Eternal Justification !

[brightfame52]

Nothing there about God punishing the son, and you set the godhead at odds with each other

while scripture shows them working in union

2 Corinthians 5:18–20 (KJV 1900) — 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

nor was sin imputed to Christ as he remained ever holy

regarding such imputation, Adam Clarke notes

a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were imputed to him, and reckoned as his own1

1 Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 6, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 338–339.

and the Calvinist Barne's notes

Nor, (2.) Can it mean that he was a sinner, for it is said in immediate connection that he “knew no sin,” and it is everywhere said that he was holy, harmless, undefiled. Nor, (3.) Can it mean that he was, in any proper sense of the word, guilty, for no one is truly guilty who is not personally a transgressor of the law; and if he was, in any proper sense, guilty, then he deserved to die, and his death could have no more merit than that of any other guilty being; and if he was properly guilty it would make no difference in this respect whether it was by his own fault or by imputation: a guilty being deserves to be punished; and where there is desert of punishment there can be no merit in sufferings. But all such views as go to make the holy Redeemer a sinner, or guilty, or deserving of the sufferings which he endured, border on blasphemy, and are abhorrent to the whole strain of the Scriptures. In no form, in no sense possible, is it to be maintained that the Lord Jesus was sinful or guilty. It is a corner stone of the whole system of religion, that in all conceivable senses of the expression he was holy, and pure, and the object of the divine approbation. And every view which fairly leads to the statement that he was in any sense guilty, or which implies that he deserved to die, is prima facie a false view, and should be at once abandoned

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: II Corinthians & Galatians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 133.

When did God determine to punish Christ for the sins of the Elect and not to punish the elect for their sins ?

 

[TomL]

When did God determine to punish Christ for the sins of the Elect and not to punish the elect for their sins ?

He never determined to punish Christ

He determined Christ would be a sacrifice for sin

 

[brightfame52]

He never determined to punish Christ

He determined Christ would be a sacrifice for sin

When ?

 

[civic]

When did God determine to punish Christ for the sins of the Elect and not to punish the elect for their sins ?

God never punished Christ- that's a false doctrine made up by depraved men in the dark ages.

 

[brightfame52]

God never punished Christ- that's a false doctrine made up by depraved men in the dark ages.

When did God determine that Christ would die for sin ?

 

[TomL]

When ?

In eternity past

 

[brightfame52]

In eternity past

Okay, so at the same time He determined not to punish the elect for their sins.

 

[TomL]

Okay, so at the same time He determined not to punish the elect for their sins.

There were no unconditionally elect in eternity past

 

[civic]

When did God determine that Christ would die for sin ?

The Son is God.

You must not be a trinitarian. God is One in nature, purpose and perfectly united in all things. God is not against His own Being. God is a Tri-Unity not a dysfunctional Dis-Unity.

hope this helps !!!

 

[brightfame52]

There were no unconditionally elect in eternity past

Huh, when did God determined not to punish the elect for their sins ?

 

[TomL]

Huh, when did God determined not to punish the elect for their sins ?

What did you not understand?

There were no unconditionally elect in eternity past

 

[brightfame52]

What did you not understand?

There were no unconditionally elect in eternity past

, when did God determined not to punish the elect for their sins ?

 

[TomL]

, when did God determined not to punish the elect for their sins ?

What did you not understand?

There were no unconditionally elect in eternity past

 

[brightfame52]

What did you not understand?

There were no unconditionally elect in eternity past

when did God determined not to punish the elect for their sins ?

 

[Red Baker]

Acts 11:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

future tense so it has not happened yet

Tom, you have yet to address my comments on your posts to me. I have a doctor's appointment that will take up most of the rest of my day, but I might be able to find a little time, if so, I want to consider Acts 11:14.

You ask in one of your post above what was I, if not a Calvinist. As you should know, under the umbrella of Calvinism, there are several different degrees of Calvinism, much like Baptist, and other religious groups. I prefer to just address people's teachings instead of lumping them into a box known as .......etc., etc. Now, that being said such groups as Jehovah Witnesses, SDA, Mormonism, are very distinct cults with particular teachings which are not that hard to put them into a certain box.

Among the Calvinist there are several different beliefs as far as their eschatology goes~so that another reason why i do not put myself or others into the camp of Calvinism.

Arminianism is even worse to tag, since most all other folks are Arminians in their Soteriology, though may be premill in their eschatology, or they my not be. Very few Calvinist are premill, yet many of are of Pretersit camp, or are Historic in their eschatology~holding to 70 A.D. theory. Which I do not.

So, what I'm I~if a tag must be put on me, then I'm a high Calvinist in my understanding of Soteriology, and amill idealist in my eschatology. I do not teach a present burning hellfire since the scriptures do not, (a form of purgatory that the RCC teach) yet do teach a lake of fire where the wicked shall be cast into, which is the second death and there perish, per John 3:16 and many others scriptures. I believe in a future bodily resurrection for all.... both the righteous and the wicked on the last day!

Now, any of these points you would like to discuss then start thread and I will come, or, if there's one already in place, just guide me to thread and I'll discuss any doctrine with anyone. Thanks for your time~RB

 

[TomL]

Tom, you have yet to address my comments on your posts to me. I have a doctor's appointment that will take up most of the rest of my day, but I might be able to find a little time, if so, I want to consider Acts 11:14.

You ask in one of your post above what was I, if not a Calvinist. As you should know, under the umbrella of Calvinism, there are several different degrees of Calvinism, much like Baptist, and other religious groups. I prefer to just address people's teachings instead of lumping them into a box known as .......etc., etc. Now, that being said such groups as Jehovah Witnesses, SDA, Mormonism, are very distinct cults with particular teachings which are not that hard to put them into a certain box.

Among the Calvinist there are several different beliefs as far as their eschatology goes~so that another reason why i do not put myself or others into the camp of Calvinism.

Arminianism is even worse to tag, since most all other folks are Arminians in their Soteriology, though may be premill in their eschatology, or they my not be. Very few Calvinist are premill, yet many of are Pretersit camp, or Historic in their eschatology

So, what I'm I~if a tag must be put on me, then I'm a high Calvinist in my understanding of Soteriology, and amill idealist in my eschatology. I do not teach a present burning hellfire since the scriptures do not, (a form of purgatory that the RCC teach) yet do teach a lake of fire where the wicked shall be cast into, which is the second death and there perish, per John 3:16 and many others scriptures. I believe in a future bodily resurrection for all.... both the righteous and the wicked on the last day!

Now, any of these points you would like to discuss then start thread and I will come, or, if there's one already in place, just guide me to thread and I'll discuss any doctrine with anyone. Thanks for your time~RB

I would peg you as a hyper Calvinist

And I would deny you have successfully addressed any of these

Acts 11:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.(future tense)

You simply denied it

and I do not see you addressed this at all

Ephesians 2:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[TomL]

I would peg you as a hyper Calvinist

And I would deny you have successfully addressed any of these

Acts 11:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.(future tense)

You simply denied it

and I do not see you addressed this at all

Ephesians 2:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

correction

the first verse should have been

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

one must believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ

The fact justification is by faith

Rom 3:28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal 3:24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

and that refutes eternal justification, because no one has had faith eternally

 

[Red Baker]

I would peg you as a hyper Calvinist

I truly care less what what you peg me~besides, you have put me into a great company of believers. Also, I told you that I was what is commonly known as "high" Calvinist, or hyper. I do not hold to gospel means being used in regenerating God's children.

Tom, I'm not going back over and address any verses which I have already addressed, You, sir, have not address any, which does not surprise me. You sound like a broken record, no pun intended, but it is a fact. I can see that your understanding is very shadow based on your posts not only to me, but to others as well, but that's okay, if one is willing to learn, if not, then that's on them, and others can see if one knows his bible or not, at least those who are students of the word of God.

I'll will answer Acts 11 after I'm finished at the doctor's office.

 

[TomL]

I truly care less what what you peg me~besides, you have put me into a great company of believers. Also, I told you that I was what is commonly known as "high" Calvinist, or hyper. I do not hold to gospel means being used in regenerating God's children.

Tom, I'm not going back over and address any verses which I have already addressed, You, sir, have not address any, which does not surprise me. You sound like a broken record, no pun intended, but it is a fact. I can see that your understanding is very shadow based on your posts not only to me, but to others as well, but that's okay, if one is willing to learn, if not, then that's on them, and others can see if one knows his bible or not, at least those who are students of the word of God.

I'll will answer Acts 11 after I'm finished at the doctor's office.

Untill you address

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

one must believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ

The fact justification is by faith

Rom 3:28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 2:16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Gal 3:24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

and that refutes eternal justification, because no one has had faith eternally

and

Ephesians 2:1–3 (ESV) — 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Ephesians 2:11–12 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

the shallow thinker here is you, seeing as this issue has been extant since the beginning of our discussion and you still have not answered it

As for Act 11

Acts 11:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

shall be saved is future tense

so it had not yet happened

 

[Red Baker]

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

one must believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ

The fact justification is by faith

I have already right here:

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law"~Paul here answered his question from verse 14, where he confronted Peter for his hypocrisy. Peter was guilty of gross heresy and hypocrisy by implying Gentiles needed to keep the law. Paul, Peter, and the other believing Jews, with the greatest knowledge of and obligation to the Law of Moses, knew full well it could not justify even Jews at all before God.

Paul and Peter and the council of Jerusalem had laid hold of justification by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ, knowing there was no saving power in Moses’ Law at all.

The works of the law, can be summed up to include any work with a command that said: "This DO and live, sin an die."

"But by the faith of Jesus Christ"~What is “the faith of Jesus Christ”? For it is the means of our legal justification before God.

Because we trust our King James Bible 1611, we do not alter it to read “faith in Jesus Christ,” which modern translations do to reduce the Bible to their concept of faith and its role.

We understand “the faith of Jesus Christ” to be His singular obedience to God for us, for the rest of the New Testament teaches justification by His work for us (Romans 5:17-19).

Did Jesus Christ have faith in God, and did this faith play a major role in our justification? The Lord Jesus Christ was more faithful than Moses, who had great faith (Hebrews 3:1-6).

Jesus is not the object of justifying knowledge, making it our knowledge; but rather He is the subject of it, for our justification is by His perfect knowledge of God’s will (Isaiah 53:11).

What a travesty that some interject man’s faith and knowledge into our legal justification.

The knowledge Jesus Christ possessed was that faith and confidence in God that led Him all His life; which took Him through Gethsemane, His horrible trial, and His miserable crucifixion, until He finally committed His spirit to His Father at the moment of death. He had great in faith and trust in God, as enemies said (Psalms 16:8; Hebrews 2:13; Matthew 27:43). Justification is by the obedience of One, and He obeyed in life and death (Romans 5:15-19). Without faith, He could not have pleased God; but He did please (Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 23:23). Jesus definitely did trust in God (Hebrews 2:13; 3:1-2; 5:7-8; Matt 27:43; Luke 23:46). None can deny this truth.

"Even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified, by the faith of Christ"~I did answer this above, but not in great detail, so, here's a little more thoughts.

How does our faith of believing in Christ related to Jesus Christ’s faith in God His Father? Faith neither regenerates us vitally, justifies us legally, or elects us eternally. It is for us. Our faith is the first act of a regenerated heart to lay hold of eternal life by God’s grace. Just as it was with Paul in Acts nine~no different with us.

To faith we add good works of seven fruits to prove election (2nd Peter 1:5-15; James 2:14-26). Faith does nothing more than any other good work of the new man (Ist Timothy 6:17-19). Faith, and the works that follow true faith, are the evidence of eternal life to our hearts. Paul and Peter gave up all hope in the Law to believe Jesus Christ alone for justification.

Again:
The overall context of Galatians 2, and 3, will support our understanding of Galatians 2:16 and it why we refuse to listen to men who try to bring works (our faith is work of the law~Matthew 23:23) as a means of our legal justification. Consider:

Galatians 2:16~"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

If you, or any man change "faith of" to faith in, then you must admit that Paul uses unnecessary words, or, excessive jargon, yet we know that he said exactly what needed to be said to carefully teach free justification through the faith/obedience of Jesus Christ in opposition to the works of the law~and we as believers seek to be justified by Christ's faith and not by our works of the law~which an act of faith on our part would be just that~according to Matthew 23:23; 1st John 3:23, etc.

even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ

Words that are useless if, you change the words faith of Jesus Christ to faith in Jesus Christ! Let us read thsi the way that you are trying to get folks believe it should be read:

even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ

What's is your problem by saying I have not answered you? It is you sir, that will not and obviously cannot take what I have said to you and refute it, so you just keep saying answer Galatians 2:16, which scripture belongs in our camp not yours, not even close sir, if you do not try to corrupt it with false versions that are copyrighted for $$$$$$$$$~the KJV does not have a copy right attached to it.