Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[TedT]

That your theology holds God determines them to commit - right?

..a bit simplistic.

IF GOD determines all things then either HE determines which sins we do or this ALL things needs to be corrected. I do not try to make these opposites to both be true at the same time.

So I am to try to justify GOD determining the sins we do. First, I am assured, GOD does create sinners by having us to be born into Adam and inheriting the sinful separation from GOD that sets us on the path of having to endure the consequences of sin, his sin, that is. So I am already willing to say if HE creates us as (insert your favourite euphemism for inherited sin here), that is, as sinful from our creation by our conception, then I should have no difficulty accepting that HE also creates/determines the actual sins I do as the sinful person I was created to be, in Adam.

My problem is that I find this doctrine of our being created sinful by inherited sinfulness, no matter how it is defined or what words are used, to be wrong and to smell of sulphur. Not that I believe that infants are not sinful because they can and do die and death is the wages for sin not a consequence of life so death proves sinfulness...but the sinfulness must be accrued only by their personal free will decision to rebel against one of HIS commands or against GOD HIMself.

The whole reason for our life on earth is to separate the sinful elect, the sinful good seed aka the sinful people of the Kingdom, His the sheep gone astray into sin, from the sinful reprobate non-elect weeds so they may be damned as per Matt 13: 27-30. If we did not need to live in sin with the weeds to expedite the fulfillment of HIS election promise for our redemption and sanctification we would not be here.

So, IF we are sinful by our own choice to rebel, is it evil for GOD to lead us into the sins we will to commit anyway to open our own sinful eyes to our sinfulness, to our guilt, to our nakedness before HIM so that we are moved to repent?

IF our impulse to sin is completely from our own hearts and desires (and not from GOD in the least) how is it evil for HIM to choose for us how we express that sinful desire to 1. help mitigate suffering and to 2. move us to choose repentance and our saviour the smoothest, best, quickest way possible?

We know HE uses our sins to chastise us (no innocent is ever chastised, right?) so impelling the sinner to choose a sin of lighter or heavier consequences for a lighter or heavier chastisement is not unimaginable, Heb 12:5-11.

IF a sinner is intent on murdering someone, is it evil for HIM to interfere so that the victim is only injured but not killed by a change in his actions?

 

[TedT]

God could have pre damned all mankind if He wanted to. He predamned the non elect angels and provided them no Saviur at all. Is that fair ?

GOD wants all to be saved and takes no pleasure in the death of anyone:
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. HE only created that which gave HIM pleasure.

Psalm 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell. Evil gives HIM no pleasure, proof HE did nothing to create it.

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
with
1 Timothy 2:4 ...who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
thus rendering the of doctrine of the destruction for sins of the future to be moot because all HE had to do to fulfill ALL HIS pleasure of Ezek 33:11 and 1 Tim 2:4 was to NOT CREATE THOSE PERSONS WHOM HE FOREKNEW WOULD END IN HELL!!

 

[brightfame52]

sure you have

I know it

you know it

those who read know it

Not what the text shows

verse 22

Romans 9:22 (KJV 1900) — 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


GOD CHOOSING - GOD WILLING CONCESSIVE USE OF THE PARTICIPLE, ALTHOUGH WILLING, NOT CAUSAL THAT THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE MAY BE SEEN 1TH 2:15 A.T ROBINSON (calvinist)



FITTED TO DESTRUCTION - MEN PERSISTENT IN EVIL. IT IS IN THE MIDDLE VOICE INDICATING THAT THE VESSELS OF WRATH FITTED THEMSELVES FOR DESTRUCTION. VINE ‘

see

2 Timothy 2:20–21 (ESV) — 20 Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

you did not address a single one

Again God has made some people for destruction, theyre called in scripture vessels of wrath versus people He made for mercy and glory, theyre called vessels of mercy Rom 9:90-23

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[brightfame52]

GOd wants al to be saved andtakes no pleasur

Oh no, did He want the Angels that sinned to be saved ? 2 Pet 2:4

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

 

[TomL]

Again God has made some people for destruction, theyre called in scripture vessels of wrath versus people He made for mercy and glory, theyre called vessels of mercy Rom 9:90-23

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

did you read the potter and clay reference

Jeremiah 18:1–12 (NASB 2020) — 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 “Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

Do you just assume the potter spoil the clay?

or was the clay itself defective?

Do you not see God's word to Israel (in red)and how they rejected it

God originally chose Israel to be a noble vessel, but they were unfaithful so he used instead for the ignoble purpose of crucifying the messiah

There is nothing in the passage about god unconditionally choosing them to be vessels fit for destruction.

 

[TedT]

God made some men as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction Rom 9:22

this is just another way of saying that some people, the reprobate, are condemned already as men and others, the sinful believers (elect) are never condemned !!! John 3:18. Everyone gets the life best fitted to HIS purpose for them as under HIS promise of election or as HIS bad examples to teach those who can repent to hate evil and all idolatry.

HE did NOT create them evil and therefore condemned, but they became persons HE deemed to be vessels of wrath fit for destruction by their own free will decision to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god, the unforgivable sin.

 

[TomL]

..a bit simplistic.

IF GOD determines all things then either HE determines which sins we do or this ALL things needs to be corrected. I do not try to make these opposites to both be true at the same time.

So I am to try to justify GOD determining the sins we do. First, I am assured, GOD does create sinners by having us to be born into Adam and inheriting the sinful separation from GOD that sets us on the path of having to endure the consequences of sin, his sin, that is. So I am already willing to say if HE creates us as (insert your favourite euphemism for inherited sin here), that is, as sinful from our creation by our conception, then I should have no difficulty accepting that HE also creates/determines the actual sins I do as the sinful person I was created to be, in Adam.

My problem is that I find this doctrine of our being created sinful by inherited sinfulness, no matter how it is defined or what words are used, to be wrong and to smell of sulphur. Not that I believe that infants are not sinful because they can and do die and death is the wages for sin not a consequence of life so death proves sinfulness...but the sinfulness must be accrued only by their personal free will decision to rebel against one of HIS commands or against GOD HIMself.

You do not believe death cannot be as consequence of sin?

Someone's sin cannot result in the death of the innocent?

It happens all the time in this world

and as a result of sin we lost access to the tree of life

The whole reason for our life on earth is to separate the sinful elect, the sinful good seed aka the sinful people of the Kingdom, His the sheep gone astray into sin, from the sinful reprobate non-elect weeds so they may be damned as per Matt 13: 27-30. If we did not need to live in sin with the weeds to expedite the fulfillment of HIS election promise for our redemption and sanctification we would not be here.

so are you affirming unconditional election to salvation?

If so do you have as verse which states it.

So, IF we are sinful by our own choice to rebel, is it evil for GOD to lead us into the sins we will to commit anyway to open our own sinful eyes to our sinfulness, to our guilt, to our nakedness before HIM so that we are moved to repent?

I believe that idea runs into scriptural problems

1 John 2:16 (ESV) — 16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

James 1:13–14 (ESV) — 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

IF our impulse to sin is completely from our own hearts and desires (and not from GOD in the least) how is it evil for HIM to choose for us how we express that sinful desire to 1. help mitigate suffering and to 2. move us to choose repentance and our saviour the smoothest, best, quickest way possible?

We know HE uses our sins to chastise us (no innocent is ever chastised, right?) so impelling the sinner to choose a sin of lighter or heavier consequences for a lighter or heavier chastisement is not unimaginable, Heb 12:5-11.

IF a sinner is intent on murdering someone, is it evil for HIM to interfere so that the victim is only injured but not killed by a change in his actions?

How does he choose for us and not violate

1 John 2:16 (ESV) — 16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life—is not from the Father but is from the world.

James 1:13–14 (ESV) — 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

 

[brightfame52]

did you read the potter and clay reference

Jeremiah 18:1–12 (NASB 2020) — 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 “Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

Do you just assume the potter spoil the clay?

or was the clay itself defective?

Do you not see God's word to Israel (in red)and how they rejected it

God originally chose Israel to be a noble vessel, but they were unfaithful so he used instead for the ignoble purpose of crucifying the messiah

There is nothing in the passage about god unconditionally choosing them to be vessels fit for destruction.

I read before, yet God created some people for wrath and destruction for His Glory

 

[brightfame52]

this is just another way of saying that some people, the reprobate, are condemned already as men and others, the sinful believers (elect) are never condemned !!! John 3:18. Everyone gets the life best fitted to HIS purpose for them as under HIS promise of election or as HIS bad examples to teach those who can repent to hate evil and all idolatry.

HE did NOT create them evil and therefore condemned, but they became persons HE deemed to be vessels of wrath fit for destruction by their own free will decision to rebuke HIM as a liar and a false god, the unforgivable sin.

Of course the sinful elect God created to show mercy but the sinful non elect God created to show wrath

 

[TomL]

I read before, yet God created some people for wrath and destruction for His Glory

Obviously you are not responsive to scripture and will believe what you want

did you read the potter and clay reference

Jeremiah 18:1–12 (NASB 2020) — 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 “Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

Do you just assume the potter spoil the clay?

or was the clay itself defective?

Do you not see God's word to Israel (in red)and how they rejected it

God originally chose Israel to be a noble vessel, but they were unfaithful so he used instead for the ignoble purpose of crucifying the messiah

There is nothing in the passage about god unconditionally choosing them to be vessels fit for destruction.

 

[brightfame52]

Obviously you are not responsive to scripture and will believe what you want

did you read the potter and clay reference

Jeremiah 18:1–12 (NASB 2020) — 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 “Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

Do you just assume the potter spoil the clay?

or was the clay itself defective?

Do you not see God's word to Israel (in red)and how they rejected it

God originally chose Israel to be a noble vessel, but they were unfaithful so he used instead for the ignoble purpose of crucifying the messiah

There is nothing in the passage about god unconditionally choosing them to be vessels fit for destruction.

Nothing here says God didnt create some men as vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made/created me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

That word is the greek word atimia:

1. dishonour, ignominy, disgrace, shame

This has reference to the shame and disgrace the wicked will receive in the resurrection at the second coming and day of judgment Dan 12

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

See God created them for this everlasting dishonor and shame and contempt. He fitted them for it all their lives even as they correspondingly fitted themselves.

 

[TomL]

Nothing here says God didnt create some men as vessels of wrath and fitted them for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made/created me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

That word is the greek word atimia:

1. dishonour, ignominy, disgrace, shame

This has reference to the shame and disgrace the wicked will receive in the resurrection at the second coming and day of judgment Dan 12

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

See God created them for this everlasting dishonor and shame and contempt. He fitted them for it all their lives even as they correspondingly fitted themselves.

read the passage

Obviously you are not responsive to scripture and will believe what you want

did you read the potter and clay reference

Jeremiah 18:1–12 (NASB 2020) — 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 “Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

Can you not see God is attempting to cause Israel to repent and they are opposing him

That God is responding to them according to their behavior

If they obey, he will bless them

If they do not, he will relent of bringing them good

Open your eyes and read

You cannot get your theology from this passage

Nor can you get it from Paul's summary statement in Romans 9
Romans 9:30–33 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Paul continues positing the obtaining of righteousness by faith and not by works of the law

...................................................
He is not determining their behavior
as noted previousl;y

Do you just assume the potter spoil the clay?

or was the clay itself defective?

Do you not see God's word to Israel (in red)and how they rejected it

God originally chose Israel to be a noble vessel, but they were unfaithful so he used instead for the ignoble purpose of crucifying the messiah

There is nothing in the passage about god unconditionally choosing them to be vessels fit for destruction.

Rom 9:20-22 does not state God created them for destruction

God is defending his right to use them in their rebellion to accomplish his goal of bringing salvation to the world

 

[brightfame52]

read the passage

Obviously you are not responsive to scripture and will believe what you want

did you read the potter and clay reference

Jeremiah 18:1–12 (NASB 2020) — 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 “Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’
Can you not see God is attempting to cause Israel to repent and they are opposing him
That God is responding to them according to their behavior
If they obey he will bless them
If they do not he will relent of bringing them good
Open your eyes are read
You cannot get your theology from this passage
Nor can you get it from Paul's summary statement in Romans 9
Romans 9:30–33 (KJV 1900) — 30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Paul continues positing the obtaining of righteousness by faith and not by works of the law

...................................................
He is not determining their behavior
as noted previousl;y

Do you just assume the potter spoil the clay?

or was the clay itself defective?

Do you not see God's word to Israel (in red)and how they rejected it

God originally chose Israel to be a noble vessel, but they were unfaithful so he used instead for the ignoble purpose of crucifying the messiah

There is nothing in the passage about god unconditionally choosing them to be vessels fit for destruction.

Rom 9:20-22 does not state God created them for destruction

God is defending his right to use them in their rebellion to accomplish his goal of bringing salvation to the world

I have read the passage, nothing says some men were not made vessels of wrath and are being fitted for destruction.

 

[TomL]

I have read the passage, nothing says some men were not made vessels of wrath and are being fitted for destruction.

Very poorly it seems

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/doctrine-of-unconditional-election.1384/post-56986

 

[civic]

@TedT



Yes however they are still damned for the sins they are going to commit

Why would God have non elect angels in heaven with Him singing praises to Him all the while knowing He would be damning them eternally ?

After all they were created for the very purpose to sin and rebel against God with no other choice to do otherwise since it was determined by God before creating them.

Do you enjoy giant dill pickles ?

 

[civic]

did you read the potter and clay reference

Jeremiah 18:1–12 (NASB 2020) — 1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, 2 “Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will announce My words to you.” 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. 4 But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. 5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 6 “Am I not able, house of Israel, to deal with you as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, house of Israel. 7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot it, to tear it down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will relent of the good with which I said that I would bless it. 11 So now, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘This is what the LORD says: “Behold, I am forming a disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Now turn back, each of you from his evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds!” ’ 12 But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will persist in the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

Do you just assume the potter spoil the clay?

or was the clay itself defective?

Do you not see God's word to Israel (in red)and how they rejected it

God originally chose Israel to be a noble vessel, but they were unfaithful so he used instead for the ignoble purpose of crucifying the messiah

There is nothing in the passage about god unconditionally choosing them to be vessels fit for destruction.

The context with Jer 18 is a stumbling block when it comes to Roman’s 9. It is just the opposite of what they teach. The context always exposes their eisegesis of the passage

 

[brightfame52]

Very poorly it seems

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/doctrine-of-unconditional-election.1384/post-56986

I have read the passage, nothing says some men were not made vessels of wrath and are being fitted for destruction.

 

[TomL]

The context with Jer 18 is a stumbling block when it comes to Roman’s 9. It is just the opposite of what they teach. The context always exposes their eisegesis if the passage

Yes Typically they will isolate a verse from it's context pour a meaning into it consistent with their theology and then ignore everything else in the context

 

[brightfame52]

Why would God have non elect angels in heaven with Him singing praises to Him all the while knowing He would be damning them eternally ?

After all they were created for the very purpose to sin and rebel against God with no other choice to do otherwise since it was determined by God before creating them.

Do you enjoy giant dill pickles ?

I dont know what you talking about

 

[TomL]

I have read the passage, nothing says some men were not made vessels of wrath and are being fitted for destruction.

Sorry you are in denial

https://berean-apologetics.communit...ine-of-unconditional-election.1384/post-56986