Eternal Security

Soyeong said:
It does not give someone any assurance that they will be saved if we tell them that they have eternal security unless they happen to be someone who will turn away without returning, so adding that exception in order to maintain OSAS is self-defeating.
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so we tell them alie and say you mess up you go to hell?
 
ezra said:
so we tell them alie and say you mess up you go to hell?
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We can't lose our salvation on accident, but whether someone can deliberately turn their back on God is another matter. When someone messes up, then they have a choice of whether they are going to continue to practice repentance and return to obedience to God through faith or whether they are going to continue to live in unrepentant sin.
 
dizerner said:
God tells us to be persevering in asking him.

Yet you call that "the devil."


What I have found is people think the following is "asking God":

Reading a book.

Arguing online.

Reading the Bible.


None of that is prayer.
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Strange that you think prayer will show you what the truth is, when prayer also shows your opposition what the truth is.

The truth is that God saves whom he will and only whom he will, and, further, that whatever he has begun, he will bring to completion.
 
360watt said:
Yea he did come back to faithfulness, but had grievous sin in his life also. The chances are a believer will turn from sin as they go on in the walk, because they have the Holy Spirit.. but it isn't a guarantee.

God doesn't save only those He knows will be faithful to the end. He saves anyone.
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Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22
placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
 
makesends said:
Strange that you think prayer will show you what the truth is, when prayer also shows your opposition what the truth is.
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I have never—in decades of discussing this with people—met a single person who believed error who spent significant time humbling themselves
and asking God for the truth in prayer.

I have challenged many to fast and pray with me together, so that we both might see our error and come to the truth—I have never yet, been accepted.

I know the time and effort I have spent—personally—I am not bragging here, this is just facts. Thousands of hours without exaggeration.

And yet someone with a pitiful prayer life and a big strong opinion wants me to take them as seriously, as a source of authority, while not paying God this respect he asks of us in Scripture.

Think about that for a second outside your preset theological terms that override what Scripture tells us:

Seek and ye shall find.
 
makesends said:
Strange that you think prayer will show you what the truth is, when prayer also shows your opposition what the truth is.

The truth is that God saves whom he will and only whom he will, and, further, that whatever he has begun, he will bring to completion.
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As a Calvinist, I invite your response to some of my posts:

 
civic said:
Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 1:22
placed His seal on us, and put His Spirit in our hearts as a pledge of what is to come.

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
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I, even I, am He Who blots out and cancels your transgressions, for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins. Isaiah 43:25

As far as east from the west

Sounds like a guarantee to me. He saves us He keeps us and He makes sure that we get all the way home to be with Him for eternity.
 
dizerner said:
Promises have conditions.

Unless you are a Calvinist......
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Yet there is not one example of a born again believer in the N.T. having the Holy Spirit taken from them. Scripture states its a guarantee, a pledge from God for our future inheritance and a seal that cannot be broken. Jesus said those He gives eternal life to are forever secure in Him- no one can remove anyone from His hands or the Fathers. Security in Christ from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Its a promise from out Triune God and we know God keeps His promises since He does not lie or deceive His children.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
we know God keeps His promises since He does not lie or deceive His children.
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Again, all you are doing is rehashing promises while ignoring conditions.

Not an honest way to deal with Scripture.

God does not rape your free will after you are saved, any more than before.

Now non-Lordship Calvinism is really the only logical form of Eternal Security out there, because it completely eliminates free will.
 
dizerner said:
Again, all you are doing is rehashing promises while ignoring conditions.

Not an honest way to deal with Scripture.

God does not rape your free will after you are saved, any more than before.

Now non-Lordship Calvinism is really the only logical form of Eternal Security out there, because it completely eliminates free will.
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you have not proven any conditions form the N.T. for losing eternal life and have the Holy Spirit removed from a born again believer. You cannot prove your negative conditions, they are assumptions.

And you would be wrong as I hold to Lordship salvation and free will. :)
 
Security in the promises of Jesus and the Apostles.

In Johns writing we read the following regarding Jesus. He was in the beginning with God(John 1:1,1 John 1:1-4) We also read that in Him was life, the very source of life (John 1:4)whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life(3:16) He who believes in the Son has eternal life(3:36) He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day(6:54)This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent(17:3)These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life(1 John 5:13).

Jesus is in fact Eternal Life. He who has the Son has the life and he who does not have the Son does not have the life. He is the true God and Eternal Life(1 John 1:1-4,5:20).

Eternal life is not just unending life. It is the life we now have in God through Jesus. John refers to Jesus Christ Himself as eternal life. It is life that comes from God. A person who has eternal life has God’s life within him.

It is obvious that eternal life doesn’t begin when we die. Jesus said, He who believes in Me has (present tense) everlasting life. He didn’t say that the one who believes in Him will have (future tense) everlasting life. He said that he has eternal life in the here and now from that very first moment of faith. Eternal life is unending life.

Jesus, Paul and John emphasize that eternal life is a present reality and the present possession of the Christian in the here and now. It will have its ultimate fulfillment in the future but every believer has eternal life at the moment they believe in the Son of God.

Jesus said I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. (John 10:28).That means nothing or no one can remove a believer from Christ.

Paul tells us in Ephesians 4:30 that believers are sealed for the day of redemption. If believers did not have salvation or eternal life/security then the sealing could not truly be until the day of redemption. Paul in Romans 8:38-39 really drives home the everlasting promise of eternal life/salvation for the believer "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Our eternal security is bought with the blood of Christ, promised to us by the Father Who cannot deny Himself and sealed in the believers heart by the Holy Spirit. What wonderful promises believers have for their eternal security in Christ.

Jesus tells us in John 3:15-16 that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will have eternal life, not might have but actually possesses that everlasting life. If a person is promised eternal life and then to have it taken away then it was never eternal to begin with and it makes Jesus out to be a liar and the promises of God to be false. Below we see more promises the believer can count on for eternal life now and in the future. We can be confident in the promises of God.

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life;

John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

John 6:54
54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 10:27-30
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

Matt 25:46
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed out of death into life,

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
 
Here in John Jesus tells us, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one”. John 10:27-30

Here are five distinct points made by Jesus:

1. His sheep hear His voice.

2. He knows them.

3. They follow Him.

4. He gives them eternal life.

5. They shall never perish because:
a. His Father gave them to Him;
b. No one can snatch them out of the Father’s hand because He is greater than all;
c. He and the Father are One; therefore, no one can snatch them out of His hand either.

Could eternal security be more clearly stated?

The category of “no one” is every believer, no believer is excluded from this category. So no one, not even the believer, can take himself from the Father’s hand.

If we examine other translations, we again see the emphasis of this passage.

The Amplified Bible renders John 10:28: “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed. And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.”

My personal favorite, Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament renders it, “And they shall positively not perish, never.”

What could be more clear?
 
dizerner said:
I have never—in decades of discussing this with people—met a single person who believed error who spent significant time humbling themselves
and asking God for the truth in prayer.

I have challenged many to fast and pray with me together, so that we both might see our error and come to the truth—I have never yet, been accepted.

I know the time and effort I have spent—personally—I am not bragging here, this is just facts. Thousands of hours without exaggeration.

And yet someone with a pitiful prayer life and a big strong opinion wants me to take them as seriously, as a source of authority, while not paying God this respect he asks of us in Scripture.

Think about that for a second outside your preset theological terms that override what Scripture tells us:

Seek and ye shall find.
Click to expand...

And so, therefore, what you have found after "significant time humbling [yourself] and asking God for the truth in prayer", are the one who has it figured out, as opposed to myself, who have spent most my life in spiritual agony, begging God for the truth, and who doesn't claim to have it right, who challenge others to show what I believe to be wrong, who found something precious to believe, through that lifetime of agonized prayer and Bible study, and I believe it because I found it to finally be something that makes sense to me, directly from Scripture, that my spirit affirms.

You may be surprised to find that I don't claim to be a Calvinist. I only found out that they believe pretty much the same thing I do. And they say some things I say, only they say it better than I do. All I knew about Calvinism was the caricatures I had been told. I once thought like you do, but had to abandon it because it doesn't make sense to me, and it assumes things that the Scriptures deny rather strongly (to put it nicely).

Unlike yourself, I will happily admit I am wrong if I am shown how it is wrong, but so far it has not happened, except when I came to see that my life is not my own, and that my eternal destiny does not hinge on me, but on God himself.

I can only guess that your bias against Calvinism is what makes you judge me without knowing me. You might want to tone down the self-righteousness. Thousands of hours have been spent by better minds than yours, supposing themselves to be humble, and becoming convinced of grave error.
 
dizerner said:
Again, all you are doing is rehashing promises while ignoring conditions.

Not an honest way to deal with Scripture.

God does not rape your free will after you are saved, any more than before.

Now non-Lordship Calvinism is really the only logical form of Eternal Security out there, because it completely eliminates free will.
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your conditions cannot be proved with Scripture. they are your assumption which causes you to reject the security believers have in Christ through His promises.
 
makesends said:
And so, therefore, what you have found after "significant time humbling [yourself] and asking God for the truth in prayer", are the one who has it figured out, as opposed to myself, who have spent most my life in spiritual agony, begging God for the truth, and who doesn't claim to have it right, who challenge others to show what I believe to be wrong, who found something precious to believe, through that lifetime of agonized prayer and Bible study, and I believe it because I found it to finally be something that makes sense to me, directly from Scripture, that my spirit affirms.

You may be surprised to find that I don't claim to be a Calvinist. I only found out that they believe pretty much the same thing I do. And they say some things I say, only they say it better than I do. All I knew about Calvinism was the caricatures I had been told. I once thought like you do, but had to abandon it because it doesn't make sense to me, and it assumes things that the Scriptures deny rather strongly (to put it nicely).

Unlike yourself, I will happily admit I am wrong if I am shown how it is wrong, but so far it has not happened, except when I came to see that my life is not my own, and that my eternal destiny does not hinge on me, but on God himself.

I can only guess that your bias against Calvinism is what makes you judge me without knowing me. You might want to tone down the self-righteousness. Thousands of hours have been spent by better minds than yours, supposing themselves to be humble, and becoming convinced of grave error.
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as we read in 1 Corinthians 13 love/humility is not boastful or proud nor does it take pleasure in insulting others, does not act rude.

1 Cor 13- AMP
Love endures with patience and serenity, love is kind and thoughtful, and is not jealous or envious; love does not brag and is not proud or arrogant. 5 It is not rude; it is not self-seeking, it is not provoked [nor overly sensitive and easily angered]; it does not take into account a wrong endured. 6 It does not rejoice at injustice, but rejoices with the truth [when right and truth prevail]. 7 Love bears all things [regardless of what comes], believes all things [looking for the best in each one], hopes all things [remaining steadfast during difficult times], endures all things [without weakening].
 
dizerner said:
If you don't specifically ask God in a serious way whether it's true, the stronghold will remain.
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If you don't specifically ask God in a serious way whether it's true, the stronghold will remain with the fear of losing salvation. This works both ways. :)
 
brightfame52 said:
What are the conditions of eternal security or the assurance of going to heaven, who must meet those conditions ?
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Keep the faith.

imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises (Heb. 6:12 NKJ)
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering (Heb. 10:23 NKJ)
 

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