the New Covenant era Israel found themselves in after Jesus and after the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL as written by Joel.
I didn't. The discussion is Ishamel and Isaac, and Esau and Jacob.
It doesn't say non-Hebrews are in any of the three Hebrew salvation covenants. God made no covenant with non-Hebrews. Only with Abraham and with HIS SEED.
No, Greek from Saul's perspective were mixed heritage Hebrews who did not return with Nehemiah. The majority of all living Jews stayed in the Gentile lands they grew up in for about 15-20 generations. Hebrews after their exile and without a Temple lost their heritage and in time lived like Gentiles oblivious of their Hebrew heritage.
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom. 8:17.
Yes, children of Israel. God made no covenant with non-Hebrews and as Scripture records God saves through covenant promises.
Gentile heresy. God made no covenant to save non-Hebrew, non-Abrahamic Gentiles. None. I find no Gode and non-Hebrew Gentile covenant in all of Scripture. And the Hebrew Scripture is the type and shadow. If there's no Old Testament precedence then there is no New Testament reality. God saves through covenant and there is no covenant between God and the non-Hebrew Gentile. One must be a descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be in Abraham's Covenant. Also, one must be a child of Israel (Jacob) to be in the Mosaic Covenant, and one must be of the House of Israel and Judah to be in the New Covenant, which is the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Messiah.
Even today every Jew is an inheritor of the Promises. It doesn't end at Jesus.
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Lk 18:18.
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
Mk 10:17–19.
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Lk. 10:25–28.
The Law instructed the Jew in eternal life. Salvation is covenantal.
What was Jesus' response? He directed the man to the Law of Moses and then instructed him to obey it. So, for those that say the Law is "abolished" or "obsolete" destroys the way in which one can be guided to Christ. And even to this day the Law exists to guide the Jew to their Savior. Without the Law Jesus' life and work is meaningless.
Read the Hebrew Scripture with a Hebrew mindset not a Gentile mindset and come to the knowledge of the truth.
It was God Himself who divided the families of Adam. It was God who guided Salah and every obedient person who "called upon the LORD" in their own lives and when Salah "crossed over" the Jordan River then it became the family line of Eber through whom God separated the masses. Then God forever separated the Hebrew from the rest of the Adamites with a covenant and sealed the deal with circumcision. And only the descendants of Eber possessed the covenants of God.
You see, we have the benefit of hindsight, but the first century Jews did not. All they had was their Scripture. The Law, Psalms, and Prophets all directed the Jew to Messiah. And when Jesus came, they had some things to work out and understand. But it was the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL that helped the Jew to understand the New Covenant era Israel found themselves in and that took time. Apollos, Priscilla, Barnabas, Peter, James, John - these apostles to the Jew - had to search the Scripture in order to understand the New Covenant era they found themselves in and this took time. It was people like the above and Saul, Epaphroditus, etc. that searched the Scripture to learn what God was doing in Israel. And the Holy Spirit was promised to Israel, not Gentiles. Read Joel.
Of course it is Authorized by God. Who else sets a man on the throne but God, and God directs the kings heart just as God did with David and Solomon, etc.
And in my prayers God used the KJV to speak to me, so I know firsthand the authority behind this translation.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
"Yes, but" nothing! If He is the fulfillment of the promise, then everyone who is in Him receives the blessing of the promise. And both Jew and Gentile alike are invited to enter into relationship with Him (Eph 2:13-15).
LOL, you don't read your Scripture, do you? This young man went away sad, because he loved his money more than he loved God, and he did not (from all appearances) obey what Jesus told him to do.
Clearly you did. Ishmael is not the heir to the promise, but Isaac is. Esau is not the heir to the promise, but Isaac is. Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise, and He shares His reward with everyone who comes to Him in faith, both Jew and Gentile alike.
His Seed (singular), meaning Christ.
And there have only ever been two covenants of salvation with God: the Old, which was promised to Adam, made with Abraham, renewed with Isaac, renewed again with Jacob, renewed again with Moses, and fulfilled in Jesus the Messiah; and the New Covenant, which was foretold in Jeremiah, inaugurated and sealed with Jesus' blood, and is available to everyone (both Jew and Gentile) who come to Jesus in faith.
LOL, again, you don't know your Scriptures. Not every Jew is an inheritor of the Promises made to Abraham. Only those Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah, and come to Him in faith will inherit the Promises. If they fail to believe in Him, then they are cut off from Israel and will not inherit (Rom 11:19-20).
Again, no. Jews were not separated from "the rest of the Adamites" forever: only until Christ.
The original Greek and Hebrew writings were "authorized" by God. All translations are man's works to better facilitate the spreading of the Gospel to the speakers of each language. The English KJV is no more "authorized" than is the Chinese translation, or the Hindi, or the French, or the German, etc. If the KJV is the "authorized" version, it was by man, not God.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Where do you get "Gentile" from? Where in the Hebrew Scripture does God make or have covenant with the non-Hebrew Gentile? And it must find some expression in the Old Testament in order to have a New Testament reality. ALL the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation is the Jewish born-again mind that since the giving of God's Promised Spirit to Israel when they are born-again which searches the [Hebrew] Scripture for "doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness" and for doctrine understood going towards the New Covenant era Israel found itself in with the Advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL (Joel) and not promised to any non-Hebrew Gentile.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel,
And that I am the LORD your God, and none else:
And my people shall never be ashamed.
Joel 2:27.
The Holy Spirit of Promise is definitely given to Israel and NOT to Gentiles (non-Hebrews.) For what follows in Joel's prophecy to Israel is the giving of God's Spirit upon ALL [Hebrew] flesh, and it is [their] sons and [their] daughters that shall see visions, etc., when the day of the Spirit is given to covenant Israel at Pentecost. Three thousand Jews were born-again that day, and it says that Christ "added to His Church (thousands) daily such as should be saved." Very soon in the narrative comes the Hellenized Hebrew of whom the Judaizers from Jerusalem taught these brethren of mixed heritage they must be circumcised or they couldn't be saved. These Judaizers would be teaching that these mixed heritage Hebrews need to be circumcised for they would never seek to teach or command non-Hebrew Gentiles to be circumcised for this would be anathema to all Jewry. No Jew - Jewish Christian or layman Jew - would never command uncircumcised, non-covenant, Gentile "dogs", these unclean Gentiles to be circumcised. It is unheard of.
The command given "come, follow me" is a command that was similarly given to Andrew and Peter, to James and John, and to another, "follow me and let the dead bury the dead." This interaction between Jesus and this "ruler" who had great possessions was commanded by Christ to "follow me" and may very well be among the three thousand Jews on Pentecost who was born-again and who did obey Jesus to sell all his possessions and to also give to the poor like Barnabas who sold his property and gave the proceeds to the apostles. Mark states that, "Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."
This ruler, it can be discerned, was among those Jews on Pentecost who were born-again and along with others,
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Acts 2:45.
But the command was given to "take up your cross and follow me." Matthew received the same command to "follow me." And when the Spirit of Promise was poured out upon all Hebrew flesh this ruler became saved. If the text says, "[Jesus] loved him" you can bet that Jesus would not allow one of His covenant people whom He loves to be lost and cast into "hell." Those that Jesus loves shall ALL be saved. Even this ruler. The example is found here:
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. Acts 2:45.
If Jesus loves "you", He will save "you" for He came to save those He loved, right? Greater love hath no man than this," right?
That's right.
God nor Christ has ever made covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. And God saves through covenant and this is established in Scripture. The Hebrew seed of Abraham have covenant promises given by God to the children of Israel. Neither Father or Son have covenant with non-Abraham, non-Hebrew Gentiles. There is no such covenant in Scripture.
You mention Jeremiah but why do that if you're not going to believe his prophecy of the New Covenant between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Where in this New Covenant described by Jeremiah - whom you mention - does God make covenant with non-Abraham, non-Hebrew Gentiles? Where? There is none.
NO ONE can show me in Jeremiah 31:31-34 that God has covenant with Gentiles. Where is this "phantom" covenant with Gentiles? Where in Jeremaih 31:31-34 does it say the "House of Gentiles"? Don't add to the bible or add to the New Covenant Jeremaih prophesied that includes non-Hebrew Gentiles. Where is this Gentile covenant? Show me the money and show me the Scripture.
The mechanism of the New Covenant is only the Mosaic Covenant fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Jesus died on a cross and the Law was nailed to the cross, and when one resurrected in newness of life, so did the Law resurrect in newness of life and it has become God's declaration of every Jew that became born-again. For every Jew that was born-again was justified by God as having obeyed and fulfilled every aspect of the Law of Moses. Even Saul, after being born-again continued to obey the Law of Moses thus destroying the false theology that the Law was "abolished" or "obsolete" for how else can one be born-again separate from the Law for it leads the Jew to their Lord. Take away the Law and the work, sacrifice, and Person of Christ is also "abolished" or "obsolete" and this is the great delusion of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20.
Even Saul, who as a man separated and observing his Nazarene vows obeyed the Law of Moses AFTER his conversion to Christ:
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.
The Law nailed to Jesus' cross died and was raised by Christ the Law of Moses very much alive and well and joined to Christ in death and in newness of life.
There was a separation of a one family obedient to God. Salah, who took his family and "crossed over" the Jordan River and separated from the disobedient Adamites who remained together and chose to build a tower. Follow those obedient to God against those disobedient to God and what became of those obedient to God. You end up with Abraham who was among others who "called upon the LORD."
10 These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
11 And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
12 And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
13 And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
14 And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
15 And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
16 And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
17 And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
18 And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:
19 And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.
20 And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug:
21 And Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.
22 And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor:
23 And Serug lived after he begat Nahor two hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
24 And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:
25 And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.
26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran. Gen. 11:10–26.
It's all right here in these passages.
Jesus is Head of Church and State. James was head of Church and State and gave permission by God to publish a new translation for the English-speaking people. Even if Trump was a born-again Christian and led by the Spirit (which He wouldn't do) cannot sign an Executive Order and gather the linguists of our day and order a new translation. He is head of the State but not of the Church. Not even King Charles III can order a new translation being Head of Church and State. It is unnecessary for we have a translation that is the best and most anointed work of God back in 1604-1611. It is a matter of authority. And God sits a person on a throne and God removes one from a throne and no other translation is necessary than the King James Version of the Bible.
Authority.
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