civic
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Sure you don’t
Doctrine of Unconditional Election
- Thread starter brightfame52
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brightfame52
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Again I have read the passage, nothing says some men were not made vessels of wrath and are being fitted for destruction.
As I stated you are in denial
brightfame52
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Jer 18 says nothing about God not creating men for destruction ! Rom 9 teaches that, not Jer 18
Sorry neither do
And Rom 9 quotes from Jeremiah
brightfame52
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Gods Glory is manifested in Unconditional Sovereign Election and Reprobation. Election is a Matter of absolute Mercy Rom 9:11-15
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
God is not obligated to have mercy on any one of us, He would have been just to punish eternally everyone for their sins against Him.
However He purposed for His own Glory to have Mercy on only some, a remnant of mankind. Moses had asked God to show him His Glory, and the Lord answred Ex 33:18,19
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
See that, God in responding to Moses said He will proclaim HIS NAME ! And in that proclamation we have the sacred words " and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
The Glory of the Lord is bound up in His Sovereign Prerogative to be merciful and gracious to whomever He pleases understanding that He can withhold the same to whomever He pleases.
Ps 115:3
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
God is not obligated to have mercy on any one of us, He would have been just to punish eternally everyone for their sins against Him.
However He purposed for His own Glory to have Mercy on only some, a remnant of mankind. Moses had asked God to show him His Glory, and the Lord answred Ex 33:18,19
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
See that, God in responding to Moses said He will proclaim HIS NAME ! And in that proclamation we have the sacred words " and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."
The Glory of the Lord is bound up in His Sovereign Prerogative to be merciful and gracious to whomever He pleases understanding that He can withhold the same to whomever He pleases.
Ps 115:3
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Jer 18 shows that God is a Sovereign Potter with Israel the nation, has nothing to do with God being the Sovereign Potter in election and reprobation. In Rom 9 it shows that individuals were created as vessels of wrath and fitted for destruction, and that certain men were created as vessels of mercy and preparing for Glory.
A reference to
Genesis 25:23 (ESV) — 23 And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger.”
Refers to the birthrite and the selection of Israel over Edom for the service of God
A reference to
Malachi 1:1–4 (ESV) — 1 The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi. 2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” 4 If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’ ”
not personal animosity against Esau but his posterity stated many many years after both Jacob andEsau died
for the reason
Obadiah 8–14 (ESV) — 8 Will I not on that day, declares the LORD, destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of Mount Esau? 9 And your mighty men shall be dismayed, O Teman, so that every man from Mount Esau will be cut off by slaughter. 10 Because of the violence done to your brother Jacob, shame shall cover you, and you shall be cut off forever. 11 On the day that you stood aloof, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth and foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Jerusalem, you were like one of them. 12 But do not gloat over the day of your brother in the day of his misfortune; do not rejoice over the people of Judah in the day of their ruin; do not boast in the day of distress. 13 Do not enter the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; do not gloat over his disaster in the day of his calamity; do not loot his wealth in the day of his calamity. 14 Do not stand at the crossroads to cut off his fugitives; do not hand over his survivors in the day of distress.
Indeed God determines the grounds upon which he shows mercy
In a passage you quoted inappropiately
Romans 11:32 (ESV) — 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
his aim is to have mercy upon all which in the biblical context is in the sending of Christ to the cross that all might obtain righteousness theough faith rather than therough law which man was not able to obtain.he
Again what you quoted
Romans 11:32 (ESV) — 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Mercy was the gift of salvation through faith
There is nothing about unconditional election to salvation in Rom 9
Rom 9 does not show that god created people to be vessels of wrath
Romans 9:22–24 (ESV) — 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
The fact he is enduring them with much patience shows he has not so created them
GOD CHOOSING - GOD WILLING CONCESSIVE USE OF THE PARTICIPLE, ALTHOUGH WILLING, NOT CAUSAL THAT THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE MAY BE SEEN 1TH 2:15 A.T ROBINSON
1 Thessalonians 2:14–15 (ESV) — 14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind
One cannot read the gospels with seeing the condemnation of many of the Jews for their own acts of violence and disobedience
FITTED TO DESTRUCTION - MEN PERSISTENT IN EVIL. IT IS IN THE MIDDLE VOICE INDICATING THAT THE VESSELS OF WRATH FITTED THEMSELVES FOR DESTRUCTION. VINES‘
civic
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Sorry Roman’s 9 comes from Jeremiah 18 which Paul is directly quoting from. Very poor hermeneutics on your part which amounts to nothing but eisegesis.
Next………….
Hope this helps !!!
brightfame52
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Quoting those scriptures doesnt change anything I have shown with scripture
brightfame52
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Rom 9:11-13 is clear that election is unconditional
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Reprobation is also unconditional, for instance God didnt hate esau based upon the bad he would do, his reprobation and hate for him was before he was born to exist.
brightfame52
Well-known member
Jer 18 says nothing about God not creating men for destruction ! Rom 9 teaches that, not Jer 18
civic
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You can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink. You have been led to the truth start drinking it
Sorry that concerns the birth rite not salvation
and verse 13 refers to the nation of Israel and Edom
Malachi 1:2–5 (ESV) — 2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” 4 If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’ ” 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!”
God's loves for Jacob manifested itself in his choice of Israel over Edom
Death is ONLY a consequence of sin... how can you think from my post that I mean the opposite?
No innocent suffers or dies except Christ.
Ezek 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Does GOD not follow HIS own law?
Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
ImCo, this is a false perception of reality based upon the fallacy that we are created on earth as innocents.
The sin of another may bring consequences on others
Jeremiah 19:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;
Jeremiah 19:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Again you come to the opposite conclusion of what I mean???
I contend that election to salvation AND election to reprobation are by the merit or dismerit of the faith of the person responding to YHWH's proclamation of Deity and that the Divine Son is the only saviour from sin, Col 1:23.
Choosing by faith, an unproven hope, that YHWH was telling us the truth in HIS proclamation was counted as meritorious and GOD's response was to elect the people who chose by their free who put their faith in HIM to salvation from any and all sin.
Putting one's faith in HIM as telling us lies about reality, putting their faith in HIM being a liar and therefore a false god was egregious to the max and they were condemned on the spot, chosen for an eternity in hell.
John 3:18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. Berean Standard Bible
That is: Whoever believes in Him, ie, who has ever put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour, is never condemned, but whoever has never believed, ie, has never put their faith in HIM as their GOD and Saviour, has already been condemned, because he has not ever believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. Thus this faith by the free will of a moral innocent is the true saving faith that the sinful elect are returned to by their redemption in Christ...and this decision of faith in HIM is the merit that is the foundation of their election to the heavenly Marriage.
The desire in our hearts that tempts us to do evil is NOT FROM GOD but is from our own addiction to sin which we got by rebelling against either one of HIS commands or against HIM personally as a liar by our free (not enslaved to sin) will.
WE choose to sin - GOD chooses how we express that impulse to express the evil that we have become by our previous rebellion.
Just an aside to wonder out loud how the twins could know of their birthrights in the society they would be born into so that they were fighting about it while in the womb?
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