Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[Doug Brents]

Sorry, you said doctrine not religion, my apology to you.

Calvin actually was raised in RCC.

Understood, but that is not a Christian religion. It is papist.

Calvin at times disagree with Augustine and even Martin Luther, even those he highly respected Luther for his work on the reformation of laboring to bring back proper worship and doctrine~even those they (both him and Calvin) brought some doctrines with them out of the great whore, that they never were 100% free of~infant baptism being one of them. No difference between us and them, we too will died not being 100% converted to the pure teachings of Jesus Christ, even though we may labor to be be so, it is part of our fallen nature, sad to say.

That is true.

Sorry, this point must wait until later, but the scriptures will prove you so wrong on this doctrine.

David sought God, and God answered (Psalm 34:4).
Paul said that all men everywhere were made with the ability and duty to seek God, and to find Him (Acts 17:17).
If any can, and many have, then the concept of total depravity is proven false.

This we can discuss now, and will, but let me finish will Romans 9 now to around verse 25, or so.

I'm sure we will cover all thsi very soon.

Doug, I'm not a Calvinist in the sense in which folks label Calvinism. Consider:

The Truth as I understand the scriptures teachings on these points. The truth distinguishes between unconditional and conditional aspects of God’s salvation, dividing between God’s work and our duty.

First~Arminianism in its five points is totally rejected as unscriptural and blasphemous against the intentions and accomplishments of Christ.

Man is neither free nor able to cooperate with God for salvation (John 3:3;

John is talking about comprehending and becoming a part of the Kingdom of God, which is the Church. He is not saying that you must be saved before you can seek God.

8:43,47;

Similarly, this passage is not saying that no one can seek God. All man can seek God because God has drawn all men toward Himself by being lifted up on the cross (John 12:32).

10:26;

These people were not of His sheep YET. Many of them became His sheep on Pentecost, even many of the Pharisees, but at this time they were not yet His sheep.

Rom 8:7-8

The key here is the mind that is set on the flesh. Even though man is flesh, and has a nature of sin, it is possible for man to seek God and focus his mind on desiring God. We all fail, but even before God saves us, we can seek Him and find Him, and He will hear us and rescue us.

I Cor 2:14;

The Spirit of God works in us, even before we are saved, to help us understand His word. And everyone who seeks God receives the Spirit's guidance to understand the Scriptures.

Eph 2:1-3).

Again, this passage does not say that those who are lost in sin CANNOT seek God. It says that all WERE lost in sin, including the Apostles, but God has made them, and us, alive in Christ. But none of these passages speak to the timing of when and how we are made alive in Christ. We must look to other passages to find those answers.

God’s foreknowledge in election did not find any conditions met; it was of persons, not actions (Psalm 14:1-3; 53:1-3; Rom 8:29). Jesus Christ’s death accomplished salvation for His elect; it did not merely make it possible (Matt 1:21 Rom 5:10; Hebrews 9:15). The Holy Spirit’s work in applying salvation through regeneration is effectual and sure (John 3:8; Eph 1:19; Titus 3:5; I Pet 1:2). The elect cannot be lost nor separated from the purpose of God in salvation (John 6:38-39; Rom 8:28-39; II Timothy 2:16-19).

Man has a free will and the ability to choose good versus evil. Did Joshua not command the nation of Israel to choose whom they would serve? And did they not choose God? They did, but then they ceased to obey God, and fell into the condemnation side of God's promises.

Jesus' death did indeed accomplish salvation, not just for the elect but for the whole world (1 John 2:2). But that accomplished salvation is not applied to any individual until that individual hears the Gospel, understands and accepts it, and obeys it (2 Thes 1:8).

Calvinism may be accepted in its first three points as scriptural and according to the truth of the gospel as preached by brother Paul. Man’s nature is totally corrupt since Eden, rendering him without desire or ability to know or please God in any way for salvation.

As noted previously, man is depraved, but not to the extent that he cannot seek God. No, we cannot please God to the extent that we would incite God to save us because of anything we have done. But we can and do seek God, and we can and do please Him through our faith in His Son (Heb 11:6).

God’s election of some men to eternal life is based purely on the good pleasure of His will in spite of their foreseen evil rebellion. Jesus Christ died only for the elect, and He will not lose a single one of those that the Father gave Him to fully and finally redeem.

Jesus died for all mankind, not just the elect (1 John 2:2). His foresight was not just of their evil rebellion, but also of the repentance and obedience of some. His foresight even includes knowledge of some who claim to be His and do great works in His name, but He they never obeyed Him and so were never known by Him.

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Irresistable Grace, for they apply it to the gospel and conversion, which is farther than truth. They apply irresistible grace, or what they name the “effectual call,” to the preaching of the gospel in the case of all the elect. They believe that all the elect will hear and believe the gospel sometime during their lives and cannot be saved without these things. This is sacramental salvation, for unless the “priest” carries the grace of God’s gospel to the elect, they cannot be saved without it. They must therefore invent all sorts of alternative theories to cover the salvation of infants, idiots, heathen, the deaf and blind, etc. Of course, they rarely define what they mean by “saving faith,” or they would make it to loose, or limit the elect to just a very few. The typical Calvinist, even John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards, seldom differentiate clearly between regeneration and conversion. God’s grace is definitely irresistible when it comes to regeneration, but conversion by the gospel depends on preacher and hearer. The first of the acts is God’s work in salvation, and the second is the information and news concerning it for the comfort of the elect.

By the bolded section above, I believe you mean that one is saved/made righteous by God, and then at some point in their life they will hear the Gospel and realize that they have been saved. Nothing could be further from the Truth. If that were the case, then God would have told Cornelius to send for Peter to tell him why he had already been saved. But instead, God told Cornelius to send for Peter who would preach words to him BY WHICH HE WOULD BE SAVED. Again, Saul would have already been saved, and would only have needed Ananias to tell him that he was saved. Yet Ananias told Saul to, "Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name." (Acts 22:16) No, salvation is actually applied to an individual when that person hears the Gospel and obeys it (Heb 5:8).

However, Calvinism errs with its point of Final Perseverance, for they end up with a fatalist doctrine of men incapable of backsliding. Persevering is man’s action. If God guarantees man’s perseverance, then he will continue in faith and good works without fail. This fatalistic doctrine, if logically followed, would render the New Testament epistles and the work of the ministry unnecessary.

If by final perseverance the Calvinist means God will not lose any of His elect, then why not call it preservation like the Bible?

God will preserve His saints so that not one will be lost and all make it safely to heaven, but He has not guaranteed their faithfulness.

Can one who is unfaithful actually make it to Heaven? No. God does give tools, and help, and support to the saints to preserve them (ie: the Church, and fellowship which continually draws us back to God when we stumble). But He does allow us to defy Him and turn our backs on Him (as He did with the Israelites).

 

[Doug Brents]

Your perspective of God is corrupt

That, coming from you, is high praise, for I do not trust anything you say with regards to God or His Word.

 

[Red Baker]

BTW You cannot show man became totally adverse to God after the fall.

Tom that's the truest statement you have yet made since I have been reading your posts~the only thing you left out was......

BTW You cannot show ME man became totally adverse to God after the fall.

Tom, you correct, I cannot, the power lies with God only opening the hearts of men to his truths.

Luke 24:16​

“But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.”

Consider:

Truth Is Not a Right

Natural man in religion proudly assumes that truth is his right, easily obtained, and owed to him. A right is something another owes you due to debt or your person, position, or value. Since any god he allows is by his own imagination, God must love him and bless him. Modern Christians, ignorant and proud, cannot accept God blinding or deceiving men.

Our first parents chose a lie in Eden; we in Adam forfeited truth and have been held captive by the father of lies since (Gen 2:17; 3:6; John 8:44; Eph 2:1-3; 2nd Cor 4:1-7; Rev 12:9). We love our lying father and his deeds we all did gladly until liberation (John 8:44; Eph 2:1-3; Luke 11:21-22).

This point – lies for punishment for rejecting revealed truth – is important to grasp. God promised strong delusion for lies to those rejecting truth (2nd Thess 2:10-12)~many truths concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ you Tom, reject.

This is the same as God’s promise to Israel for religious hypocrisy (Is 29:9-16). Ahab learned the painful lesson with multiple lies before dying in battle (Ist Kings 22). In Christ’s religion, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer (Luke 19:11-27). All hate creation, providence, conscience (Ps 19:1-6; Ro 1:18-20; 2:12-16; Acts 14:17). God does not owe truth; our persons and proclivities beg lies (Ps 14:1-3; 58:3; 51:5). Deceitful hearts convince men of anything contrary to God (Jer 17:9-10; Prov 22:15).

Truth Is Only By Revelation

Deception is terrible – to believe a lie is the truth – to not know your dear truth is a lie! Tom, man believes a lie as a lie – he is sure his lies are truth and boldly boasts of them, just as you do! He is confident he has more than sufficient evidence and proof for his conclusions. Just as you do!

Truth comes from God, and since truth is good, it is therefore a blessing, not a curse. It is not by rationalization or reasoning but only by God revealing it to the unworthy. Learning truth requires both God sending and preparing (Rom 10:12-18; Acts 16:14). So Tomj, I'm a Bible Christian depending on His revelation (Ps 119:128; 2nd Tim 3:16-17)~knowing God owes it to none and mocks (Isaiah 44:9-20); God deludes others (2nd Thess 2:9-12).

 

[TomL]

Tom that's the truest statement you have yet made since I have been reading your posts~the only thing you left out was......

Tom, you correct, I cannot, the power lies with God only opening the hearts of men to his truths.

Sorry that is a total copout

if you cannot post scripture showing after Adam fell that he and his children were totally adverse to God, then you have no business teaching it.

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry that is a total copout

if you cannot post scripture showing after Adam fell that he and his children were totally adverse to God, then you have no business teaching it.

No cop out Tom, but a biblical truth.

 

[Red Baker]

Understood, but that is not a Christian religion. It is papist.

A lot to reply to, we will see how much we shall now answer, we will not answer all, some may wait as it comes up in this thread, some deserves its own thread.

I agree conconcernign RCC, even though I do not believe all are unregenerate, there may be a few within that false cult that are children of God, just have not seen the light as of yet, God knows, we do not. The leaders I do not put any trust in to be other than what they are, children of the devil~blind leading the blind.

David sought God, and God answered (Psalm 34:4).
Paul said that all men everywhere were made with the ability and duty to seek God, and to find Him (Acts 17:17).
If any can, and many have, then the concept of total depravity is proven false.

Doug, of course David being a child of God, sought God from his youth up. David was neither of the spirit of Cain, or Esau, etc. David was man after God's own heart~you know the scriptures concerning David.

Concerning Acts 17~you added your own thoughts to what is written by saying: "all men everywhere were made with the ability and duty to seek God, and to find Him" Luke did not write those words, while we agree that Adam was created upright and given all he needed to continue in the state in which God created him, yet as soon as God left him to himself, he sinned, and lost the image of God~that consist in spiritual wisdom, knowledge and understanding~he at once became at enmity against his Creator~again, not just an enemy, which is bad enough, but man became at war against the God of heaven, and all that God stands for.

The sad state of those Athenians is seen in what Paul said brought strange words to their ears, showing just how far fallen man has departed from the Living God. While it is true, all that Paul said was biblical and should be words spoken to men who have no knowledge of the God of heaven~his words fell on death ears, they only profit a few, according to such scriptures as Acts 13:48, written by Luke who wrote Acts 17. Man's Depravity is actually proven in these scriptures as we see men wasting their valuable time on nothing more than trying to hear something new that was not important, and what was, it seem so strange to them! Start a thread on total depravity, and I'll come.

John is talking about comprehending and becoming a part of the Kingdom of God, which is the Church. He is not saying that you must be saved before you can seek God.

I have made a few posts on John 3, so I'm not going to repeat myself now. But, John 3:1-8 is very clear that except a man be born again he cannot see the things of the kingdom of God, impossible per Jesus' teachings.

These people were not of His sheep YET. Many of them became His sheep on Pentecost, even many of the Pharisees, but at this time they were not yet His sheep.

The all men are Jews and Gentiles! If any man were able to hear and follow, it was because it was given to them of God, period. We have proven this over and over again. Matthew 16:17, etc.

The key here is the mind that is set on the flesh. Even though man is flesh, and has a nature of sin, it is possible for man to seek God and focus his mind on desiring God. We all fail, but even before God saves us, we can seek Him and find Him, and He will hear us and rescue us.

I'm coming back to this one point after I do some business first that is calling me at the moment.

 

[Rockson]

Tom, you correct, I cannot, the power lies with God only opening the hearts of men to his truths.

You sound like a Mormon here. You don't need the scriptures how about we just pray right now and see if you get that fire in the belly type feeling. Don't worry about insisting upon scripture to see if such is so. That's just a fad that passed away with the early church. NOT

 

[Red Baker]

You sound like a Mormon here. You don't need the scriptures how about we just pray right now and see if you get that fire in the belly type feeling. Don't worry about insisting upon scripture to see if such is so. That's just a fad that passed away with the early church. NOT

Rockson, I never said we do not need the scriptures, that's your take on what I said concerning God must open the eyes of our understanding and that TO THE SCRIPTURES.

Ephesians 1: 17,18​

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,”

 

[civic]

Um election according to foreknowledge is not Calvinism

That is what old Arminians held

Rofl

A Calminian

 

[Red Baker]

Actually, if the truth was known~most Armenians are Calminianites.

 

[Rockson]

Rockson, I never said we do not need the scriptures, that's your take on what I said concerning God must open the eyes of our understanding and that TO THE SCRIPTURES.

So if the Bereans didn't accept what you say the scripture says by their diligent study that therefore means you'd say to them well God has just got to open your eyes to it? You'd say don't depend on your continual assessment of the scripture but take what I say as truth?

 

[TomL]

Rofl

A Calminian

Corporate election has become the more common view

 

[Red Baker]

So if the Bereans didn't accept what you say the scripture says by their diligent study that therefore means you'd say to them well God has just got to open your eyes to it? You'd say don't depend on your continual assessment of the scripture but take what I say as truth?

Being a noble Christian is indeed a means of coming to the knowledge of the truth~but even then, God must open our understanding to his truth. When two sincere believer's differ over doctrine, one of them are wrong, in some cases maybe both are, but never are both right. No man should take another man as being infallible, we spend our life being converted to a more perfect knowledge of the truth, but we shall never be without fault, it is part of our fallen nature. Paul was as close to the truth as any man that has ever lived outside of Jesus Christ, yet, he only saw in part, even though a overall knowledge of the truth. All that he wrote under the inspiration of God was perfect. John may have had a better understanding than Paul on eschatology but, be as it may be, we all are still being converted yearly to a more perfect knowledge of God's word~at least, we should be.

 

[TomL]

No cop out Tom, but a biblical truth.

Again, if you cannot produce biblical support for your claim, you have no business teaching it

Now do you have any evidence Adam and his children became totally adverse to God after the fall?

 

[Doug Brents]

Doug, of course David being a child of God, sought God from his youth up. David was neither of the spirit of Cain, or Esau, etc. David was man after God's own heart~you know the scriptures concerning David.

David, like every one of us today, was not born righteous, or a child of God, or a man after God's own heart. He became such because of his faith (his belief and actions). David sought the Lord even before he was a child of God. You would have us believe that David was saved from the bear, and the lion, and Goliath, and then he went to fact them.

Concerning Acts 17~you added your own thoughts to what is written by saying: "all men everywhere were made with the ability and duty to seek God, and to find Him" Luke did not write those words, while we agree that Adam was created upright and given all he needed to continue in the state in which God created him, yet as soon as God left him to himself, he sinned, and lost the image of God~that consist in spiritual wisdom, knowledge and understanding~he at once became at enmity against his Creator~again, not just an enemy, which is bad enough, but man became at war against the God of heaven, and all that God stands for.

Man did not lose the image of God when he sinned, smh. The image of God still resides in each and every one of us: the image of God in us is the living soul that is our very being. No, our soul lost communion with God's Spirit, but we did not lose our soul. But you are correct that at that instant our soul died (was cut off from the life giving source), and we, like the angels, entered a state of war with God.

The sad state of those Athenians is seen in what Paul said brought strange words to their ears, showing just how far fallen man has departed from the Living God. While it is true, all that Paul said was biblical and should be words spoken to men who have no knowledge of the God of heaven~his words fell on death ears, they only profit a few, according to such scriptures as Acts 13:48, written by Luke who wrote Acts 17. Man's Depravity is actually proven in these scriptures as we see men wasting their valuable time on nothing more than trying to hear something new that was not important, and what was, it seem so strange to them! Start a thread on total depravity, and I'll come.

Yes, many of the Athenians were only seeking to hear words that tickled their ears. But many of them were truly seeking God, and so when they heard Paul, they followed after him so they could learn more about the one true God.

I have made a few posts on John 3, so I'm not going to repeat myself now. But, John 3:1-8 is very clear that except a man be born again he cannot see the things of the kingdom of God, impossible per Jesus' teachings.

It is true that a person must be born again before he can understand the deep things of the Kingdom of God. But it is not true that one must be born again before he can understand his need for salvation, before he can even seek God. Satan has twisted our need for God into a seeking for something else to fill the need we have for God, but the need to seek God is still a part of every soul.

The all men are Jews and Gentiles! If any man were able to hear and follow, it was because it was given to them of God, period. We have proven this over and over again. Matthew 16:17, etc.

God can reveal Himself to a person without that person already being saved. Take for example Saul/Paul. He saw the Lord revealed to him on the road, but that did not save him. He was not saved before or during that encounter, because three days later he was still in his sin when Ananias came to him (Acts 22:16). It was not until he obeyed the Lord in baptism that his sins were washed away.

 

[Red Baker]

Again, if you cannot produce biblical support for your claim, you have no business teaching it

Now do you have any evidence Adam and his children became totally adverse to God after the fall?

Tom why are you trying to hijack this thread? Is there another thread dealing with total depravity? If so, go there and I'll come.

 

[TomL]

Being a noble Christian is indeed a means of coming to the knowledge of the truth~but even then, God must open our understanding to his truth. When two sincere believer's differ over doctrine, one of them are wrong, in some cases maybe both are, but never are both right. No man should take another man as being infallible, we spend our life being converted to a more perfect knowledge of the truth, but we shall never be without fault, it is part of our fallen nature. Paul was as close to the truth as any man that has ever lived outside of Jesus Christ, yet, he only saw in part, even though a overall knowledge of the truth. All that he wrote under the inspiration of God was perfect. John may have had a better understanding than Paul on eschatology but, be as it may be, we all are still being converted yearly to a more perfect knowledge of God's word~at least, we should be.

More perfect understanding may arise by a more perfect application of the whole council of God

 

[TomL]

Tom why are you trying to hijack this thread? Is there another thread dealing with total depravity? If so, go there and I'll come.

I guess that means you are unable to produce support for your view

 

[Red Baker]

I guess that means you are unable to produce support for your view

Unable? Find a thread addressing this subject, or start one, and see if I'm unable.

 

[Red Baker]

David, like every one of us today, was not born righteous or a child of God, or a man after God's own heart.

Amen concerning not being born from his mother's womb righteous, or a man after God's heart.

He became such because of his faith (his belief and actions).

He became righteous as every elect child of God becomes righteous! By imputation of Christ's righteousness! Hear from David's own mouth.

Psalms 32:1,2~"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile."

Romans 4:6-8~"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

As the blessing of the pardon of sin cannot be separated from our being viewed as perfectly righteous in the sight of God, Paul further confirms his doctrine by a reference to Psalms 32:1-2

The expression ‘imputeth righteousness without works,’ is important, as it clearly ascertains that the phrase ‘for righteousness, signifies unto the receiving of righteousness. It signifies receiving righteousness itself, not a substitute for righteousness, nor a thing of less value than righteousness, which is accounted or accepted as righteousness. The verse before us contains no explicit refutation of these unscriptural statements, which subvert not only the whole of the apostle’s reasoning on the doctrine of justification, but the whole doctrine of salvation. The righteousness here said to be imputed is that righteousness to which Paul had all along been referring, even the righteousness of God on account of the revelation of which the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, and which, as has been noticed above, is by the Apostle Peter called the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ, in which believers have obtained precious faith. That the apostle refers in the verse before us to this righteousness which fulfills the law, is evident, if we look back to what he says in the 21st verse of the preceding chapter, and to what he continues to say respecting it onwards to this 6th verse, and to the effect he here ascribes to it. If any one can suppose that all this is insufficient to settle the question, I shall produce an argument which is unanswerable, and which all the ingenuity of man is unable to gainsay It must be the righteousness of God (or the righteousness of Christ, which is the same) that is here spoken of BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER RIGHTEOUSNESS ON EARTH.

To say with many, that the God of truth values anything "as equal to the complete performance of duty," which is not so in reality, is to give a most unworthy, not to say a blasphemous, representation of His character. Far different are the following sentiments of Dr. Owen in his treatise On Justification. "The sinner is not accepted as if he were righteous, but because in Christ Jesus he is so. The majesty of the law is not sacrificed; its requirements are fulfilled in their exceeding breadth; its penalty is endured in all its awfulness. And thus, from the meeting of mercy and loving-kindness with justice and judgment, there shines a most excellent glory, of which the full demonstration to men, and angels, and all the rational creatures of God, shall fill up the cycles of eternity."

Our faith rests upon Christ alone It in effect excludes itself as a work in the matter of justification. It is not a thing upon which a sinner rests; it is his resting on the Surety. Therefore, that man who would bring in his faith as a part of his justifying righteousness before God, thereby proves that he has no faith in Jesus Christ. He comes as with a lie in his right hand; for such is the absurdity, that he trusts in the act of faith, not in its object ~ i.e., he believes in his faith, not in Jesus Christ. Having taken Christ, as he pretends, he would have that very act whereby he received Him sustained at the Divine tribunal as his righteousness. Thus Christ is bid to stand at a distance, and the sinner’s own act is by himself bid to come near in the case of justification. This is nothing else but works under another name. It is not faith, for that necessarily establishes grace.

Man did not lose the image of God when he sinned, smh. The image of God still resides in each and every one of us:

Doug, you are confused to speak mildly. Once Adam sinned he lost God's image and took on the image of his new master~the devil himself.

Genesis 5;3~"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"

To understand what this image consist of them we need to look at the image we receive from God at the new birth.

Ephesians 4:24​

“And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”

Colossians 3:10​

“And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:”

The image of God is true righteousness, holiness, spiritual knowledge, wisdom and understanding~all which Adam lost when he disobey God. In the new birth these are created in our new man again after the image of Jesus Christ.

the image of God in us is the living soul that is our very being. No, our soul lost communion with God's Spirit, but we did not lose our soul.

Doug, do you know the different between our souls and our spirits? Obviously not. Let me come back, this is taking longer than I desire to go into. But, I will a little.