Eternal Security

[Handaan]

Yes, that is correct. Salvation is a gift of God, but there are conditions to receive it, and those conditions must be met until we die.

Conditions... I just checked in to see what condition my condition was in. There's conditions on receiving a free gift of salvation. Wow how does that work? Like I got this gift for you but you got to earn it first. Are you kidding me? And guess what you got to keep on working till you die no retirement for you buddy. If that's not work salvation then I don't know what is.

 

[dwight92070]

Who said anything about Forced? Who said anything about losing free will? Where did you see that in my post? Nowhere. A True Believer obeys Christ out of love Willingly. Force involves fear. "Where God's love is, there is no fear, because God's perfect love drives out fear. It is punishment that makes a person fear, so love is not made perfect in the person who fears." 1 John 4:18

Try Rebuking the scriptures I posted. Tell me how those show you can lose your salvation.

"True believers are not able to leave Christ ..." is what you said. Why not? What or who is keeping them from leaving Him, if they so desire? Your statement implies that they are forced to stay, that they cannot leave Him, that they cannot exercise their free will to leave Him. It's all over your post. Who's rebuking anyone? I'm simply defending the scripture.
In John 6:66 many of Jesus' disciples LEFT HIM and were not walking with HIM anymore. A disciple is a follower of Jesus. Please show me in that passage where it says that those who left Him were not true believers. In verse 67, Jesus says to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" They could have left right then and there. Jesus was not stopping them - but they freely chose to stay with Him.

 

[Ozias]

Jesus died for spiritually impotent people Rom. 3:10–12 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands, no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one.”

He died for people who were helpless to prepare themselves, helpless to prove themselves worthy, helpless to do or think or say anything that might attract God’s love. Contrary to the aphorism “God helps those who help themselves,” God helps those who are utterly and absolutely helpless.

Jesus died for ungodly people, that is, people who are both unlike God and opposed to God. Jesus died for sinful people. He didn’t die for a single righteous person. Jesus died for his enemies. Jesus didn’t die for a single friend. He died for rebellious, insolent, haughty, arrogant, self-righteous, repulsive, disobedient, at-war-with-God people.

 

[brightfame52]

That is not what Scripture says. We are heirs because we believe (Acts 16:31, 1 Cor 1:21, Heb 10:39, Eph 2:8, and many others).

Precisely, ALL BELIEVERS are children of promise. It is the believing that brings about the "becoming a child of God".

You forgot to say that they are children of promise prior to believing.

 

[brightfame52]

It appears that God predestined Isaac to be the "child of promise" for Abraham and Sarah. But that says nothing about his personal salvation. God did not MAKE him a man of faith. He had to choose whether he to put his faith in God or not. It appears that he made the right choice.
We must BELIEVE FIRST before we can be the children of promise of the children of Abraham. With God, FAITH always PRECEDES Sonship.

Yes, IF we choose the faith in God that Abraham did.

The only reason Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob could be eternally secure, is that they DECIDED TO PUT THEIR TRUST IN GOD UNTIL DEATH - and they followed through until death.
None of them were chosen to be saved, they were chosen to be the origin of the nation of Israel and the line of the Messiah. They each had to personally choose whether they would put their faith in God or not. It appears that they all made the right choice. God did not MAKE them willing, that was their choice.

Aint no ifs, Did Isaac have a choice in being an heir, a child of promise ? No sir

 

[Doug Brents]

Jesus died for spiritually impotent people Rom. 3:10–12 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands, no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one.”

He died for people who were helpless to prepare themselves, helpless to prove themselves worthy, helpless to do or think or say anything that might attract God’s love. Contrary to the aphorism “God helps those who help themselves,” God helps those who are utterly and absolutely helpless.

Jesus died for ungodly people, that is, people who are both unlike God and opposed to God. Jesus died for sinful people. He didn’t die for a single righteous person. Jesus died for his enemies. Jesus didn’t die for a single friend. He died for rebellious, insolent, haughty, arrogant, self-righteous, repulsive, disobedient, at-war-with-God people.

None of that is under debate. We all agree with that (at lease I do, sorry if I am speaking out of turn for anyone else here). What is being contended is that there are conditions that God put in place that man must meet if he is to receive the gift that God purchased with Jesus' blood. If those conditions are not met by each individual, and maintained by that individual for the rest of that person's life, then the results of that sacrifice will not be received by that individual.

 

[Ozias]

"True believers are not able to leave Christ ..." is what you said. Why not? What or who is keeping them from leaving Him, if they so desire? Your statement implies that they are forced to stay, that they cannot leave Him, that they cannot exercise their free will to leave Him. It's all over your post. Who's rebuking anyone? I'm simply defending the scripture.
In John 6:66 many of Jesus' disciples LEFT HIM and were not walking with HIM anymore. A disciple is a follower of Jesus. Please show me in that passage where it says that those who left Him were not true believers. In verse 67, Jesus says to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" They could have left right then and there. Jesus was not stopping them - but they freely chose to stay with Him.

You can be a follower of Jesus and not be saved. And why did they freely choose to stay with Jesus? What did they say
“Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

They weren't about to leave Jesus because they knew who he was. The ones that left didn't, they thought he was some roadside preacher Not realizing he was the Messiah.

Understand the answer to the question you asked why don't they leave? Because they know who Jesus is and what he's done for them they understand the gospel and they're thankful for their salvation. They've got eternal life. They love him.

 

[Ozias]

None of that is under debate. We all agree with that (at lease I do, sorry if I am speaking out of turn for anyone else here). What is being contended is that there are conditions that God put in place that man must meet if he is to receive the gift that God purchased with Jesus' blood. If those conditions are not met by each individual, and maintained by that individual for the rest of that person's life, then the results of that sacrifice will not be received by that individual.

Works salvation

 

[dwight92070]

Conditions... I just checked in to see what condition my condition was in. There's conditions on receiving a free gift of salvation. Wow how does that work?

For by grace you have been saved THROUGH FAITH (a condition, NOT a work); and that (salvation) not of yourselves, it is the (gift) of God. You must have faith(the required condition to be met) to receive the gift of salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9
Faith is NOT a work that we do to earn something.
"But to the one WHO DOES NOT WORK, BUT BELIEVES IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, HIS FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Romans 4:5 speaking of the faith that Abraham had and that we can have.
That's how that works.

Like I got this gift for you but you got to earn it first. Are you kidding me? And guess what you got to keep on working till you die no retirement for you buddy. If that's not work salvation then I don't know what is.

Faith without works is dead according to James 2:17: "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself."
So yes, we need to be zealous for good deeds or works the rest of our lives. Titus 2:14: " ... and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, ZEALOUS FOR GOOD DEEDS."
We practice good deeds NOT TO GET SAVED, but out of obedience, because we ARE saved.
And that's how that works.

 

[dwight92070]

Works salvation

Faith, the condition for salvation, is NOT a work. Romans 4:5 This is a good verse to memorize: "But to the one WHO DOES NOT WORK, BUT BELIEVES IN HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGODLY, HIS FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Faith or believing in Jesus IS NOT a WORK.
AFTER we are born again, we are obedient to Jesus, so we are zealous to practice good works.

 

[dwight92070]

Love and logic. If you were to ask most people, they’d tell you that one often precludes the other. Logic is all about the mind. Love is all about the heart. Logic is about reason. Love is about relationships. Logic is concerned with principles whereas love is all about passion.

Salvation is all about love. John 3:16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

I like that.... believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) If you really believe you keep On Believing. Once you have Jesus in your life and you look back and realize how messed up your life was before you came to Christ you would never want to leave him. That's love.

Now logic on the other hand is always looking for a loophole. You can keep your logic I'll take the love of Christ any day.

This topic is so practical and helpful to think about because of what it reveals about God. This doctrine is a window into the heart of our heavenly Father. This truth pulls back the curtain on the mystery of God’s ways and shines a light into the depths of how he thinks and feels and what his purposes are for you and me.

And nowhere is this better seen than in Romans 5:6–11:
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

The point of the apostle here is that our hope is as secure as God’s love is sincere. We are secure in our salvation as long as God loves us. But what if God should stop loving us? What if something should happen to diminish his passion for his people? Paul’s purpose in the above verses is to prove that such A thing will never happen. God's the author and the finisher of our faith.

I know the works salvation folks want to have their hand in it somehow someway, sorry it's not the way it works. We love him because he first loved us and love never fails.

Yes, I agree with you, the folks who say we are saved by our good works are misinterpreting the Bible. Also, logic is a gift from God - without it you or I could have not have even written these posts.

 

[Speculator]

This looks like where all the action is, are we having fun yet? It's not a debate for me. If you think you can lose your salvation that's on you. But I do know this. that the cross is the demonstration of God’s love for us, not the provocation of it. Christ’s love did not procure or obtain the love of God. It was a manifestation of that love. Jesus doesn’t stand before the Father pleading, “Oh, Father, I died for them; therefore love them.” Rather he declares, “You love them, Father, and that is why I died for them.”

My understanding is that God loved us in spite of our unloveliness, not because of our loveliness. Nothing in us stirred God’s heart to send his Son. He sent his Son solely because of his character as a loving God. When God contemplated the objects of his redemptive love, he saw only sin, rebellion, enmity, and resistance. The love of God in Christ is magnified in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

God saw us as weak and ungodly people, not as treasures. The only thing we stirred in God’s heart was wrath. The only thing we incline God to do is judge us eternally. God gave his Son in love solely because of his great and unfathomable determination to love those who were the moral antithesis of himself and the enemies of everything he regards as holy, true, and right.

And now you want to tell me that I have to act and behave good enough to earn that salvation and keep that salvation. That doesn't even enter into the equation. What I have to do is called the Shema.

Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.” This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:29

 

[dwight92070]

P.S. Also those who say that we should not be engaged in good works AFTER we are born again, are also misinterpreting the Bible.

 

[civic]

P.S. Also those who say that we should not be engaged in good works AFTER we are born again, are also misinterpreting the Bible.

Ephesians 2:10 says those who are saved by grace through faith have been prepared beforehand by God to do good works and walk in them.

 

[Anja]

P.S. Also those who say that we should not be engaged in good works AFTER we are born again, are also misinterpreting the Bible.

I don't think anyone says you shouldn't engage in good works. I think what people are referring to Is you don't get brownie points for doing good works. We naturally want to do good works, Or make that "Kind Deeds" because we are saved not to get saved or stay saved. That can include your pocketbook which I know is where a lot of people draw the line. The bottom line is we do it out of the goodness of our hearts.

Matthew 6:1-24 “Watch out! Don't do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven. When you give to someone in need, don't do as the hypocrites do—blowing trumpets in the synagogues and streets to call attention to their acts of charity!

So there are rewards for doing good deeds but it doesn't have anything to do with your salvation. We are eternally secure because of what Jesus did.

 

[dwight92070]

This looks like where all the action is, are we having fun yet? It's not a debate for me. If you think you can lose your salvation that's on you. But I do know this. that the cross is the demonstration of God’s love for us, not the provocation of it. Christ’s love did not procure or obtain the love of God. It was a manifestation of that love. Jesus doesn’t stand before the Father pleading, “Oh, Father, I died for them; therefore love them.” Rather he declares, “You love them, Father, and that is why I died for them.”

My understanding is that God loved us in spite of our unloveliness, not because of our loveliness. Nothing in us stirred God’s heart to send his Son. He sent his Son solely because of his character as a loving God. When God contemplated the objects of his redemptive love, he saw only sin, rebellion, enmity, and resistance. The love of God in Christ is magnified in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

God saw us as weak and ungodly people, not as treasures. The only thing we stirred in God’s heart was wrath. The only thing we incline God to do is judge us eternally. God gave his Son in love solely because of his great and unfathomable determination to love those who were the moral antithesis of himself and the enemies of everything he regards as holy, true, and right.

And now you want to tell me that I have to act and behave good enough to earn that salvation and keep that salvation. That doesn't even enter into the equation. What I have to do is called the Shema.

Do you think we can refuse to obey Jesus for the rest of our lives and still keep our salvation? I don't. Well, He commands us, since we have put our faith and trust in Him and we love Him, to do good works until He returns. The Bible says that on the Last day, Judgment Day, that we will be judged by our works. Look at Matthew 25:31-46. Those who fed the hungry, gave water to the thirsty, were hospitable to strangers, clothed the poor, visited the sick and the prisoners - were welcomed into God's presence to inherit the kingdom prepared for them - as if they had done all those things for Jesus Himself. Those who ignored all those people were condemned to eternal punishment - as if they had ignored Jesus Himself.
I don't know about you, but I want to be in that first group, because that is what is pleasing to Jesus My Lord.

Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.” This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:29

 

[Handaan]

Yes, I agree with you, the folks who say we are saved by our good works are misinterpreting the Bible. Also, logic is a gift from God - without it you or I could have not have even written these posts.

We would survive, We might have to get a sandwich sign that says Jesus loves you on the front and back and stand on the corner. Then we would definitely have to use both love and logic. Things are pretty mellow here in New Mexico but there's a lot of places it's dangerous to be a Christian.

 

[Speculator]

Do you think we can refuse to obey Jesus for the rest of our lives and still keep our salvation?

Where did I say that? I don't think if you're a believer you would ever want to refuse to obey Jesus. Because of the love in your heart for him you would definitely want to obey him. We keep our salvation because of what Jesus has done for us not about anything we do. That's why it's called eternal security. We are eternally secure in Christ. You have to be in Christ.

You know Jesus came to give us eternal life right? How long does eternal life last? It's eternal right. So no one has the ability to change that. Once it's yours it's yours you can't give it back and God doesn't take it back. He changes you from the inside out you're a new creation, old things have passed away behold all things have become new. You're now a follower of Christ. That doesn't mean you're on a leash and he takes you for a walk around the block it means that we do what he has called us to do.

A lot of us have been called to do some pretty rugged stuff. I've never met anybody that's complained about being used of God. We're all happy to do it. I did Street Ministry for 10 years. It's like second nature to me today. I can walk up to any homeless person and within 15 seconds I can have them talking with me about Jesus. I know exactly where they're coming from. I have a heart for them.

There's a thing called "separating your who from your do". My who is who I am in Christ. That's what saves me. My do Is the way I represent Christ. In my perfect at it? Of course not. Do I want to do the best that I can to please my Lord and Savior? You bet I do. Because I love him.

 

[dwight92070]

I don't think anyone says you shouldn't engage in good works. I think what people are referring to Is you don't get brownie points for doing good works. We naturally want to do good works, Or make that "Kind Deeds" because we are saved not to get saved or stay saved. That can include your pocketbook which I know is where a lot of people draw the line. The bottom line is we do it out of the goodness of our hearts.

Matthew 6:1-24 “Watch out! Don't do your good deeds publicly, to be admired by others, for you will lose the reward from your Father in heaven. When you give to someone in need, don't do as the hypocrites do—blowing trumpets in the synagogues and streets to call attention to their acts of charity!

So there are rewards for doing good deeds but it doesn't have anything to do with your salvation. We are eternally secure because of what Jesus did.

Jesus said that we will be judged by our works. John 5:29 talks about that Last Day judgment: "those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. You may not get "brownie points" for doing good works, but you DO GET REWARDS in heaven (and maybe even some here). If we do good works, not to be seen by men, but to glorify our Father, Jesus promises that we will be rewarded - Matthew 6:4, 6, 18.
I don't think the words "eternally secure" are anywhere in the Bible, so we have to understand that phrase from how men use it. It is used to mean "once saved, always saved", as I understand it. Once again, "once saved, always saved" is not a Biblical phrase. In fact, if "eternal security" or "once saved, always saved" were Biblical truths, you might actually find those phrases or something similar in the Bible - but we don't. Maybe a phrase like "you can't lose your salvation" should be there, or "you can't fall from grace". or "you can't fall away from the faith" or "you can't stray from the truth" or "you can't fall away from God" or "you can't be severed from Christ", but all of those are missing.

On the other hand "fallen from grace" is in the Bible - Galatians 5:4. "Straying from the truth" is in the Bible - James 5:19. "Severed from Christ" is in the Bible - Galatians 5:4. "Fall away from the faith" is in the Bible. 1 Timothy 4:1 and Hebrews 6:6 and Mark 4:17. "Falls away from the Living God" is in the Bible - Hebrews 4:12

Hmmm. Interesting. That ought to tell us something.

 

[Johann]

Taste and see that the Lord is good;
blessed is the one who takes refuge in him. Psalm 34:8

Once you've been given salvation, Been born again, Become a new creation why would you leave that? When you're blessed why would you go back to your misery?

But in answer to your question "What does eternal life mean to me"? It means that it's eternal. It's not here today and gone tomorrow. That's wishy-washy life. That wasn't what Jesus came to give us. He said I came to give you life and life more abundantly.

What does abundant mean to you? More than you'll ever need?

Teaching on Losing Salvation

Matt. 7:18 – Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 – all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 – Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 – Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 – Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 – we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”

John 6:70-71 – Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 – we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 – we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 – those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 – Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 – everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

John 6:44 – Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 – when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

Rev. 3:4 – in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

Rev. 3:11 – Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 – we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21:7 – we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Rev. 22:19 – we can have a share in the tree of life in God’s holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.