Really? So Isaiah 53 means nothing to you? Christ was put to DEATH, is that not a punishment?
Eternal Justification !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Let me ask you some questions and you answer like I have so many times above.
I'll be short for now.
How did Noah find grace in the eyes of the Lord before Jesus' death on the cross?
Pray to tell me how Abraham was a friend of God, before Jesus died to paid for his sins legally?
Actually, all of the OT saints were regenerated and had faith before Jesus legally died for their sins?
Would this scripture play a part in your answer? Probably not.
Any thoughts?
I'll be short for now.
How did Noah find grace in the eyes of the Lord before Jesus' death on the cross?
Pray to tell me how Abraham was a friend of God, before Jesus died to paid for his sins legally?
Actually, all of the OT saints were regenerated and had faith before Jesus legally died for their sins?
Would this scripture play a part in your answer? Probably not.
Any thoughts?
The key words bolded not discussed by you
Galatians 2:16 — 16 but knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith of Christ and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
it was required they first believe in Christ that they might be justified by the faith of Christ
see as they did not eternally believe they could not have been eternally justified
again there is no change in the key words
even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith of Christ, so that we may be justified by faith of Christ
there is no "of" here there is eis translated by into or in
again
even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith of Christ
ther is no of there
no translation places an of there
it is believed in Christ Jesus
quite simply
You have not even acknowledged the words highlighted
believed in Christ Jesus
let alone addressed it
One must believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ. No matter how you understand faith of Christ whether it is an objective or subjective genitive you must believe in Christ
No it is sacrificial atonement not God punishing Christ
But did you not not reject the idea Christ was imputed with sin ?
Why are you now arguing he was punished?
Punished for what?
What was he guilty of seeing you had denied any imputation of sin or defilement of Christ?
What are you talking about? I have never denied that our sins were imputed to Christ, and his righteousness imputed to us, never. I firmly believe in 2nd Corinthians 5:21.
I'm off until tomorrow.
Ok I must have conflated you with another
my apologies
So lets deal with 2cor 5:21
Verse 21. For he hath made him to be sin for us] Τον μη γνοντα ἁμαρτιαν, ὑπερ ἡμων ἁμαρτιαν εποιησεν· He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent,) a sin-offering for us. The word ἁμαρτια occurs here twice: in the first place it means sin, i. e. transgression and guilt; and of Christ it is said, He knew no sin, i. e. was innocent; for not to know sin is the same as to be conscious of innocence; so, nil conscire sibi, to be conscious of nothing against one’s self, is the same as nulla pallescere culpa, to be unimpeachable.
In the second place, it signifies a sin-offering, or sacrifice for sin, and answers to the חטאה chattaah and חטאת chattath of the Hebrew text; which signifies both sin and sin-offering in a great variety of places in the Pentateuch. The Septuagint translate the Hebrew word by ἁμαρτια in ninety-four places in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers, where a sin-offering is meant; and where our version translates the word not sin, but an offering for sin. Had our translators attended to their own method of translating the word in other places where it means the same as here, they would not have given this false view of a passage which has been made the foundation of a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were imputed to him, and reckoned as his own1
1 Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 6, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 338–339.
Now if sin were imputed to Christ how could it be stated
Hebrews 9:14 (UASV) — 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
How could he be the without spot or blemish required sacrifice for sin being a blood stained defiled sacrifice
but are you then affirming Christ was a sinner?
That he bore the guilt of sin?
That he metaphorically became sin itself?
No problem.
I will, but first, le me go back and address one of the scripture you brought up.
The following scriptures will prove that though God's elect were by nature only, children of wrath, yet God love for them was from everlasting being chosen in Christ. Ephesians 1:4
Consider: I can do not better than quote Samuel Richardson 1647 one of the signee's of first London Baptist Confession of faith 1648 ~ the second one came out in 1689
I grant all the elect are so by nature, under a state of wrath and curse, and they had perished in it, had not Jesus Christ by His death redeemed them out of that state. And although they were so by nature, yet at the same time they were also sons of grace and love. By nature accursed, by grace in election sure to escape it, and blessed. By wrath, I understand is meant the curse of the Law, the punishment due to sin. By nature I understand the state of nature, viz.: the state and condition of man by reason of Adam's fall, for all men were considered in him, and by his fall he made them all sinners, Rom. 5:18. So, all the elect were considered in Christ, Who by His death, did free all the elect from this fall of sin and death; so as never since Christ's death, none of the elect were under that state of wrath or curse, nor indeed could possible be for these Reasons.
Because then "Christ redeemed them from under the Law," Gal. 4:4,5. "Thou hast redeemed us by thy blood," Rev. 5:9. "Christ was made under the Law," that we might betaken from under it. "We are the children of the free woman," Gal. 4:26,31. "We are delivered from the Law, wherein we were held:" Rom. 7:1, etc. "Now we know, that whatsoever the Law saith, it saith to them that are under the Law," Rom. 3:19. But we now are "not under the Law," therefore it has nothing to say to us, we "are under grace,"Rom. 6:14.2)
Because Christ, by His death, put an end to the Law, the Law was not to last any longer then till Christ came; "The Law was added till the seed should come," Gal. 3:19. "Christis the end of the Law:" Rom. 10:4. It was never in force against any of God's elect since Christ's death. "We are freed from the Law by the body of Christ," Rom. 7:4. Christ in"his flesh did abolish the Law of Commandments:" Eph. 2:15,16; Col. 2:13,14. "Now we are delivered from the Law," Rom. 7:6. "Against such there is no law:" Gal. 5:23. If the Son shall make you as free in your consciences, as the elect are free in Him, you shall see, and say you were free indeed, John 8.3)
Because the Law is dead to us, and we to it, "As a woman is freed from the law of her husband if he be dead:" so are we from the law. "Wherefore my brethren, we are become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that we should be married to another, even to him, that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter," Rom. 7:1-7. This new husband is better than the old. Welcome Christ, and farewell Law. Now we have nothing to do with the Law, nor the Law with us, "Our old man is crucified with him," Rom. 6:6. "He that is dead is freed from sin:" v.7. "We are dead with Christ," v.8.4)
Because there is none of Moses' law now in force, to the elect, with curses to be under, nolaw, no transgression, no curse, no penalty in force now. For when the Law ceased, the curse of the Law ceased also with it. The Law said "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them," Gal. 3:10, Deut.27:10,26.5)
Because "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us,that the blessing of Christ might come upon us," Gal. 3:13,14. Christ has underwent all the curses, that all His chosen might not suffer any at all of it. And seeing none could be redeemed from the curse without His death, Christ did die. There shall none be saved, but such as were then redeemed by His death, for He will die no more, Heb. 9:25,26.6)
Because that liberty which the Saints stand in and enjoy when they believe, was not procured by their conversion and faith, etc., but by Christ upon the Cross. "Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free," Gal. 5;1. This liberty believers no wenjoy, but it was purchased then by Christ's death. For then, we were perfected for ever,Heb. 10:14.
Yet until men be converted, they are visibly in a state of wrath and death.
We were never since in our sins, therefore the curse has no place, it has nothing to do with us, we have no sin, for "all our sins were laid upon Christ," as Isa. 53:6. "Christ was made sin for us," 2 Cor. 5:21, "and Curse for us," Gal. 3:13. He then "destroyed the power of death and the Devil for us," Heb. 2:14, or else we cannot be saved. Consider,Rom. 5:18 and 19, the head and the members, viz. Christ and all the Elect are but one,Heb. 2;11, they make but "one body, one Christ," 1 Cor. 12:12, therefore "we were crucified with Christ," Gal. 2:20, dead and "buried with Christ," Rom. 6 and "were quickened together with Christ," and "raised up together with Christ," Eph. 2:5,6, "we were without God afar off, and made nigh by the blood of Christ, the enmity was slain and reconciliation" was made "by the Cross," and by nothing else, Eph. 2:12-17. So that never since Christ's death, none of the Elect are under wrath or curse, for Christ has fulfilled the law for us.
Wait a minute the issue is not god's love for them but your claim of eternal justification
so where does this state men were eternally justified
and that last paragraph concerns believers and takes us only back to Christ death
Further the above writer clearly conflated the grounds upon which we are justified with the time and application of our justification
Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
it is when wee have believed in christ that we are justified by the faith of Christo
But more importantly
it's scriptural proof i am looking for not a Calvinist man's opinion
This is how men were described before believing
Ephesians 2:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 And you were dead in your offenses and sins, 2 in which you previously walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.
Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
One cannot be a child of wrath and justified at the same time
Nor can one be justified apart from Christ
Romans 4:1–25 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
When was Abraham justified according to text? was it not when he believed?>
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Who is counted as righteous?
Is it not he who believes.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
was was reckoned for Abraham's righteousness here?
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
What is of Faith?
Whose faith?
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: 20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
What was imputed for righteousness?
And what is the highlighted condition
I do not see that you have relieved your position of this difficulty at all
Tom, I very familiar with Adam Clarke's name more so than his writings, even though I have read his commentary on Hebrews one, and Luke one, which I find to be spot on~He rejected Jesus' eternal sonship and held to the incarnate sonship~his thoughts on that subject and his reasoning behind his thoughts were excellent.
That being said, I reject his position of not being content with the KJV that his forefathers gave them just little over an hundred years before him ~ should concern folks, it does me~even though, I know good men, God fearing men, it seems, do the same, yet, that's something they will have to give account to God for.
Just got a call~have a short meeting, I'll come back and address this verse. RB
Some take the title sonship a little too literally. I do not know if Adam Clarke is one, but it is somewhat irrelevant to the issue before us
So I will wait for your reply before going further.
Tom, you are not thinking using all of God's word.
It was you that brought up Ephesians 2:3, and at that time I clearly said God's elect were children of wrath, only by nature, which by nature, you cannot distinguish who are the elect and who are not, until one believe, repents and are baptized into Jesus Christ religion/faith, etc. and even then, there will be millions of others who are not known to be of the elect, yet are part of the chosen, such as: those who died in their infancy; who live and die never hearing the gospel, such as heathrens; and feeble minded folks who are unable to process information, etc. God has his elect among some of these, without question.
Well Tom, the issue is about God' love, since God's love is eternal, and even that is seen here in Ephesians chapter two.
You look at those scriptures and tell me is the issue of eternal justification based on God choosing his people and placing them IN Christ before the foundation of the world, or, in eternity past? There has never been an time, if there is such a thing in eternity past, which I do not think it was, but for the sake of proving a point, a time that God did not love his elect? Of course not, never! Paul said:
He love his elect even when they were dead in sins~I ask you this question: When were we quickened legally, not vitally, but legally? I will answer that for you, well, actually, Paul will.....
Tom, God's elect have never been considered outside of being in Christ....never! Eternally, we have been in Christ, loved in Christ, now seated together with Christ, in the heavenly places legally speaking.
So, when Christ was in the world, he was so not as a private person, but as the representative of God's elect~what he did, it was as though they did it, when he was put to death, so were they, when he arose, so did they, where he now seats, so do all of God's children legally speaking. As a twelve boy, he was subject perfectly unto his parents, I was not, yet IN CHRIST I was, etc.
Um you missed the point one is not justified until they believe
Galatians 2:16 (ESV) — 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
now regarding Eph i quoted
Ephesians 2:1–3 (ESV) — 1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Ephesians 2:11–12 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
it is not that they were only by nature children of wrath
A child of wrath is one who inherits wrath
but they were
at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
that is not a man who has been justified
Sorry no you are not eternally in christ as the passage shows
Ephesians 2:11–12 (ESV) — 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
see also
Ephesians 1:13 (ESV) — 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
one is not sealed in Christ until one believes
and that transpires in time
Romans 16:7 (ESV) — 7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.
as some were in Christ before others effectively refuting your claim
brightfame52
Well-known member
@Red Baker
Absolutely, and may I add that all the elect are even now, even if not yet converted and in unbelief, are in Christ seated together with Him in the heavenly places,
But the unconverted elect in unbelief will sooner or later be born from above, where they legally reside, however they will experience the Spiritual application of what's legally a reality.
Absolutely, and may I add that all the elect are even now, even if not yet converted and in unbelief, are in Christ seated together with Him in the heavenly places,
But the unconverted elect in unbelief will sooner or later be born from above, where they legally reside, however they will experience the Spiritual application of what's legally a reality.
Sorry that is clearly error
brightfame52
Well-known member
The Elect were in Christ when He was died, was buried and resurrected, for they are His Body which He is the Head. And He has been their Head from Everlasting
brightfame52
Well-known member
You just dont understand. cant help you
Your heresies are not helpful
https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/eternal-justification.1159/post-57054
brightfame52
Well-known member
May God be pleased to have mercy on you my friend
You also
May he also open your eyes to his desire to have mercy on all
Romans 11:32 (NASB 2020) — 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.
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