Eternal Justification !

[TomL]

Tom, In all honesty, I'm not so sure why you are attempting to use these scriptures to refute the sense in which eternal justification cannot be a biblical teaching.

did you forget what you posted

Absolutely makes no sense the way you are attempting to say it should be read. Besides, and more importantly, you are making the faith of man (which is impossible~Romans 8:7,8) the saviour, and not the faith/obedience of Jesus Christ, the means of our legal justification~that's sir is another gospel. That falls under the curse of God according to Galatians one.

Your idea faith is impossible was contradicted by

Sorry Romans 8:7,8 does not say faith is impossible.

Romans 8:7–8 (KJV 1900) — 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

and you need to deal with all these

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven



Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”




unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.



What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?


John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

The truth is this: if any man believes the testimony of the word of God, then to that person the power of faith to believe was freely given by God on the behalf of Jesus Christ who was the surety of God's elect.

That does not address the verses above and simply extols your theology. God made man with a capability for faith

The verses above show it

The world knew him not~The world meaning Jews and Gentiles.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not~His own Jewish people received him not, as a nation.

"BUT"....is used to introduce a statement that adds something to a previous statement and usually contrasts with it in some way

"But as many as received him, to them gave he the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." Those that did receive him by believing on him that power was given to them to do so. Verse 13 is a commentary by the Holy Ghost explaining what is being said in verse 12:

so we some did receive him. No mention of any gift of infused faith or effectually caused faith

Those that did believe and received Jesus as the Son of God, were born not of blood, or, just because they were Abraham's children through the flesh; nor by the will of man, or because of a preacher preaching the truth like John the Baptist; nor of the will of the hearers of the word of God, since man's will is in bondage to sin and its lust, being the servant of devil himself. But those that heard and believe were did so because they were born of God first, that enable them to believe. This is the free gift given by God to his elect. The same truth that Jesus taught his disciple here:

Yes, God regenerated them . They were not regenerated by blood or of their own will etc but having received Christ rthey were given the right to be children of God - that is right to be born from above by God

Still waiting for you to address

Ephesians 2:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

 

[Red Baker]

Ephesians 2:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Tom, much in this post I have already address in posts: #155,156, 158, 159 which you have made no attempt to address. Though I'm not in a rush for you to do so, take your time and give it your best effort, because I want to see what you think you have ~ so far, you have not proven any of your points, actually they are very weak attempts to prove your system of works.

There's no problem on my part with any scriptures you come up with to not address them, for I certainly will do so.

I'll go back over this last post to see if there are new scriptures you want me to comment on, if so, I will.

 

[TomL]

Tom, much in this post I have already address in posts: #155,156, 158, 159 which you have made no attempt to address. Though I'm not in a rush for you to do so, take your time and give it your best effort, because I want to see what you think you have ~ so far, you have not proven any of your points, actually they are very weak attempts to prove your system of works.

There's no problem on my part with any scriptures you come up with to not address them, for I certainly will do so.

I'll go back over this last post to see if there are new scriptures you want me to comment on, if so, I will.

I have not seen you address these anywhere

Ephesians 2:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest.

Ephesians 2:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision” which is performed in the flesh by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the people of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

To address them you have to deal with what the verses state not present your theology or appeal to some other verse or belief

and in post 156

in response to

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

you denied the text states we must believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ contrary to what is plainly stated in the text

 

[TomL]

Tom, you are showing the weakness of your position by finding a translation to agree with your understanding, yet you added these words that were "not" use in the translation which you chose~"they believed into Christ so that they may be justified by the faith of Christ

Sorry they all say the same thing

Galatians 2:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 2:15–16 (ESV) — 15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:16 (LSB) — 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 2:16 (NIV) — 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:16 (UASV) — 16 but knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law, since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 2:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.


to be justified by the faith of Christ you must first put your faith in Christ

 

[Red Baker]

Your idea faith is impossible was contradicted by

Sorry Romans 8:7,8 does not say faith is impossible.

Romans 8:7–8 (KJV 1900) — 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

If you think that Romans 8:7,8 contradicts the impossibility of saving faith on man's part, then sir, you have a serious reading comprehension spiritually speaking.

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God"~The carnal mind in its wisest thoughts is rooted enmity against God. This is the reason why the carnal mind is punished with death. The mind of the flesh, or of man in his unregenerate state, walking according to the flesh, in its best as well as in its worst character ~ however moral in conduct ~ whether seeking acceptance with God by its own services, or following altogether the course of this world in its sinful practices — is not merely an enemy, but enmity itself against God in the understanding, will, and affections. And you think it is capable of having saving faith in a regenerate sense? Impossible.

"for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be"~The carnal mind is not under subjection to the law of God. Whatever it may do to obtain salvation or avoid wrath, it does it not from subjection to the law. It has a rooted aversion to the spiritual law of God, and admits not its claim to perfect and unceasing obedience. All its performances in the way of religion spring from selfish motives, and a hope that, on account of these doings, it will be accepted; whereas the holy law of God utterly rejects all such service. So far from giving the law all its demands, the carnal mind gives it nothing. The reason bering it cannot! Nothing which it does constitutes obedience to the law. The law does not in any degree, or in any instance, recognize the works of the carnal mind as obedience to its requirements. Neither indeed can be~Not only is it a matter of fact that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, but such subjection is impossible. Why do you not see this truth? Has God harden your heart to these truths? This is something you must address before God.

You need to read my posts to you and you will see the other points were covered. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

 

[TomL]

Tom, truly why would any man even attempt to say that Paul's words here does not mean what they clearly state, unless he has a biased agenda to protect.

Um these were the words of Paul

Sorry Romans 8:7,8 does not say faith is impossible.

Romans 8:7–8 (KJV 1900) — 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

it says nothing about being incapable of belief so do you have a biased agenda

A man not born again, is not only an enemy of God, but much worse~he's at enmity against God! Do you truly understand what this means? Men in the flesh, or, not yet in the Spirit, that is, not born again are at war against God. This enmity spirit must be set free, before that person can be subject to the word of God, or even have a desire to be willing to be subject. The new birth set a man at liberty to serve God, and to be no longer a servant to sin and the devil. SIn will still live in his old man, yet he can have victory over the flesh, the world and the devil.

People can have an enmity against another and still be reconciled

that is what the cross is about

2 Corinthians 5:18–20 (NASB 2020) — 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Tom, God does this by not showing mercy to them~for if he showed mercy, to them, then the power to believe would be there! This is much like God hardened Pharaoh's heart~God did not work in Pharaoh's heart to harden him, he just left Pharaoh to himself, to the deceitfulness and blindness of his heart that every man has by nature.

Um this is what was stated

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?

Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

I do not see where you can get the idea god had not actively took steps to prevent their belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven

Does your theology not teach they were born that way


Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”

You addressed nothing here

First of all, you must prove that all four of the hearer were lost~I believe otherwise ~ that all four were children of God, and each one of them shows the results of God's children, hearing the word preach and why some are fruitful and some are not, you will find each one of these among God's children and if the truth is known and folks are honest, they would say that they have been all four of these hearers at one time during their walk as God's children ~ I know that I have and the danger is still there even at my age of soon to be 76.

I'll finish later...Thanks for your time and consideration...RB

That was done

Acts 11:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

future tense so it has not happened yet

 

[TomL]

If you think that Romans 8:7,8 contradicts the impossibility of saving faith on man's part, then sir, you have a serious reading comprehension spiritually speaking.

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God"~The carnal mind in its wisest thoughts is rooted enmity against God. This is the reason why the carnal mind is punished with death. The mind of the flesh, or of man in his unregenerate state, walking according to the flesh, in its best as well as in its worst character ~ however moral in conduct ~ whether seeking acceptance with God by its own services, or following altogether the course of this world in its sinful practices — is not merely an enemy, but enmity itself against God in the understanding, will, and affections. And you think it is capable of having saving faith in a regenerate sense? Impossible.

"for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be"~The carnal mind is not under subjection to the law of God. Whatever it may do to obtain salvation or avoid wrath, it does it not from subjection to the law. It has a rooted aversion to the spiritual law of God, and admits not its claim to perfect and unceasing obedience. All its performances in the way of religion spring from selfish motives, and a hope that, on account of these doings, it will be accepted; whereas the holy law of God utterly rejects all such service. So far from giving the law all its demands, the carnal mind gives it nothing. The reason bering it cannot! Nothing which it does constitutes obedience to the law. The law does not in any degree, or in any instance, recognize the works of the carnal mind as obedience to its requirements. Neither indeed can be~Not only is it a matter of fact that the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, but such subjection is impossible. Why do you not see this truth? Has God harden your heart to these truths? This is something you must address before God.

You need to read my posts to you and you will see the other points were covered. I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

sorry nothing there states man cannot be reconciled to God

you assume a position of enmity cannot be changed apart from some irresistible work of God

that however is not how reconciliation is presented in the word of God

2 Corinthians 5:18–20 (KJV 1900) — 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Sorry I stated and still hold you did not address a number of verses

among others are

Ephesians 2:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Acts 11:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.(future tense)

Given that perhaps you should refrain from talking about reading comprehension problems

in addition you failed to address a number of verses showing man capable of believing

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry they all say the same thing

I said what I said based upon what you posted~I see that all the versions here you are using said the same thing, which they are all wrong! I say this based on what the true gospel of Jesus Christ proclaims ~free justification through the faith and obedience of ONE, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:17-19~"For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Romans 3:21,22~"But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

to be justified by the faith of Christ you must first put your faith in Christ

That Tom, is another gospel based upon WORKS. Our faith is a work on our part, and at best is mixed with sins, thereby, it cannot be the means of our legal justification, impossible. Now concerning faith is a work like another other fruits of the Spirit which are.......... joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance ~ why would you and others work to make faith the only means of being justified, and not.... let's say love? Tom, faith is a work, you do know that do you not?

Matthew 23:23~"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone."

1st John 3:23~"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."

You are guilty of mixing the law of works with the doctrine of free justification by grace alone, without the works of the law! The very reason why we have Galatians 2:16 in our bible for us to steer free of works, including our own faith, and for us to trust in the life of Jesus Christ as our only hope of eternal life. A life of perfect faith and obedience to God as our surety before the law of God.

 

[TomL]

I said what I said based upon what you posted~I see that all the versions here you are using said the same thing, which they are all wrong! I say this based on what the true gospel of Jesus Christ proclaims ~free justification through the faith and obedience of ONE, Jesus Christ.

Sorry you do not get to rewrite scripture based on your beliefs

They all state you must believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ

nor do you get to assume your view faith is a work when scripture denies faith is a method of works salvation

Romans 4:1–5 (ESV) — 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Romans 4:16 (ESV) — 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry you do not get to rewrite scripture based on your beliefs

Tom, I do not rewrite scriptures, nor do I use the so-called Greek to change meanings of a text that I do not like or cannot fit into my doctrine; nor do I use any of the hundreds of false versions to help me to support what I know to be the true; so, sir you are talking to the wrong man.

They all state you must believe in Christ to be justified by the faith of Christ

Tom, you keep repeating it does not make it so, and you certainly have not provided scriptural proof, and the reason being is your gospel you are laboring to promote is another gospel that falls under the curse of Galatians one~Tom, this should concern you, but obviously it does not~and I do not have any power to change that, all I can do is to be a faithful witness to the truth.

nor do you get to assume your view faith is a work when scripture denies faith is a method of works salvation

I do not assume this, I proved it with scriptures, something that is foreign to you. I gave to you Matthew 23:23; 1st John 3:23; and I have more, but you never address what I gave, and the reason being is that you cannot.

Tom faith from us is a work, and a imperfect work at that, even in our prayers sin is present!

Romans
7:21~"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me."

And you think that our faith is the means of our legal justification! That, sir, is called deception! You would think calling upon the name of the Lord is good, and it is, yet sin is present even in our most holy duties~it grieves us, but, it is a fact if one is honest before God and man. The only faith that is pleasing to God in a merited manner, is the faith of his Son.

Romans 4:1–5 (ESV) — 1 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Romans 4:16 (ESV) — 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

I'm coming back to address these two scriptures in depth, and it will be my pleasure in doing so~and you probably will not like it~but let me thank you for choosing all these wonderful scriptures for me, they certainly do not belong with your work gospel.

 

[civic]

NKJV has it right but Its the KJV mistranslation. The others all say IN Christ.

New International Version
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

New Living Translation
Yet we know that a person is made right with God by faith in Jesus Christ, not by obeying the law. And we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we might be made right with God because of our faith in Christ, not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be made right with God by obeying the law.”

English Standard Version
yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Berean Standard Bible
know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

King James Bible
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

New King James Version
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

New American Standard Bible
nevertheless, knowing that a person is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law; since by works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

NASB 1995
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

NASB 1977
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

Legacy Standard Bible
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Christian Standard Bible
and yet because we know that a person is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we ourselves have believed in Christ Jesus. This was so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ. And we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.

American Standard Version
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Contemporary English Version
But we know that God accepts only those who have faith in Jesus Christ. No one can please God by simply obeying the Law. So we put our faith in Christ Jesus, and God accepted us because of our faith.

English Revised Version
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, save through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Yet, we know that people don't receive God's approval because of their own efforts to live according to a set of standards, but only by believing in Jesus Christ. So we also believed in Jesus Christ in order to receive God's approval by faith in Christ and not because of our own efforts. People won't receive God's approval because of their own efforts to live according to a set of standards.

Good News Translation
Yet we know that a person is put right with God only through faith in Jesus Christ, never by doing what the Law requires. We, too, have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be put right with God through our faith in Christ, and not by doing what the Law requires. For no one is put right with God by doing what the Law requires.

Literal Standard Version
having also known that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, but through faith from Jesus Christ, we also believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be declared righteous by faith from Christ, and not by works of law, because no flesh will be declared righteous by works of law.”

Majority Standard Bible
know that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

New American Bible
[yet] who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

New Revised Standard Version
yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law.

New Heart English Bible
yet knowing that no one is justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

Weymouth New Testament
know that it is not through obedience to Law that a man can be declared free from guilt, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. We have therefore believed in Christ Jesus, for the purpose of being declared free from guilt, through faith in Christ and not through obedience to Law. For through obedience to Law no human being shall be declared free from guilt.

World English Bible
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

 

[TomL]

Tom, I do not rewrite scriptures, nor do I use the so-called Greek to change meanings of a text that I do not like or cannot fit into my doctrine; nor do I use any of the hundreds of false versions to help me to support what I know to be the true; so, sir you are talking to the wrong man.

Sorry but you surely did

Acts 11:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.(future tense)

You tried to rewrite to say youu will receive words by which you know you have already been saved (paraphrase)

Further there is not a single translation which reads the way you claim it

Tom, you keep repeating it does not make it so, and you certainly have not provided scriptural proof, and the reason being is your gospel you are laboring to promote is another gospel that falls under the curse of Galatians one~Tom, this should concern you, but obviously it does not~and I do not have any power to change that, all I can do is to be a faithful witness to the truth.

Sorry, this is just rhetoric and opinion and proof of nothing

correct your understanding of Acts 11:14

Address how any could be justified and be

Ephesians 2:1–3 (KJV 1900) — 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Ephesians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

until you do that you have nothing

 

[Red Baker]

Romans 4:1-5~"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23). Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship in Galatians 3. Abraham is the greatest example of it. Abraham lived under the same system that NT believers lived under...the system of faith. Not as a means of obtaining, but as the means of knowing, understanding of free justification through Jesus Christ.

All believers stand by faith (Galatians 2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6).

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers which is still with us just under different names.

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matthew 3:9; John 8:33; Exodus 3:6).

For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Romans 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Romans 4:13-16; Galatians 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Genesis 15:6).

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification ~ faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

Those who know the truth deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant ~ is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness? Consider carefully:

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Genesis 12:1-4; Hebrews 11:8; Genesis 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted!

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to the lake of fire(Genesis 14:18-20)?

Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Psalms 106:30-31)!

Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?

Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage?

God wrote Genesis 15:6 for the future use of Paul in showing the important role of faith to Jews trusting the Law that came 430 years later and to Gentiles that had no Law at all! Faith is the system under which God has called his children to live under in order for them to come to the knowledge of their free justification by grace alone through Jesus' obedience.

Romans 4:16~"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"

"Therefore it is of faith"~Justification and our eternal inheritance are of faith – claimed by faith as the stated evidence. As throughout this whole fourth chapter, faith is set opposite the works of Moses’ Law; therefore, conclusions should not be drawn in this limited arena and by Paul’s limited scope to address free will, election, decisional regeneration, Arminianism, Calvinism, etc., etc. The sense in which justification or the promise is of faith is the same as the role held by works – "they are both evidence". Paul condemned works as conditions here in this chapter. So, the condition for evidence is fait, and if an evidenced, then it is not the means thereof.

"That it might be by grace" Grace means it is unconditional – a promise by a sovereign Benefactor – without conditions.

God did not do all He could by grace but leave the results up to reprobates to exercise faith! If circumcision or the Law were required, then it would not be grace but rather man’s works. If anything is required that God must wait on for man to perform, then it is not of grace.

"To the end the promise might be sure to all the seed"~ Any conditions for obtaining the promise would guarantee some, many, or all missing out.

Arminians come up wanting here, for there is nothing sure about their plan of salvation, except that most of the seed God intended to save and tried to save will end up in the lake of fire. . What promise? The eternal inheritance of the elect, inclusive of all the promises to Abraham. Since all will be saved that God intended to save (Rom 8:28-39), how was it accomplished?

"Not to that only which is of the law"~How could God fulfill His promise to those following Moses’ Law? By unconditional grace!

1. These are the Jews, being of the Law by race, nation, and creed, as distinct from Gentiles.

"But to that also which is of the faith of Abraham"~ The distinction here, from those just described as being of the Law, are Gentile believers.
To be Abraham’s seed in this sense, Abraham must be their father, which was true (4:11).

"Who is the father of us all"~Abraham was not the father of the Jews only, which they were foolish and quick to claim and trust (Matthew3:9; John 8:39). He was also the father of Gentile believers, which Paul had already shown (4:11-12).

 

[TomL]

I do not assume this, I proved it with scriptures, something that is foreign to you. I gave to you Matthew 23:23; 1st John 3:23; and I have more, but you never address what I gave, and the reason being is that you cannot.

Tom faith from us is a work, and a imperfect work at that, even in our prayers sin is present!

And you think that our faith is the means of our legal justification! That, sir, is called deception! You would think calling upon the name of the Lord is good, and it is, yet sin is present even in our most holy duties~it grieves us, but, it is a fact if one is honest before God and man. The only faith that is pleasing to God in a merited manner, is the faith of his Son.

Sure you do as Paul contradicted you

Romans 4:1–5 (KJV 1900) — 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Do you fail to see Paul contrasted those who work and those who believe?

Romans 4:14–16 (KJV 1900) — 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

do you fail to see Paul writes showing that faith establishes that it is by grace

 

[TomL]

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23). Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship in Galatians 3. Abraham is the greatest example of it. Abraham lived under the same system that NT believers lived under...the system of faith. Not as a means of obtaining, but as the means of knowing, understanding of free justification through Jesus Christ.

All believers stand by faith (Galatians 2:16; 3:1-5); God approved Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6).

Why is Abraham so important? For very good reasons in opposing the legalism of Judaizers which is still with us just under different names.

All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matthew 3:9; John 8:33; Exodus 3:6).

For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Romans 4:9-12). For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Romans 4:13-16; Galatians 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Genesis 15:6).

Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions. Arminians hold conditional justification ~ faith is the human condition for righteousness. Calvinists hold instrumental justification – faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

Actually non Calvinists hold faith is the instrument of justification as well as the Calvinist

There is no contradiction in stating faith is both a condition and the instrumental cause of faith

But seing as you differentiate yourself from both Arminians and Calvinist and you are not a provisionist just what are you?

You appear to be a hyper Calvinist. Is that correct?

Those who know the truth deny both as being heretical notions, for our faith does not affect legal justification.

Sorry, that is the epitome of heresy

Denying classic protestant thought of justification by faith

and scripture

Rom 3:28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Rom 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 2:16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3:24So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

 

[brightfame52]

Point 5

God eternally decreed not to punish sin in his people, but in his Son. His decree to punish sin in his Son, includes his will to impute it to him; and his purpose not to punish it in his elect, takes in his will not to impute it to them, and must be their Justification from all sin in his sight.

I believe this is why Paul wrote 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This has to do with God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This Eternal Purpose in Christ is the same as the Everlasting Covenant with Christ, and God never purposed to impute sins to the Elect, but upon Christ, so this was their Justification ! 3

 

[TomL]

Point 5

God eternally decreed not to punish sin in his people, but in his Son. His decree to punish sin in his Son, includes his will to impute it to him; and his purpose not to punish it in his elect, takes in his will not to impute it to them, and must be their Justification from all sin in his sight.

I believe this is why Paul wrote 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This has to do with God's Eternal Purpose in Christ Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

This Eternal Purpose in Christ is the same as the Everlasting Covenant with Christ, and God never purposed to impute sins to the Elect, but upon Christ, so this was their Justification ! 3

Nothing there about God punishing the son, and you set the godhead at odds with each other

while scripture shows them working in union

2 Corinthians 5:18–20 (KJV 1900) — 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

nor was sin imputed to Christ as he remained ever holy

regarding such imputation, Adam Clarke notes

a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were imputed to him, and reckoned as his own1

1 Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 6, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 338–339.

and the Calvinist Barne's notes

Nor, (2.) Can it mean that he was a sinner, for it is said in immediate connection that he “knew no sin,” and it is everywhere said that he was holy, harmless, undefiled. Nor, (3.) Can it mean that he was, in any proper sense of the word, guilty, for no one is truly guilty who is not personally a transgressor of the law; and if he was, in any proper sense, guilty, then he deserved to die, and his death could have no more merit than that of any other guilty being; and if he was properly guilty it would make no difference in this respect whether it was by his own fault or by imputation: a guilty being deserves to be punished; and where there is desert of punishment there can be no merit in sufferings. But all such views as go to make the holy Redeemer a sinner, or guilty, or deserving of the sufferings which he endured, border on blasphemy, and are abhorrent to the whole strain of the Scriptures. In no form, in no sense possible, is it to be maintained that the Lord Jesus was sinful or guilty. It is a corner stone of the whole system of religion, that in all conceivable senses of the expression he was holy, and pure, and the object of the divine approbation. And every view which fairly leads to the statement that he was in any sense guilty, or which implies that he deserved to die, is prima facie a false view, and should be at once abandoned

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: II Corinthians & Galatians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 133.

 

[civic]

Nothing there about God punishing the son, and you set the godhead at odds with each other

while scripture shows them working in union

2 Corinthians 5:18–20 (KJV 1900) — 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

nor was sin imputed to Christ as he remained ever holy

regarding such imputation, Adam Clarke notes

a most blasphemous doctrine; viz. that our sins were imputed to Christ, and that he was a proper object of the indignation of Divine justice, because he was blackened with imputed sin; and some have proceeded so far in this blasphemous career as to say, that Christ may be considered as the greatest of sinners, because all the sins of mankind, or of the elect, as they say, were imputed to him, and reckoned as his own1

1 Adam Clarke, The Holy Bible with a Commentary and Critical Notes (vol. 6, New Edition.; Bellingham, WA: Faithlife Corporation, 2014), 338–339.

and the Calvinist Barne's notes

Nor, (2.) Can it mean that he was a sinner, for it is said in immediate connection that he “knew no sin,” and it is everywhere said that he was holy, harmless, undefiled. Nor, (3.) Can it mean that he was, in any proper sense of the word, guilty, for no one is truly guilty who is not personally a transgressor of the law; and if he was, in any proper sense, guilty, then he deserved to die, and his death could have no more merit than that of any other guilty being; and if he was properly guilty it would make no difference in this respect whether it was by his own fault or by imputation: a guilty being deserves to be punished; and where there is desert of punishment there can be no merit in sufferings. But all such views as go to make the holy Redeemer a sinner, or guilty, or deserving of the sufferings which he endured, border on blasphemy, and are abhorrent to the whole strain of the Scriptures. In no form, in no sense possible, is it to be maintained that the Lord Jesus was sinful or guilty. It is a corner stone of the whole system of religion, that in all conceivable senses of the expression he was holy, and pure, and the object of the divine approbation. And every view which fairly leads to the statement that he was in any sense guilty, or which implies that he deserved to die, is prima facie a false view, and should be at once abandoned

Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: II Corinthians & Galatians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 133.

Thanks for quoting the Calvinist Barnes. What I appreciate about him the most is he is honest and faithful with the text and does not allow calvinism to interfere with the exegesis of the text. I often quote him as a hostile witness for calvinists. In fact I often quote Calvin to many calvinists as a hostile witness and the respond I use to always get on the old forum was :

We don not follow Calvin
You are obsessed with Calvin
We follow Jesus not man.

 

[TomL]

Thanks for quoting the Calvinist Barnes. What I appreciate about him the most is he is honest and faithful with the text and does not allow calvinism to interfere with the exegesis of the text. I often quote him as a hostile witness for calvinists. In fact I often quote Calvin to many calvinists as a hostile witness and the respond I use to always get on the old forum was :

We don not follow Calvin
You are obsessed with Calvin
We follow Jesus not man.

Barne's though a Calvinist is one of my favorite commentators. You are correct, he strives to be honest and faithful with the text

 

[civic]

Barne's though a Calvinist is one of my favorite commentators. You are correct, he strives to be honest and faithful with the text

I respect him because he can be objective with the text and not subjective allowing his calvinism to interfere with the biblical text. Like you he is one of my favorite commentators even though I'm no longer a calvinist. In fact I hold him own higher regard now than I did then.