Do we have any Catholics here?

[synergy]

No, but just like some protestant churches they baptize babies for some reason.

The reason for me is that there was no prohibition against that practice until Anabaptist times. So that ordinance was practiced and therefore approved by the Apostles and the Early Church. Now that doesn't absolve one from making a commitment to Christ when he becomes older.

 

[Red Baker]

You're now conceding that man's will factors into his salvation. In other words, salvation is not monergistic,

You have a serious reading comprehension when it comes to spiritual truths, which maybe the problem lies in the fact that God has not as of yet open your blinded eyes~or, you could be just down right deceitful in twisting my words. God knows and I'll leave it there with him, he can just as easily send you more of a strong delusion which you are living under. Listen carefully to what I posted, which if you were honest, is what you should had posted and then made you point, which you chose the deceitful path of saying what you wanted to say, but that's how false professors operate in the gospel's and the book of Acts, are full of their evil acts against Christ and his apostles.. Again listen carefully:

God gave them only one simple commandment to do, yet what he did not do, was to secure them in the state in which they were created, he left them to the power of their own will, (as he did the the angels that kept not their first estate). This is the first covenant at work, the covenant of work......."This do and live, sin and die". God was not under obligation to secured them by any oath or promises as the New Covenant is built upon, but not the first with our first parents.

God did leave our first parents to the power of their own will in obeying God's one simple commandment, which will, was not living in a body where sin was already present! A tremendous difference from our wills which before regeneration can only operate under the power of indwelling sin,a nature that is at enmity against God, not just an enemy, but much worse, it is at constant war against him, incapable of obeying him, and truly hates the very thought of doing so ! Get your fact right before posting.

it is synergistic

Is another gospel that Paul pronounces a curse upon in Galatians, you might want to check it out and see just how deep you are into this false gospel, I think pretty deep with a curse written all over it. But, if one is under a strong delusion, it would matter very little to him.

Thanks for confirming that the vicious circle is broken by man's will. That's all I needed to know

Again, you have a serious reading comprehension, it is called select reading, believing what I want to beleive by the god I have created in my own heart, that thinks the way I think, and would do as I would do if I was God.

What exactly are you promoting here with your "covenant of works" statement? How is that any different than the 10 Commandments Covenant?

The ten commandment are a summed of the totality of the works of the law. There are only to ways to inherit eternal life, the first was the one our first parent were under (the covenant of works called the first covenant, or the OT) and we in Adam our head, and we sinned in Adam. There is a second covenant called the everlasting covenant of grace, which all that were chosen in Christ are under.

We can dive into thsi as deep as you desire to go, but enough for now since I do not want to waste precious time with anyone that will only mock truth, or has no desire to hear more.

 

[Red Baker]

The reason for me is that there was no prohibition against that practice until Anabaptist times. So that ordinance was practiced and therefore approved by the Apostles and the Early Church. Now that doesn't absolve one from making a commitment to Christ when he becomes older.

Ever heard of the Waldensians? And other unknown, misfit, that neve gave in to infant baptism. Sad to say, truth does get lost from generation to generation until a time appointed by God to turn things around. But, it does not mean the truth is not in the scriptures.

2nd Kings 22:8-13​

“And Hilkiah the high priest said unto Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD. And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan, and he read it. And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king. And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not hearkened unto the words of this book, to do according servant of the king's, saying. Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, unto all that which is written concerning us."

So, your statement is totally false, the burden of proof in on you to prove that the apostles approve this false doctrine. It only proves just how fast false doctrine crept into the church after the apostles.

Jude 1:3,4​

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”

 

[GodsGrace]

Here is where Sam tells us the story of how he ended up in the Catholic Church:

I watched it. I was pretty surprised.
I don't listen to these people on a regular basis butù
I do respect him a lot.
His reason for believing in praying to the saints is a bit worrisome to me,,,
but if he understands it, OK.
God will be merciful to those of us that did not understand everything exactly 100% correctly.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings GodGrace.,

That's not what he asked:

Who gave them their fallen nature?

It's a problem all around RB.
I think I said (or I hope I did) that I did not read along, but this is a question that has fascinated me from the beginning of my
Christian journey.

Your question is such: WHO GAVE THEM THEIR FALLEN NATURE?
It's a problem because they did NOT HAVE the sinful/fallen nature at the beginning.
They were innocent and walked with God.
When they LOST their innocence, they realized they were nakes...no more innocence.

with no explanation as to what he meant by nine words. Now you came and presented it is a totally different format of a question, which I do not mind addressing at all and have more than once even on this forum.

A vicious circle assuming you mean: is a negative chain of events that reinforces itself, with no obvious way to stop it. Correct?

I'd have to know WHICH negative chain of events.
By vicious circle I mean this:
A SINFUL NATURE IS NEEDED TO SIN.
ADAM DID NOT HAVE A SINFUL NATURE UNTIL HE SINNED.
SO WHAT MADE HIM SIN IF HE HAD NO SINFUL NATURE??

Are those a negative chain of events?

You are assuming (but GodGrace, you are not alone) a position that's not taught in the word of God, pure and simple, not too deep to follow, if one is looking and trusting in the scriptures alone for their bible answer than it is right before their eyes. You said:

"Why did Adam sin if the sin nature" ...........God created Adam after his image, in true holiness/upright, with (spiritual) wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, this we know by knowing what the new birth consist of when we are recreate after the image of Jesus Christ. See Ephesians 4:20-24; Colossians 3:9,10; etc.

I'm not going to read the verses just yet...
but MADE IN GOD'S IMAGE means that God gave to us some of His attributes.
You listed here TRUE HOLINESS....
Not sure how far you want to take this holiness....
ONLY GOD IS PURELY HOLY...
Adam was not purely holy or he never would have sinned.

So Adam had no sin nature to deal with as we all do~Children of God have a dual nature (the old and new man) that is at constant war with each other.

Agreed.

"caused by sin"...............So I'm making sure I'm following you correctly ~ so are you saying the sin nature was caused by sin? Which is correct and that puts us on the same agreement so far, correct?

lol
And here is the vicious cycle again.
Yes,,,sin by Adam caused sin to enter the world which affected everything:
RELATIONSHIP OF MAN TO GOD
MAN TO MAN
MAN TO OTHERS
MAN TO NATURE

This sin that entered IS THE SIN NATURE...FLESH...whatever we want to call it.
It's a STAIN ON OUR SOULS. (but is not a personal sin).

I'd say that so far we agree.

"had not entered into the world yet?" Here is where this is no vicious circle. God created Adam after his own image and placed him in a beautiful garden with all he needed to live happy and very contended, with a beautiful wife well favored, I'm sure since she came directly from hands of Infinite wisdom, unlimited createability that we see in creation itself, we can only imagine in our wildest dreams, she did not roll out of some local beauty parlor, that puts all fake beauty on women, Eve was the read deal as we would say.

lol
Agreed !
No beauty parlor for Eve.

God gave them only one simple commandment to do, yet what he did not do, was to secure them in the state in which they were created, he left them to the power of their own will, (as he did the the angels that kept not their first estate). This is the first covenant at work, the covenant of work......."This do and live, sin and die". God was not under obligation to secured them by any oath or promises as the New Covenant is built upon, but not the first with our first parents.

Wait. I know the Covenants really well - I had to learn them to teach them.
So the Adamic Covenant was Unilateral, Unconditional....
I think, as usually happens, you're conflating the Adamic with the Edenic Covenant.

So, you're speaking of the Edenic Covenant which was
BILATERAL...both parties were involved
CONDITIONAL....God gave conditions to Adam
do this and all will be OK...do not eat, or....

Otherwise, yes, I agree.

So there, the vicious circle as you called is broken with Genesis 3:15 promised and enlarge upon through the everlasting covenant gradually made know to us through covenants made with men in the scriptures beginning with Noah, then Abraham, to David, to Christ the head of the covenant of grace with all of his elect members of his body.

OH...we're not speaking about the same thing.
OK on the Covenants....God has taken care of the man creature He created.

No. I'm speaking of a much deeper discussion to which, really, there is no answer.
This is why I said that the other member was asking a legitimate and good question.

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvin highly respected Augustine would be a better way of saying this.

OK.....no debate. But Calvin quoted Augustine about 4,000 times either in his Institution or maybe his sermons...can't remember right now.
I'll go with highly respected...

He disagree with him on quite few positions. But, I'm no experts on either of hem even though I have read more from Calvin than Augustine. Augustine's work on Revelation 20 is way ahead of his time and truly one of the best out there to read. I do not think Calvin wrote very much on end time prophecy if he did I have yet to locate any.

I'm not knowledgeable on Revelation or eschatology.

Augustine was no Catholic, he refer to the Catholic Church not as we think of the Catholic church today, it used it in its true meaning, meaning Universal church world wide. but he would have in no way supported what that whore teaches.

Red!
Augustine was a Catholic....the CC....not meaning universal church.
The CC was firmly established by the 5th century.
check it out.

The Catholic church took some of his writings and twisted it to make folks taht he was part of them when nothing could be farther from the truth. He retracted some of his earlier teaching to his own sorrow.

I'm wondering which of Augustine's writings the church twisted.
Do you know of any?

Augustine came up with a changed definition of Original Sin WHICH WAS INCORRECT.
The CC CHANGED its position but, happily, it has come to understand that his teaching is WRONG...and no longer teaches that unbaptized babies to to hell. What a horror of a doctrine!

I would be very careful not to slander his character, not saying you are, but men look for faults in others more than the good they did.

No RB.
Let me make this very clear.

I AM slandering Augustine's character.
Tell me some of the good he did.
He wrote wonderful words...
but he ended up believing man has no free will,
changing the meaning of OS,
teaching that God chooses who will be served.

(are you reformed? I don't think so).

Infant baptism is a lie, and for the life of me, I do not see how some of the great men of God gave in to false teaching, but they did, which only shows me, that we should not put our full trust in any man, but totally follow scriptures.

But it's AUGUSTINE THAT CHANGED the original position of the church!
Have you studied church history?
Babies were baptized from the beginning.
But not for the reason of salvation.
Nothing wrong with the reason they were being baptized...for a blessing, basically.
Augustine taught that they were born WITH SIN on their souls.

Augustine like all of God's children from the Apostles down to us, we gradually get converted with more understanding and knowledge as we grow in grace as we all should.

Agreed. But Augustine changed for the worse.
How are you learning about him??

As far as free will, man lost God's image of the power to have spiritual wisdom, knowledge and understanding which allows our wills to submit to the word of God, man was taken captive by sin and the Devil himself, and only the new birth sets one free again, but "not" until then! No such thing as free will to do righteous acts toward God in our fallen nature, impossible.

I agree but your last sentence is confusing to tell you the truth.

If we're in our fallen state....no act we do will make us righteous with God.
I think we agree.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, but just like some protestant churches they baptize babies for some reason.

It would be interesting to know why.

I know Catholic doctrine.
They baptize babies so they could become a part of the community
and so they could receive the Holy Spirit.

This is a complicated topic, but I'll give it a go:

In the early church babies were baptized because their parents were Christian
and they planned to raise their babies as Christians...These people died for their faith
so they were serious about their Christianity.

Then Augustine came along and taught that babies were born with sin (5th century).
Terrible teaching. Not biblical.

So now, the CC has changed its position and no longer teaches that unbaptized babies that die do
not go to hell.

So why are they still getting baptized?
The teaching of the CC is that baptism is REAL and the Holy Spirit IS RECEIVED.
However, the child must, at some point in his life, acknowledge this Holy Spirit in him
and "release" His power.

I know that the CC would like to begin baptizing adults...but too much push-back from the laity.

 

[Red Baker]

(are you reformed? I don't think so).

I'll be gone for a while but shall return and address both of your post.

No I'm not of the Reformed community of believers, for many reasons, even though I believe God has his children in many of their churches in this world, who they are only the Lord knows.

What faith do you adhere to, if any? Mine is more toward the Particular Baptist from England 1650~Samuel Richardson, etc. and from here is South Carolina on the coast where they came from England back back in 1500's to 1600's

I looked up from where you are from and it is beautiful!

The Lord who is gracious above all be so to you and your family there.

RB

 

[GodsGrace]

I'll be gone for a while but shall return and address both of your post.

No I'm not of the Reformed community of believers, for many reasons, even though I believe God has his children in many of their churches in this world, who they are only the Lord knows.

What faith do you adhere to, if any? Mine is more toward the Particular Baptist from England 1650~Samuel Richardson, etc. and from here is South Carolina on the coast where they came from England back back in 1500's to 1600's

I looked up from where you are from and it is beautiful!

The Lord who is gracious above all be so to you and your family there.

RB

My brother lives in So. Carolina.
Beautiful place. Low country he calls it.

I used to be Catholic.
Left over 40 years ago.
Right now I'm non-denominational.
I feel like the man without a country...
except I'm a girl !

I'm in the North of Tuscany...mountain area.
The south is what the tourists like but it's
really beautiful up here.

Later...

 

[Red Baker]

I used to be Catholic.
Left over 40 years ago.
Right now I'm non-denominational.
I feel like the man without a country...
except I'm a girl !

That's funny, so, you have the two XX chromosomes. The wicked community of LGBTQIA++++++ will never be able to change what God has ordained to be called male and female, with the male having the adam's apple, (which is what they tell service men to look for so they will not end up in bed with the wrong person) and a few other very visible distinguishing features given by the wisdom of Almighty God.

Actually we worship at home, since most all church are nothing more than a temple of fowl birds of the air~ Matthew 13:32 ....where the man of sin sits and rules therein ~ the man of sin is as simple as the phrase said: man of sin.....man of sin ~ meaning all men... Popes, Jimmy Swaggart's many of them of the Pentecostals cults, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and thousands more we could name, maybe more on this later.

Enough said. let me go and answer your post.

We live very close to Lake Keowee within 30 minutes..

 

[Red Baker]

I'd have to know WHICH negative chain of events.
By vicious circle I mean this:
A SINFUL NATURE IS NEEDED TO SIN.
ADAM DID NOT HAVE A SINFUL NATURE UNTIL HE SINNED.
SO WHAT MADE HIM SIN IF HE HAD NO SINFUL NATURE??

Greeting sister,

I held back a point this morning for the sake of time, that may help to solve your dilemma that I generally mention when speaking on this point.

God alone is immutable, man and angles are not, this attribute is an attribute of the Godhead alone possess, impossible to create this in another spirit, or flesh and blood, it is an attribute that is uncreated that makes God the infinite being that He is. The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to the Godhead: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

One important truth we learn from the fall of Adam is this truth that God alone is immutable. Man at best was created in God's image, concerning which I already mentioned above, but not with God's peculiar attributes that makes him the infinite God that he is concerning those attributes mention above, that no man or angels posses.

When God created Adam, he did not secure Adam form falling into sin, he created him with every conceivable gift that he needed not to sin, but being flesh and blood, he did not have the power of immutability, as the Godhead does. Thereby Adam sin as soon as God left him to himself, just as most of the created angles did, except the one elected by God to not leave their first estate, otherwise they too would have sin.

Before I move on, let me know if this helps.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's funny, so, you have the two XX chromosomes. The wicked community of LGBTQIA++++++ will never be able to change what God has ordained to be called male and female, with the male having the adam's apple, (which is what they tell service men to look for so they will not end up in bed with the wrong person) and a few other very visible distinguishing features given by the wisdom of Almighty God.

LOL Yes. 2 X
(You do know that THE MAN WITHOUT A COUNTRY is a poem, right? - the younger folk may not know this).

Actually we worship at home, since most all church are nothing more than a temple of fowl birds of the air~ Matthew 13:32 ....where the man of sin sits and rules therein ~ the man of sin is as simple as the phrase said: man of sin.....man of sin ~ meaning all men... Popes, Jimmy Swaggart's many of them of the Pentecostals cults, Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, and thousands more we could name, maybe more on this later.

You have a good list there.
I used to like Swaggart and always enjoyed his teachings - even after his downfall.
But, yes, it does seem however that the evil ones stand out more.

I miss the fellowship to be honest.
I'm attending a Catholic church right now because that's what we have here, but it has a lot of problems.
I look past it and try to find the good.

Enough said. let me go and answer your post.

We live very close to Lake Keowee within 30 minutes..

Yes...beautiful!
Honestly I like the hills at the Lake.
My brother lives in an area that's completely flat and I think I'd miss the higher ground.
I'm about an hour and 15 minutes north of Pisa.
About 30 minutes north of Lucca in the hill/mountain country.
Love the mountains!!

 

[GodsGrace]

Greeting sister,

I held back a point this morning for the sake of time, that may help to solve your dilemma that I generally mention when speaking on this point.

God alone is immutable, man and angles are not, this attribute is an attribute of the Godhead alone possess, impossible to create this in another spirit, or flesh and blood, it is an attribute that is uncreated that makes God the infinite being that He is. The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to the Godhead: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

Perfect.

One important truth we learn from the fall of Adam is this truth that God alone is immutable. Man at best was created in God's image, concerning which I already mentioned above, but not with God's peculiar attributes that makes him the infinite God that he is concerning those attributes mention above, that no man or angels posses.

Agreed. BUT What you listed above are NOT the attributes that God shared with man.
These belong ONLY to God...as you've stated.

When God created Adam, he did not secure Adam form falling into sin, he created him with every conceivable gift that he needed not to sin, but being flesh and blood, he did not have the power of immutability, as the Godhead does. Thereby Adam sin as soon as God left him to himself, just as most of the created angles did, except the one elected by God to not leave their first estate, otherwise they too would have sin.

Before I move on, let me know if this helps.

I agree.

 

[Red Baker]

RB
We're discussing this right now in the Catholics thread.

Here's my question to you:
Is there a difference between being born with the sin nature
and
being born with sin on the soul?

Before I answer this question, will you first read this and tell me if you agree, or, disagree. I want to make sure we agree on what is the soul of man.

Ecclesiastes 3:21

• "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

This illustrating the spiritual difference between man and other creatures. That the destination of man's spirit is upward. It is part of the soul that goes to stand before God their creator in heaven. While the destination of the spirits of the creatures of the earth is downward, to return back to the dust of the earth. The two diverse destinations because the souls and spirits of animals are not as of man, who was created in the image of God. Thus a man's soul and spirit is accountable, even as they are held in bondage to sin in the spiritual prison (1st Peter 3:19) or captivity of the body. An animal's spirit merely ceases to exist upon its death. In other words, the end differs widely from animal to human. The spirit of mankind goes upward in the soul, of which it is intimately related. Anything with the breath of life, including animals, are referred to living or souls (Genesis 1:20-24). By contrast, the word spirit refers only to the immaterial being. Man's spirit is closely connected with his soul as we shall see ~ soul, its meaning also pertains to breath. And so with such similarities it is easy to see how soul and spirit so intimately related, might be thought to be one and the same thing. But the soul relates more to the flesh, while the spirit to the higher communion with God.
1st Corinthians 15:45

• "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Here we see the first Adam equated with the living soul relating to the flesh, while the last Adam (Christ) equated with the living relating to the higher, non-fleshly, non-carnal nature. Soul and spirit are not used here by chance or un-ordered luck, they are God inspired to show the difference between Adam that sinned in his soul, and the Spirit of Christ who redeems man from that sin (Micah 6:7). The Spirit witnessing to our spirit, to save our souls. We see that the soul usually pertains to the conscious entity within the body. It is breath that has given life to our soul or conscious existence when we were born. That soul includes our personal makeup, or that which makes us different from every other individual. In other words, the body is the outward shell of you, but it is not all of what defines who you are. Each and every human being given the breath of life by God has a "unique" consciousness or soul, and that soul is intimately connected to the life blood of the flesh and body. If you shed man's blood, the breath of life ceases from that body and you have a corpse. That is to say, when the soul leaves, there is the death of the body. For without this breath of life, the soul cannot exist within the body, and the body cannot exist period.
Genesis 2:7

• "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Before God gave the breath of life, the body was just a lump of clay. But after God's miraculous creation process of giving the body breath, man became an inimitable living soul. So the soul, as contrasted with the spirit, is more nearly connected to the unique conscious life existence within the body--the living exhibition of our conscious being that defines us as individuals. As such, the breath of life or soul maintains the earthly body. When the soul is gone from the body, then life is gone from it.
Genesis 35:18

• "And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin."

The living soul does not exist apart from the body, except there is the death of the body. In that Genesis declares the soul was departing, we know that there is a soul in people that exists separate from and independent of the body at death. For it doesn't say that her body departed [or went away, only her soul. This signifying that body and soul are two distinct entities. When one takes their last breath, the conscious soul or existence departs from the body, and the result is the cessation of life in that body. Death is not the extinction of the soul (Matthew 10:28), but of the body in its separation and disunion from it. The Soul is in fact the conscious life within the body. And the word is sometimes translated life to illustrate this--for example in Leviticus chapter 17:
Leviticus 17:11

• "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

All the words in bold there are the same word, for as I said earlier, the soul is intimately tied to the life of the body. While the spirit is intimately related to the soul within the body, but not so tied. The salvation of Christ is the life of our conscious soul, but not of our mortal body. It is the spirit of God in us that saves our soul (James 1:21), as it witnesses with our spirit unto sanctification of the soul while we are here on earth in the body. The soul/life of the flesh is in the blood because it is by Christ's shed blood that the transgressions of our souls are atoned for. Likewise, the soul being the consciousness of being within us, can be vexed or made bitter or sad by outward circumstances specifically because it is so connected to the body. For example we read in 2nd Kings:
2nd Kings 4:27

• "And when she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught him by the feet: but Gehazi came near to thrust her away. And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul is vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid it from me, and hath not told me."

In the consciousness of her inner existence she was vexed or made bitter in the flesh. It is the soul that comprises the uniqueness of who we are in the flesh. That is why even after receiving Christ, in our spirit we may have an earnest desire to do the will of God, but in our soul (our whole being) we often struggle with sin because the soul is the life blood of the the flesh (Leviticus 17:11). In our humanity we are carnal or naturally evil, and the life of our souls are also tainted as a result (Romans 7:24). This can pull us toward the flesh and evil as this flesh wars against the soul so connected to it.
1st Peter 2:11

• "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;"

The lusts of the flesh war against our soul because the soul is the breath of life and identity and conscious existence within it. And when unsaved it is our spirit (so in communion with the soul) that gives in and moves the soul to turn to these lusts. But if we are saved, being resurrected in our spirit, we will want to do the will of God and so this spiritual warfare will overcome the soul and bring us into condemnation. But make no mistake, it is there and it is our spirit that helps the soul prevail over the body. For even though we are resurrected and made perfect in the spirit, the soul is warred against by the flesh all through our journey of Christian growth. Just as (under inspiration of God) the Apostle Paul states:
Romans 7:20-25

• "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
• I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
• For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
• But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
• O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
• I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

In the inward man, in His spirit, he delights in the law of God. But there is another law of his body that is warring against his soul. And it is seeking to bring his mind and soul into bondage to the lusts of the body. But being a saved man, the Apostle had the mind of Christ (1st Corinthians 2:16) via the Spirit of Christ, that in his soul's existence he serves God. Even though in the flesh, he finds himself sinning, with a desire that his soul depart (2nd Corinthians 5:8) that body of death. The soul is moved by the spirit to choose the law of God as what is important, over things of this world that are of little spiritual value.
Matthew 6:25

• "Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?"

God here again illustrates the life of the body is closely and deeply connected to the soul. So we are to take no thought for our mortal existence in our soul (breath of life of the body), because the truth is that your soul is more than that life connection to the body, but a life connection to the spirit. God is telling us here that there is the spirit that should overrule the soul (whole body of your life being) in what is truly more important. Will you take more thought for your soul's life existence on this earth, or for your spiritual well being that is more than the physical relationship to soul? The mortal connected to the soul is not what we should sets our hearts upon, but the spiritual kingdom of heaven.
Now might be a good time to look at the places in scripture where both words soul and spirit are found together. We see the first instance of this in the book of 1st Samuel.

1st Samuel 1:15

• "And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD."

To be of sorrowful spirit indicates she was sad or anguished in her spirit. While to pour out her soul indicates she offered up her whole existence. How do you pour out your soul? It is an idiom that illustrates emptying out the life blood (Leviticus 17:11), or the whole existence of a person. To lay it all before God. As opposed to the spirit, the soul represents the whole immaterial life existence of a person. We can have a haughty spirit or a humble spirit, we can be in high or in low spirits, because the spirit is identified with our immaterial energy that transcends the physical and is often manifested in our labor, outlook, attitude, direction, understanding, receiving and the way we deal with issues. Two words, two slightly different meanings, but both working in harmony together within the body. The Spirit being an intimate part of the soul, our body's life existence.
Isaiah 26:9

• "With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."

The desire of his soul is in his whole life's existence or being. While his seeking is of the spirit, which is the liveliness and animator of the actions of his soul. The two distinct words soul and spirit illustrating their similar but slightly different processes within the body. For example, we can effectively have the Spirit of Christ witness to us, but we cannot have the soul of Christ. For the soul is the one, individual, inimitable existence of being specific to each entity. Which is how the Lord can be in Heaven, but also within each and every Christian always. Because His Spirit is with us. Not that He's divided His soul up into a million parts. Likewise when God speaks of His Servant in whom He delights, the soul identifies the delight of his whole existence or being, and the spirit the energizer and animator for mankind.
Isaiah 42:1

• "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."

God's servant because it refers to the coming Messiah who humbled Himself and was made in the likeness of man (Philippians 2:6-8) in order to be the suffering servant unto the death of the cross. Revealed to be Christ of course in Matthew chapter 12:
Matthew 12:18

• "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles."

In whom His "soul" is well pleased reveals that it is in the delight of his whole existence or being. While His Spirit put upon Christ, is denoting His active force of power or righteous animator that will reveal the truth of the law to the Gentiles. It is His Spirit power that reveals the gospel to the Gentiles, not His soul. Which is why God can also give us of His Spirit, but not His soul. The fact is, the spirit of God bears witnesses with our spirit to uplift our souls and bring them into harmony with God's divine purpose for living our lives. Soul and spirit synchronized and working as one, in agreement with God's divine plan for us.
Luke 1:46-47

• "And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
• And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour."

So what is the difference between the soul and spirit? Mary is not stating that two different parts of her are happy, because the soul and the Spirit of the saved work in solidarity, in unison, one acting upon the other. We have to know that it is not by chance, accident, luck, happenstance or coincidence that God often inspires these two "different" words used together this way. It is to alert us to the subtle differences in what is being said. In Mary's soul, or her whole being, she magnifies or perceives the Lord as larger/greater (Sanctification), to His glory. While her spirit rejoices or was filled with joy concerning God her Saviour. In her soul existence the Lord is magnified, while in her spirit she rejoiced in God the Saviour of her soul (Lamentations 3:58; James 5:20). I believe that we all are one unit made up of three (purpose) components, which are the body, the soul and the spirit. The spirit is the animator of the soul, which connects it to the body. So is there a difference between soul and spirit? The answer is yes, albeit a fine distinction. We can see these illustrated as subtle difference in passages such as Hebrews chapter 4.

So, is this what you mean by soul?

So, my answer would be NO. The sin nature is the results of sin being imputed to them, thereby having sin in their soul, which causes them to love doing just about anything other than doing their religious duties toward God, like reading his word, praying and practicing what he commands us to do and this can be seen at such an early age in children.

The only different would be, that TIME has not yet given the opportunity to show it, because children in comparison to mature adults is a great gulf as far as the deed for wickedness being seen, and practiced. Children seem so innocent and they are in one sense, they just have not live long enough to bring out what is truly there in their hearts. As one old divine said, "be thankful they were born as small as they are, for if they could they would kill you when you begin to correct them and show them how they should live and do this and that!"

 

[GodsGrace]

Before I answer this question, will you first read this and tell me if you agree, or, disagree. I want to make sure we agree on what is the soul of man.

Ecclesiastes 3:21

• "Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"

This illustrating the spiritual difference between man and other creatures. That the destination of man's spirit is upward. It is part of the soul that goes to stand before God their creator in heaven. While the destination of the spirits of the creatures of the earth is downward, to return back to the dust of the earth. The two diverse destinations because the souls and spirits of animals are not as of man,

I'd say that animals do not have a spirit....
They certainly have a soul.

I do admire how you post a lot of scripture with your understandings.

who was created in the image of God. Thus a man's soul and spirit is accountable, even as they are held in bondage to sin in the spiritual prison (1st Peter 3:19) or captivity of the body. An animal's spirit merely ceases to exist upon its death. In other words, the end differs widely from animal to human. The spirit of mankind goes upward in the soul, of which it is intimately related. Anything with the breath of life, including animals, are referred to living or souls (Genesis 1:20-24). By contrast, the word spirit refers only to the immaterial being. Man's spirit is closely connected with his soul as we shall see ~ soul, its meaning also pertains to breath. And so with such similarities it is easy to see how soul and spirit so intimately related, might be thought to be one and the same thing. But the soul relates more to the flesh, while the spirit to the higher communion with God.
1st Corinthians 15:45

I believe that we might differ in this:
Let me state my understanding of BODY SOUL SPIRIT since you really wrote a lot ....I'll still go thru it.
I don't believe EVERYONE has the spirit in Thes 5:23

BODY....The fleshly part of man. What you can see...I think it's self-understood.
We all have a body.

SOUL....As you've stated...it is not the material part of man, but that part of him that makes him who he is individually.
The soul consists of the will, emotions, knowledge of a person. Everything that makes a person that cannot be seen.

SPIRIT...The spirit is only in those that are aware of God, have accepted to obey Him. Their spirit has been made alive and they are now complete in God.

• "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."

Here we see the first Adam equated with the living soul relating to the flesh,

The soul is not the flesh.
The flesh is the BODY.
The soul is not visible.
(you did say this somewhere).

while the last Adam (Christ) equated with the living relating to the higher, non-fleshly, non-carnal nature. Soul and spirit are not used here by chance or un-ordered luck, they are God inspired to show the difference between Adam that sinned in his soul, and the Spirit of Christ who redeems man from that sin (Micah 6:7). The Spirit witnessing to our spirit, to save our souls.

Agreed.
I'd also say that the SPIRIT has an affect on the SOUL.
The spirit changes our will, emotions, etc.
Or, at least, has an effect on them.

We see that the soul usually pertains to the conscious entity within the body. It is breath that has given life to our soul or conscious existence when we were born. That soul includes our personal makeup, or that which makes us different from every other individual. In other words, the body is the outward shell of you, but it is not all of what defines who you are. Each and every human being given the breath of life by God has a "unique" consciousness or soul, and that soul is intimately connected to the life blood of the flesh and body. If you shed man's blood, the breath of life ceases from that body and you have a corpse. That is to say, when the soul leaves, there is the death of the body. For without this breath of life, the soul cannot exist within the body, and the body cannot exist period.
Genesis 2:7

Agreed.
Did you do this study yourself??

• "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Before God gave the breath of life, the body was just a lump of clay. But after God's miraculous creation process of giving the body breath, man became an inimitable living soul. So the soul, as contrasted with the spirit, is more nearly connected to the unique conscious life existence within the body--the living exhibition of our conscious being that defines us as individuals. As such, the breath of life or soul maintains the earthly body. When the soul is gone from the body, then life is gone from it.
Genesis 35:18

Agreed.

• "And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin."

The living soul does not exist apart from the body, except there is the death of the body. In that Genesis declares the soul was departing, we know that there is a soul in people that exists separate from and independent of the body at death. For it doesn't say that her body departed [or went away, only her soul. This signifying that body and soul are two distinct entities. When one takes their last breath, the conscious soul or existence departs from the body, and the result is the cessation of life in that body. Death is not the extinction of the soul (Matthew 10:28), but of the body in its separation and disunion from it. The Soul is in fact the conscious life within the body. And the word is sometimes translated life to illustrate this--for example in Leviticus chapter 17:
Leviticus 17:11

• "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

All the words in bold there are the same word, for as I said earlier, the soul is intimately tied to the life of the body. While the spirit is intimately related to the soul within the body, but not so tied. The salvation of Christ is the life of our conscious soul, but not of our mortal body. It is the spirit of God in us that saves our soul (James 1:21), as it witnesses with our spirit unto sanctification of the soul while we are here on earth in the body. The soul/life of the flesh is in the blood because it is by Christ's shed blood that the transgressions of our souls are atoned for. Likewise, the soul being the consciousness of being within us, can be vexed or made bitter or sad by outward circumstances specifically because it is so connected to the body. For example we read in 2nd Kings:
2nd Kings 4:27

• "And when she came to the man of God to the hill, she caught him by the feet: but Gehazi came near to thrust her away. And the man of God said, Let her alone; for her soul is vexed within her: and the LORD hath hid it from me, and hath not told me."

In the consciousness of her inner existence she was vexed or made bitter in the flesh. It is the soul that comprises the uniqueness of who we are in the flesh. That is why even after receiving Christ, in our spirit we may have an earnest desire to do the will of God, but in our soul (our whole being) we often struggle with sin because the soul is the life blood of the the flesh (Leviticus 17:11). In our humanity we are carnal or naturally evil, and the life of our souls are also tainted as a result (Romans 7:24). This can pull us toward the flesh and evil as this flesh wars against the soul so connected to it.
1st Peter 2:11

• "Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;"

The lusts of the flesh war against our soul because the soul is the breath of life and identity and conscious existence within it. And when unsaved it is our spirit (so in communion with the soul) that gives in and moves the soul to turn to these lusts. But if we are saved, being resurrected in our spirit, we will want to do the will of God and so this spiritual warfare will overcome the soul and bring us into condemnation. But make no mistake, it is there and it is our spirit that helps the soul prevail over the body. For even though we are resurrected and made perfect in the spirit, the soul is warred against by the flesh all through our journey of Christian growth. Just as (under inspiration of God) the Apostle Paul states:
Romans 7:20-25

• "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
• I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
• For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
• But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
• O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
• I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

In the inward man, in His spirit, he delights in the law of God. But there is another law of his body that is warring against his soul. And it is seeking to bring his mind and soul into bondage to the lusts of the body. But being a saved man, the Apostle had the mind of Christ (1st Corinthians 2:16) via the Spirit of Christ, that in his soul's existence he serves God. Even though in the flesh, he finds himself sinning, with a desire that his soul depart (2nd Corinthians 5:8) that body of death. The soul is moved by the spirit to choose the law of God as what is important, over things of this world that are of little spiritual value.
Matthew 6:25

• "Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?"

God here again illustrates the life of the body is closely and deeply connected to the soul. So we are to take no thought for our mortal existence in our soul (breath of life of the body), because the truth is that your soul is more than that life connection to the body, but a life connection to the spirit. God is telling us here that there is the spirit that should overrule the soul (whole body of your life being) in what is truly more important. Will you take more thought for your soul's life existence on this earth, or for your spiritual well being that is more than the physical relationship to soul? The mortal connected to the soul is not what we should sets our hearts upon, but the spiritual kingdom of heaven.
Now might be a good time to look at the places in scripture where both words soul and spirit are found together. We see the first instance of this in the book of 1st Samuel.

1st Samuel 1:15

• "And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD."

To be of sorrowful spirit indicates she was sad or anguished in her spirit. While to pour out her soul indicates she offered up her whole existence. How do you pour out your soul? It is an idiom that illustrates emptying out the life blood (Leviticus 17:11), or the whole existence of a person. To lay it all before God. As opposed to the spirit, the soul represents the whole immaterial life existence of a person. We can have a haughty spirit or a humble spirit, we can be in high or in low spirits, because the spirit is identified with our immaterial energy that transcends the physical and is often manifested in our labor, outlook, attitude, direction, understanding, receiving and the way we deal with issues. Two words, two slightly different meanings, but both working in harmony together within the body. The Spirit being an intimate part of the soul, our body's life existence.
Isaiah 26:9

• "With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness."

The desire of his soul is in his whole life's existence or being. While his seeking is of the spirit, which is the liveliness and animator of the actions of his soul. The two distinct words soul and spirit illustrating their similar but slightly different processes within the body. For example, we can effectively have the Spirit of Christ witness to us, but we cannot have the soul of Christ. For the soul is the one, individual, inimitable existence of being specific to each entity. Which is how the Lord can be in Heaven, but also within each and every Christian always. Because His Spirit is with us. Not that He's divided His soul up into a million parts. Likewise when God speaks of His Servant in whom He delights, the soul identifies the delight of his whole existence or being, and the spirit the energizer and animator for mankind.
Isaiah 42:1

• "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."

God's servant because it refers to the coming Messiah who humbled Himself and was made in the likeness of man (Philippians 2:6-8) in order to be the suffering servant unto the death of the cross. Revealed to be Christ of course in Matthew chapter 12:
Matthew 12:18

• "Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles."

In whom His "soul" is well pleased reveals that it is in the delight of his whole existence or being. While His Spirit put upon Christ, is denoting His active force of power or righteous animator that will reveal the truth of the law to the Gentiles. It is His Spirit power that reveals the gospel to the Gentiles, not His soul. Which is why God can also give us of His Spirit, but not His soul. The fact is, the spirit of God bears witnesses with our spirit to uplift our souls and bring them into harmony with God's divine purpose for living our lives. Soul and spirit synchronized and working as one, in agreement with God's divine plan for us.
Luke 1:46-47

• "And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
• And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour."

So what is the difference between the soul and spirit? Mary is not stating that two different parts of her are happy, because the soul and the Spirit of the saved work in solidarity, in unison, one acting upon the other. We have to know that it is not by chance, accident, luck, happenstance or coincidence that God often inspires these two "different" words used together this way. It is to alert us to the subtle differences in what is being said. In Mary's soul, or her whole being, she magnifies or perceives the Lord as larger/greater (Sanctification), to His glory. While her spirit rejoices or was filled with joy concerning God her Saviour. In her soul existence the Lord is magnified, while in her spirit she rejoiced in God the Saviour of her soul (Lamentations 3:58; James 5:20). I believe that we all are one unit made up of three (purpose) components, which are the body, the soul and the spirit. The spirit is the animator of the soul, which connects it to the body. So is there a difference between soul and spirit? The answer is yes, albeit a fine distinction. We can see these illustrated as subtle difference in passages such as Hebrews chapter 4.

So, is this what you mean by soul?

So, my answer would be NO. The sin nature is the results of sin being imputed to them, thereby having sin in their soul, which causes them to love doing just about anything other than doing their religious duties toward God, like reading his word, praying and practicing what he commands us to do and this can be seen at such an early age in children.

The only different would be, that TIME has not yet given the opportunity to show it, because children in comparison to mature adults is a great gulf as far as the deed for wickedness being seen, and practiced. Children seem so innocent and they are in one sense, they just have not live long enough to bring out what is truly there in their hearts. As one old divine said, "be thankful they were born as small as they are, for if they could they would kill you when you begin to correct them and show them how they should live and do this and that!"

Wow. Too much RB and I think we agree.

Also, for the future, I almost missed this because you didn't tag me in.

 

[civic]

Ok. I guess that's why Sam doesn't mention Augustine that much in his Catholic talks. Augustine reminds him of his Calvinist days. Lol.

ya think lol

 

[Red Baker]

Did you do this study yourself??

It is a combination of many years of reading and searching the scriptures, reading behind other men, (Tony Warren was a great source of help) some more helpful than others, only a few seem to have a scriptural concept of this difficult subject, including myself and I'm still pondering the spirit of man, (though so very close connected with man's soul, that is is not easy to divide them) considering exactly what is meant, since it is clear, that a lost man's spirit and soul, are inactive at death, and the lost are in a state of unconsciousness until the last day when all that are in the graves shall come forth, including the wicked to be judge, and then cast into the lake of fire, (which will be this earth) where the wicked will be destroyed by fire which is the second death for them (the lost), at which time they shall eternally perish. The lake of fire being this world and all things therein.

2nd Peter 3:10​

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

 

[Red Baker]

Also, for the future, I almost missed this because you didn't tag me in.

What's the best way to tag a person in, to make sure they get it?

@GodsGrace is that it? Anything more I need to do?

 

[GodsGrace]

It is a combination of many years of reading and searching the scriptures, reading behind other men, (Tony Warren was a great source of help) some more helpful than others, only a few seem to have a scriptural concept of this difficult subject, including myself and I'm still pondering the spirit of man, (though so very close connected with man's soul, that is is not easy to divide them) considering exactly what is meant, since it is clear, that a lost man's spirit and soul, are inactive at death, and the lost are in a state of unconsciousness until the last day when all that are in the graves shall come forth, including the wicked to be judge, and then cast into the lake of fire, (which will be this earth) where the wicked will be destroyed by fire which is the second death for them (the lost), at which time they shall eternally perish. The lake of fire being this world and all things therein.

2nd Peter 3:10​

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

You believe in soul sleep RB.
I don't. I do believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Now,,,God can work this out however He wants to....but it seems to me that if we have a soul and spirit,
they likely will keep on living after death. I don't see a reason why God would want to give us a soul and then make it come alive
with our spirit (our connection to God)...then put them to sleep, and then rise them up again on the last day.

In Luke 15....Lazarus and the Rich Man....the believers were waiting in Abraham's bossom to be released from this place, by Jesus' sacrifice, and to be brought to heaven.

Many theologians believe this is not a parable but a true story because it's the only time Jesus used person's name.

Anyway, this is not something I care to debate.
A Christian person can believe what he will...I don't see any danger in believing this.

 

[GodsGrace]

What's the best way to tag a person in, to make sure they get it?

@GodsGrace is that it? Anything more I need to do?

You know the two ways....
One is to use the POST REPLY button at the lower right.

The other way is to use the @plus the name like you just did.

You probably just forgot for the other post and I just didn't want you to think
I was not answering you.