Eternal Justification !

[TomL]

Aint no rebuttal, you just quoting a bunch scripture.

sorry you have failed to explain how these can be true of a justified man

Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

and

Ephesians 2:3 (ESV) — 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

 

[brightfame52]

sorry you have failed to explain how these can be true of a justified man

Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

and

Ephesians 2:3 (ESV) — 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Aint no rebuttal, you just quoting scripture and expect me to explain them. Not going to happen

 

[TomL]

Aint no rebuttal, you just quoting scripture and expect me to explain them. Not going to happen

You remain in denial

You cannot explain how these could be true of a justified man

Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

and

Ephesians 2:3 (ESV) — 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

 

[brightfame52]

You remain in denial

You cannot explain how these could be true of a justified man

Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

and

Ephesians 2:3 (ESV) — 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Aint no rebuttal, just a bunch of scripture hopping and hoping for the best.

 

[TomL]

Aint no rebuttal, just a bunch of scripture hopping and hoping for the best.

Just more bald denial and a failure to address rebuttal

You cannot explain how these could be true of a justified man

Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Is a justified man without hope?

Can one who is without Christ be justified?

and

Ephesians 2:3 (ESV) — 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

is a justified man a child of wrath?

 

[brightfame52]

Just more bald denial and a failure to address rebuttal

You cannot explain how these could be true of a justified man

Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Is a justified man without hope?

Can one who is without Christ be justified?

and

Ephesians 2:3 (ESV) — 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

is a justified man a child of wrath?

Aint no rebuttal, just a bunch of scripture hopping and hoping for the best.

 

[TomL]

Aint no rebuttal, just a bunch of scripture hopping and hoping for the best.

bald Denial

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/eternal-justification.1159/post-56122

Seems you are inflected with that spirit

 

[brightfame52]

bald Denial

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/eternal-justification.1159/post-56122

Seems you are inflected with that spirit

You dont have no rebuttal, just a bunch of scripture you need explaining, Im not the one

 

[Red Baker]

Nope

Tom, I expected you to disagree based on what I glanced over before posting.

Free justification by grace alone, is probably my favorite subject, and have studied this for fifty years and debated the same with men from many different sects, from EOC, RCC, Church of Christ, Pentecostals, Baptist, etc. Looking forward discussing this with you in amicable manner.

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

one justified by the faith of Jesus Christ by believing in Jesus Christ

Sir, actually both are scripturally true but in different senses.

Legally, we are only justified by the faith, obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ, period~and still maintain a gospel of free grace, without the works of the law.

Romans 4:25~"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Practically, we come to understand our free justification secured by Christ....... by faith in the word of God, for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Thereby, once we have been born of the Spirit of God, or quicken to life, spiritually resurrected, from that point forward we seek only to be found in Christ not having our own righteousness that comes by the law, but the righteousness of Jesus Christ, that comes by his faith and obedience alone ~ is given freely to us, that we received by the hearing of faith. This justification takes place only in our conscience, or heart, that produces peace, joy and true security.

Romans 5:1~"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"

one justified by the faith of Jesus Christ by believing in Jesus Christ

I firmly believe this to be so, but in a different sense than you are attempting to say. The emphasis on the faith of Christ for our legal justification, and us trusting in Christ, brings a knowledge of this blessed truth to our hearts, which in turns, produces joy, peace, and great comfort, when biblically understood.

Christ is the object not the subject of faith

Christ is indeed the object of our faith, but in Galatians 2:1-5:4 the subject under consideration is free justification by grace, and through the faith of Christ verses another gospel based on the works of the law that can be summed up by this: "This DO and live, sin and die"

Faith in Christ. This expression is a good example of the relationship between grammar and theology in the proper exegesis of a New Testament text. Paul said that we are not justified by works of the law but rather dia pisteōs Iēsou Christou, which the NIV translates “by faith in Jesus Christ.” This translation assumes the traditional view that Iēsou Christou is an objective genitive, so that the faith in question is that of those who believe in Jesus Christ.

I have a meetings I'll come back later today....RB

 

[TomL]

Tom, I expected you to disagree based on what I glanced over before posting.

Free justification by grace alone, is probably my favorite subject, and have studied this for fifty years and debated the same with men from many different sects, from EOC, RCC, Church of Christ, Pentecostals, Baptist, etc. Looking forward discussing this with you in amicable manner.


Sir, actually both are scripturally true but in different senses.

Legally, we are only justified by the faith, obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ, period~and still maintain a gospel of free grace, without the works of the law.


Practically, we come to understand our free justification secured by Christ....... by faith in the word of God, for faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Thereby, once we have been born of the Spirit of God, or quicken to life, spiritually resurrected, from that point forward we seek only to be found in Christ not having our own righteousness that comes by the law, but the righteousness of Jesus Christ, that comes by his faith and obedience alone ~ is given freely to us, that we received by the hearing of faith. This justification takes place only in our conscience, or heart, that produces peace, joy and true security.


I firmly believe this to be so, but in a different sense than you are attempting to say. The emphasis on the faith of Christ for our legal justification, and us trusting in Christ, brings a knowledge of this blessed truth to our hearts, which in turns, produces joy, peace, and great comfort, when biblically understood.


Christ is indeed the object of our faith, but in Galatians 2:1-5:4 the subject under consideration is free justification by grace, and through the faith of Christ verses another gospel based on the works of the law that can be summed up by this: "This DO and live, sin and die"


I have a meetings I'll come back later today....RB

Your argument is internally contradictory. if one must believe to be justified one is not justified automatically by the faithfulness of Christ

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You will note one must first believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ

The faithfulness of Christ alone does not justify

You fail to differentiate between the primary, mediate cause and the instrumental cause of justification

Our faith is the instrumental cause

The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith John calvin

as the Calvinist also Shedd notes

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]

---

[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.


you also have the difficulty that until one believes and is converted one is

Ephesians 2:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

a child of wrath

and

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

that is not the description of a justified man

Further you have applied justification without a union with Christ

Ephesians 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

but one is not in Christ until they believe

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eternal justification is a great error which denies justification by faith

 

[Red Baker]

Faith in Christ. This expression is a good example of the relationship between grammar and theology in the proper exegesis of a New Testament text. Paul said that we are not justified by works of the law but rather dia pisteōs Iēsou Christou, which the NIV translates “by faith in Jesus Christ.” This translation assumes the traditional view that Iēsou Christou is an objective genitive, so that the faith in question is that of those who believe in Jesus Christ

Greetings again Tom~ I heard just about every argument on Galatians 2:16, more so here, than from Romans 3:22, which scripture said almost the same words, but a little differently, but teaching the exact truth, in both places.

Tom, I will never used the Greek to defend a bible truth that is clearly taught in one of the oldest translations of the word of God in our own tongue. The KJV, I'm convinced is the word of God for the english speaking people of this world~but, I will say no more on this point for now, but I want to stay with the subject under consideration~eternal justification by the grace of God through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ's faith and obedience to the law of God ~ acting as a representative for his people........ members of his elect body~he being the head thereof.

Tom, I can take Galatians 2:16 and read it without some man telling me that it does not say what I know it does indeed say. I take Galatians 2:16 to be the gospel in a nutshell, not John 3:16, not even close. If you listen to men, and not to the context of the subject under consideration then that person deserves to be deceive. Context is king, not the Greek language.

First~Interpretations must agree with their context. We must remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext. We must not violate it; we must learn to spot it.

A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret.

Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s meaning by the text.

Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information.

A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.

Using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true. Hate this abuse of words!

We have had our words used out of context before, and we hated the corruption of our intent and meaning. We must make sure we never do it with the precious Word of God.

This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.

Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why we asked our teacher to use them in a sentence before we would try to spell them in a spelling bee!

The overall context of Galatians 2, and 3, will support our understanding of Galatians 2:16 and it why we refuse to listen to men who try to bring works (our faith is work of the law~Matthew 23:23) as a means of our legal justification. Consider:

Galatians 2:16~"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

If you, or any man change "faith of" to faith in, then you must admit that Paul uses unnecessary words, or, excessive jargon, yet we know that he said exactly what needed to be said to carefully teach free justification through the faith/obedience of Jesus Christ in opposition to the works of the law~and we as believers seek to be justified by Christ's faith and not by our works of the law~which an act of faith on our part would be just that~according to Matthew 23:23; 1st John 3:23, etc.

even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ

Words that are useless if, you change the words faith of Jesus Christ to faith in Jesus Christ! Let us read thsi the way that you are trying to get folks believe it should be read:

even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith in Christ

Absolutely makes no sense the way you are attempting to say it should be read. Besides, and more importantly, you are making the faith of man (which is impossible~Romans 8:7,8) the saviour, and not the faith/obedience of Jesus Christ, the means of our legal justification~that's sir is another gospel. That falls under the curse of God according to Galatians one.

Later....RB

 

[TomL]

Greetings again Tom~ I heard just about every argument on Galatians 2:16, more so here, than from Romans 3:22, which scripture said almost the same words, but a little differently, but teaching the exact truth, in both places.

Tom, I will never used the Greek to defend a bible truth that is clearly taught in one of the oldest translations of the word of God in our own tongue. The KJV, I'm convinced is the word of God for the english speaking people of this world~but, I will say no more on this point for now, but I want to stay with the subject under consideration~eternal justification by the grace of God through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ's faith and obedience to the law of God ~ acting as a representative for his people........ members of his elect body~he being the head thereof.

Tom, I can take Galatians 2:16 and read it without some man telling me that it does not say what I know it does indeed say. I take Galatians 2:16 to be the gospel in a nutshell, not John 3:16, not even close. If you listen to men, and not to the context of the subject under consideration then that person deserves to be deceive. Context is king, not the Greek language.

First~Interpretations must agree with their context. We must remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext. We must not violate it; we must learn to spot it.

A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret.

Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s meaning by the text.

Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information.

A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.

Using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true. Hate this abuse of words!

We have had our words used out of context before, and we hated the corruption of our intent and meaning. We must make sure we never do it with the precious Word of God.

This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.

Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why we asked our teacher to use them in a sentence before we would try to spell them in a spelling bee!

The overall context of Galatians 2, and 3, will support our understanding of Galatians 2:16 and it why we refuse to listen to men who try to bring works (our faith is work of the law~Matthew 23:23) as a means of our legal justification. Consider:

If you, or any man change "faith of" to faith in, then you must admit that Paul uses unnecessary words, or, excessive jargon, yet we know that he said exactly what needed to be said to carefully teach free justification through the faith/obedience of Jesus Christ in opposition to the works of the law~and we as believers seek to be justified by Christ's faith and not by our works of the law~which an act of faith on our part would be just that~according to Matthew 23:23; 1st John 3:23, etc.

Words that are useless if, you change the words faith of Jesus Christ to faith in Jesus Christ! Let us read thsi the way that you are trying to get folks believe it should be read:

Absolutely makes no sense the way you are attempting to say it should be read. Besides, and more importantly, you are making the faith of man (which is impossible~Romans 8:7,8) the saviour, and not the faith/obedience of Jesus Christ, the means of our legal justification~that's sir is another gospel. That falls under the curse of God according to Galatians one.

Later....RB

You posted a lot of words but you never addressed the point

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed ****in*** Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

They believed in (eis - into) Christ that they might be justified by the faith of Christ


Sorry Romans 8:7,8 does not say faith is impossible.

Romans 8:7–8 (KJV 1900) — 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

and you need to deal with all these

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

 

[Red Baker]

You posted a lot of words but you never addressed the point

Tom, I was not finished with the post, had a meetings with my tax man, and still will be tied up until after three or so, EST.

I will address each section~likewise, I desire the same back from you addressing my points as well. Thank you for your time, time is precious ,I know all too well.

 

[TomL]

Tom, I was not finished with the post, had a meetings with my tax man, and still will be tied up until after three or so, EST.

I will address each section~likewise, I desire the same back from you addressing my points as well. Thank you for your time, time is precious ,I know all too well.

I will wait for you to address the points raised

 

[Red Baker]

Your argument is internally contradictory. if one must believe to be justified one is not justified automatically by the faithfulness of Christ

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Greetings Tom~Let me at least get finish with this first post to me from you. Thank you again for your consideration of my understanding which I believe to be the truth, or, I would not be here defending free justification without works on man's part, which justification was totally secured by Jesus Christ's faith and obedience for his people.

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law"~Paul here answered his question from verse 14, where he confronted Peter for his hypocrisy. Peter was guilty of gross heresy and hypocrisy by implying Gentiles needed to keep the law. Paul, Peter, and the other believing Jews, with the greatest knowledge of and obligation to the Law of Moses, knew full well it could not justify even Jews at all before God.

Paul and Peter and the council of Jerusalem had laid hold of justification by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ, knowing there was no saving power in Moses’ Law at all.

The works of the law, can be summed up to include any work with a command that said: "This DO and live, sin an die."

"But by the faith of Jesus Christ"~What is “the faith of Jesus Christ”? For it is the means of our legal justification before God.

Because we trust our King James Bible 1611, we do not alter it to read “faith in Jesus Christ,” which modern translations do to reduce the Bible to their concept of faith and its role.

We understand “the faith of Jesus Christ” to be His singular obedience to God for us, for the rest of the New Testament teaches justification by His work for us (Romans 5:17-19).

Did Jesus Christ have faith in God, and did this faith play a major role in our justification? The Lord Jesus Christ was more faithful than Moses, who had great faith (Hebrews 3:1-6).

Jesus is not the object of justifying knowledge, making it our knowledge; but rather He is the subject of it, for our justification is by His perfect knowledge of God’s will (Isaiah 53:11).

What a travesty that some interject man’s faith and knowledge into our legal justification.

The knowledge Jesus Christ possessed was that faith and confidence in God that led Him all His life; which took Him through Gethsemane, His horrible trial, and His miserable crucifixion, until He finally committed His spirit to His Father at the moment of death. He had great in faith and trust in God, as enemies said (Psalms 16:8; Hebrews 2:13; Matthew 27:43). Justification is by the obedience of One, and He obeyed in life and death (Romans 5:15-19). Without faith, He could not have pleased God; but He did please (Hebrews 11:6; Matthew 23:23). Jesus definitely did trust in God (Hebrews 2:13; 3:1-2; 5:7-8; Matt 27:43; Luke 23:46). None can deny this truth.

"Even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified, by the faith of Christ"~I did answer this above, but not in great detail, so, here's a little more thoughts.

How does our faith of believing in Christ related to Jesus Christ’s faith in God His Father? Faith neither regenerates us vitally, justifies us legally, or elects us eternally. It is for us. Our faith is the first act of a regenerated heart to lay hold of eternal life by God’s grace. Just as it was with Paul in Acts nine~no different with us.

To faith we add good works of seven fruits to prove election (2nd Peter 1:5-15; James 2:14-26). Faith does nothing more than any other good work of the new man (Ist Timothy 6:17-19). Faith, and the works that follow true faith, are the evidence of eternal life to our hearts. Paul and Peter gave up all hope in the Law to believe Jesus Christ alone for justification.

Need another post or two to finish with your first post to me.

 

[Red Baker]

You will note one must first believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ

Tom, it does not say that, that is your take on what you are reading. Sir, your statement goes against the word of God and the very gospel that you profess to believe. Your understanding is frustrating the grace of God, and by saying what you are saying, tells me that you have fallen from grace, that is~from the doctrine of true grace wherein those who know the truth stand.

1st Peter 5:12~"By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand."

It took Paul's rebuke of Peter, to cause him to stand firmly upon the true grace of God. Tom, you are not standing upon the true grace of God, you are laboring to interject man's works into the doctrine of free grace based upon Jesus' faith and obedience alone for our legal justification before God's law.

Tom, in order for me to prove my point, with your statement above, allow me to take another quote from your post.

as the Calvinist also Shedd notes

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16).

Tom, I'm not a Calvinist for this very reason, even though I do hold to some of the same truths they hold to, yet they err on justification by faith. Mr. Shedd, probably a good man and sincere, that we would never question, just as we would not you, yet he's in error on thsi truth by using Mark 16:16 (which I will not address here, but would in a separate post if asked to) and EPhesians 2:8 which I will address.

Ephesians 2:8~"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

We are saved by grace~as far as the means of our salvation from sin and condemnation. The medium through which God saved his elect is by faith~that is CHRIST'S FAITH~ (and we know this by what follows) and that (faith) is not of yourselves! The Holy Ghost clearly said: it is the gift of God. Faith is not of ourselves Tom, God through his son secured the gift of faith for us. In due time God's Spirit quickens us to life, by creating a new man within after the image of his son, and through the new man within us we have POWER to believe, but not until then.

Philippians 1:2829~"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"

Our Calvinist friends are wrong on the doctrine of justification by faith, but not all of them, but many of do. Here's two that fully understood this truth. https://www.libcfl.com/articles/brine.htm written around four hundred years ago. https://www.mercyuponall.org/pdfs-c...ichardson-justification-by-christ-alone-1647/ the best articles ever written on thsi subject hands down.

you also have the difficulty that until one believes and is converted one is

Ephesians 2:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

a child of wrath

and

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

that is not the description of a justified man

No problem sir, none whatsoever.

Tom, "only by nature", were we children of wrath~God's children are no different than the children of God's wrath by their birth "only", yet, by election of grace, there is a difference. Romans 9:11-14 Your argument is no argument against free justification by grace alone.

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

that is not the description of a justified man

Further you have applied justification without a union with Christ

Ephesians 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

but one is not in Christ until they believe

Tom, this is true only in a practical sense~eternally we were chosen "in" Christ, grace and mercy was given to us in eternity past, yet practically speaking our justification is not known until we believe and then we are known to be in Christ from that point forward.

Ephesians 1:4~"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

2nd Timothy 1:9~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

 

[TomL]

Tom, it does not say that, that is your take on what you are reading. Sir, your statement goes against the word of God and the very gospel that you profess to believe. Your understanding is frustrating the grace of God, and by saying what you are saying, tells me that you have fallen from grace, that is~from the doctrine of true grace wherein those who know the truth stand.

You better read again

Galatians 2:15–16 (ESV) — 15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Eis into

they believed into Christ so that they may be justified by the faith of Christ

deal with that before going any further

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry Romans 8:7,8 does not say faith is impossible.

Romans 8:7–8 (KJV 1900) — 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Tom, truly why would any man even attempt to say that Paul's words here does not mean what they clearly state, unless he has a biased agenda to protect.

Romans 8:7,8~"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

A man not born again, is not only an enemy of God, but much worse~he's at enmity against God! Do you truly understand what this means? Men in the flesh, or, not yet in the Spirit, that is, not born again are at war against God. This enmity spirit must be set free, before that person can be subject to the word of God, or even have a desire to be willing to be subject. The new birth set a man at liberty to serve God, and to be no longer a servant to sin and the devil. SIn will still live in his old man, yet he can have victory over the flesh, the world and the devil.

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?

Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven


Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”

Tom, God does this by not showing mercy to them~for if he showed mercy, to them, then the power to believe would be there! This is much like God hardened Pharaoh's heart~God did not work in Pharaoh's heart to harden him, he just left Pharaoh to himself, to the deceitfulness and blindness of his heart that every man has by nature.

unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

First of all, you must prove that all four of the hearer were lost~I believe otherwise ~ that all four were children of God, and each one of them shows the results of God's children, hearing the word preach and why some are fruitful and some are not, you will find each one of these among God's children and if the truth is known and folks are honest, they would say that they have been all four of these hearers at one time during their walk as God's children ~ I know that I have and the danger is still there even at my age of soon to be 76.

I'll finish later...Thanks for your time and consideration...RB

 

[Red Baker]

You better read again

Galatians 2:15–16 (ESV) — 15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Eis into

they believed into Christ so that they may be justified by the faith of Christ

deal with that before going any further

Tom, you are showing the weakness of your position by finding a translation to agree with your understanding, yet you added these words that were "not" use in the translation which you chose~"they believed into Christ so that they may be justified by the faith of Christ

 

[Red Baker]

What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

Tom, In all honesty, I'm not so sure why you are attempting to use these scriptures to refute the sense in which eternal justification cannot be a biblical teaching.

The truth is this: if any man believes the testimony of the word of God, then to that person the power of faith to believe was freely given by God on the behalf of Jesus Christ who was the surety of God's elect.

John 1:10-13~"He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

The world knew him not~The world meaning Jews and Gentiles.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not~His own Jewish people received him not, as a nation.

"BUT"....is used to introduce a statement that adds something to a previous statement and usually contrasts with it in some way

"But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." Those that did receive him by believing on him that power was given to them to do so. Verse 13 is a commentary by the Holy Ghost explaining what is being said in verse 12:

John 1:13~"Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Those that did believe and received Jesus as the Son of God, were born not of blood, or, just because they were Abraham's children through the flesh; nor by the will of man, or because of a preacher preaching the truth like John the Baptist; nor of the will of the hearers of the word of God, since man's will is in bondage to sin and its lust, being the servant of devil himself. But those that heard and believe were did so because they were born of God first, that enable them to believe. This is the free gift given by God to his elect. The same truth that Jesus taught his disciple here:

Matthew 16:13-17~"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Btw Tom, God is building his church "upon the same rock" which made Peter and others part of the church of the first born, whose names are written in heaven. That rock is the divine revelation made known to Peter and all others who have the same confession as Peter gave...thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. No man can make that confession in all sincerity and live by that confession without a divine revelation given to that person from heaven. This is not my personal belief, but Jesus' teaching, and being so, it would not be wise to try to gainsay it.

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

Tom, believing others testimonies, preaching is the fruit of a person already born of God, but, it is not the means of one's new birth. Faith does come by hearing and hearing by the word of God, by our faith is not the means of being born of God ~ besides, our faith at best in our most holy moments has sin mixed with our faith, and by this truth, one should know that God does not accept one faith as the means of him being born of God. God's Spirit regenerates us based upon what Jesus did for us. It cannot be both ways, impossible, and still be of pure grace, without the works of the law. All that we possess spiritually, was given to us on the behalf of Jesus Christ.

One more thought before leaving~the gospel does not bring life, at best, it only bring to light where there is life. Need proof?

2nd Timothy 1:9,10~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"

The gospel is both the savour of death unto death; and to others the savour of life unto life. When the gospel is preached it will manifest both life and death, by folks reaction to what they are hearing. But, be assured of this truth, it will manifest one or the other.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

Of course it is, what other way has God chosen to convey his truths to us? None. But be assured of this truth Tom~the same power that resurrected Jesus from the dead, must resurrect a sinner to life before they have the power to ear, see, and believe! Proof?

Ephesians 1:18-20~"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,"

Tom, do you think that it took the mighty power of God to bring Jesus to life again from the dead? Of course it did, but it also took the same power to resurrect dead sinners to spiritual life~no difference whatsoever, my friend, none! Once resurrected, then from that point forward they have the power to hear, see and believe, but not until then, impossible, or else it would not take God's mighty power to resurrect sinners from being dead in trepasses and sin....but it does, and to believe otherwise, is to believe a lie.

I think you need to revisit John 3:1-8 and seek for true understanding of those scriptures. Jesus plainly told Nicodemus except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God...but Nicodemus did see, just not with very much understanding, much like many brethren today~ actually, in every generation there are Nicodemus' who believe, and fear God, but with no spiritual understanding of truths~even concerning the new birth and how it takes place. Selah.