Do we have any Catholics here?

[MTMattie]

You believe in soul sleep RB.
I don't. I do believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
Now,,,God can work this out however He wants to....but it seems to me that if we have a soul and spirit,
they likely will keep on living after death. I don't see a reason why God would want to give us a soul and then make it come alive
with our spirit (our connection to God)...then put them to sleep, and then rise them up again on the last day.

In Luke 15....Lazarus and the Rich Man....the believers were waiting in Abraham's bossom to be released from this place, by Jesus' sacrifice, and to be brought to heaven.

Many theologians believe this is not a parable but a true story because it's the only time Jesus used person's name.

Anyway, this is not something I care to debate.
A Christian person can believe what he will...I don't see any danger in believing this.

Well said.

Always remember these scriptures. I always envision our spirits returning to God upon death. The soul I am working on.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”

Matt: 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well said.

Always remember these scriptures. I always envision our spirits returning to God upon death. The soul I am working on.

Ecclesiastes 12:7. “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it”

Matt: 10:28 “Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hi MT I can't remember if it was you that I posted to regarding the BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT.
I posted an image together with 1 Thessalonians 5:23 regarding this.

So the dust would be the body...it gets buried and returns to dust until the resurrection when we receive our
glorified body.

Eccl 12:7 states that the spirit returns to God, as indeed it does.

Then you posted Matt 10:28...
Note: The body can be killed...but not the soul.
BUT IN HELL both body and soul will be killed.

Why? Because the body goes returns to the earth.
The soul, which is what makes each one of us be ourself--our mind, will and emotions...must go to heaven.
The spirit, as you've stated, goes to heaven to be with God.

Think of this: If the soul is what makes each person be unique...then the soul MUST survive death.
We will recognize each other in heaven even before the resurrection.
Will not your relatives, friends, have their own unique qualities?
That will be the soul.

So the body dies.
The soul and spirit go to be with God.

I think that, eventually, you'll come to believe this.
It's mainline Christianity --- nothing strange.

 

[MTMattie]

Hi MT I can't remember if it was you that I posted to regarding the BODY, SOUL AND SPIRIT.
I posted an image together with 1 Thessalonians 5:23 regarding this.

So the dust would be the body...it gets buried and returns to dust until the resurrection when we receive our
glorified body.

Eccl 12:7 states that the spirit returns to God, as indeed it does.

Then you posted Matt 10:28...
Note: The body can be killed...but not the soul.
BUT IN HELL both body and soul will be killed.

Why? Because the body goes returns to the earth.
The soul, which is what makes each one of us be ourself--our mind, will and emotions...must go to heaven.
The spirit, as you've stated, goes to heaven to be with God.

Think of this: If the soul is what makes each person be unique...then the soul MUST survive death.
We will recognize each other in heaven even before the resurrection.
Will not your relatives, friends, have their own unique qualities?
That will be the soul.

So the body dies.
The soul and spirit go to be with God.

I think that, eventually, you'll come to believe this.
It's mainline Christianity --- nothing strange.

No problems here.

We all have a body that will either be gone or made into a new glorified one.

We all have a spirit, which will unite again with our glorified bodies .

And Our souls also will unite or be destroyed.

Many say our souls go with the body to the Lord. I have been studying that for a long time and not willing to accept that view yet.

I view us as We are spirits, we have a soul and we live in a body. Tripartite man.

The role of the spirit is easy. It allows us to communicate with God. It is through our spirits we have our spiritual rebirths.

Our soul is who we are and what we are. Genesis said God breathed life into Adam. He was given a soul. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The soul encompasses our mind, emotions, and will. It is the seat of our personality and the aspect of our being that experiences joy, sorrow, love, and fear. The soul is what makes us unique individuals with distinct thoughts, feelings, and desires.

The soul is also the battleground for spiritual warfare. Our thoughts and emotions can be influenced by both divine and demonic forces. Paul exhorts believers to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2 ), indicating that our mental and emotional states are crucial in our spiritual growth. The soul must be continually sanctified and aligned with God’s will through prayer, meditation on Scripture, and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, the soul is where our decisions are made. It is the will that chooses to follow God or to turn away. Joshua’s challenge to the Israelites, "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:15, NIV), underscores the soul’s role in making moral and spiritual choices. The soul is thus central to our accountability before God.

I am not to the point of saying that the soul rests with us when we die, but I feel confident in saying that to me, the sould does not go back to God who gave it, especially if at judgement the soul needs to be destroyed with the body. That seems to no make sense.

Now you know about the rich man and Lazarus who some say is a parable and other say it is real because in it Jesus used real names.

I think when the Lazarus was carried to "Abraham's" side of the chasm that that was where he would wait until final Judgement would come.

It is my believe that that is what is called Paradise and when Jesus said to the thief beside him I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise it is because aside from the fact that at that point no one (man) had seen the Father except the Son that that is where we all may wait until our judgement. NO... I AM NOT... Catholic and I do not believe in purgatory, but we all have been told that during his 3 days and nights in the tomb that Jesus went ... some say Hell others say he descended.. still other say, and I believe He did go to hades.

Why? Let me do a little copy and past of Got Questions who says this in much shorter words then I ever do...
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent of sheol is hades, which also refers to “the place of the dead.” The New Testament indicates that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11–15 makes a clear distinction between hades and the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades, then, is a temporary place. Many people refer to both hades and the lake of fire as “hell,” and this causes confusion. Jesus did not go to a place of torment after His death, but He did go to hades.

Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions—a place of blessing and a place of judgment (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27–31). The abodes of the saved and the lost are both generally called “hades” in the Bible. The abode of the saved is also called “Abraham’s bosom” (KJV) or “Abraham’s side” (NIV) in Luke 16:22 and “paradise” in Luke 23:43. The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus died, He went to the blessed side of sheol, or paradise. (Some believe, based on a particular interpretation of Ephesians 4:8–10, that Jesus took believers with Him from sheol to another place of bliss that we now call heaven. More likely, Ephesians 4 refers to the ascension of Christ.) All the unbelieving dead go to the cursed side of hades to await the final judgment. All the believing dead go to the blessed side of hades to await the resurrection. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Jesus’ own words, He went to the blessed region of sheol.

Some of the confusion has arisen from such passages as Psalm 16:10–11 as translated in the King James Version: “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. . . . Thou wilt show me the path of life.” “Hell” is not a correct translation in this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “sheol.” Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43); He did not say, “I will see you in hell.” Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to be with the blessed in sheol/hades.

So.... I said and posted all that to say I believe our souls will be on the happy side called Paradise or Sheol awaiting our final reward, and not on the side waiting their final termination cause remember Jesus said the Father could destroy the soul in hell.

(Back in the early 1990s I did a bible study and back then I knew more about Sheol and Hades then anyone ever want to. LOL

 

[Red Baker]

You believe in soul sleep RB.

Not for believers ~ they NOW possess eternal life and cannot die in the true sense of those word, impossible.

Maybe more on this later.

I do believe that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Amen, 2nd Corinthians 5~ Paul said he had a desire to depart and to be with Christ, (Jesus is not sleeping!) which is what takes place at death of our body for all believers.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not for believers ~ they NOW possess eternal life and cannot die in the true sense of those word, impossible.

Maybe more on this later.

Amen, 2nd Corinthians 5~ Paul said he had a desire to depart and to be with Christ, (Jesus is not sleeping!) which is what takes place at death of our body for all believers.

Do you believe in soul sleep for unbelievers?
Not sure I understood....
But for now...too tired.
I still owe you 2 posts but tomorrow morning.

 

[Red Baker]

Do you believe in soul sleep for unbelievers?

What I do believe the scriptures plainly teach concerning the lost is that they do not possess eternal life in "any sense whatsoever"!

Revelation 20:5​

“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

Some Premillennial Theologians use this verse as support for the idea that there are at least two physical resurrections with a literal earthly millennial reign in between. However, scripture clearly teaches "one" future resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28-29

• "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
• And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This is the second Resurrection (not the first in Christ) and this is what is described in Revelation 20:12. The First resurrection is in Christ. This verse of Revelation is conclusive proof that this is speaking about the souls of those martyred who were Saved, and who died physically as it's contrasted against the souls of "the rest of the dead" (the unsaved, who died physically). As believers in Christ those martyred, in their souls go immediately to live and reign with Christ after they die. They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

• "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it".

2nd Corinthians 5:8

• "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord".

When believers leave this body to dust, our spirits go to be with the Lord. But the rest of the dead, they lived not until after this present millennial reign. These unsaved weren't raised up from death to new life in the first Resurrection in Christ, therefore they cannot go to live and reign with Christ after death. That is the contrast here. In other words, they had no part in the First Resurrection with Christ! And so when they died, they don't live until raised at "The last day" to stand for judgment. That will be the Second Resurrection. Again, spoken of as, "after the thousand years" (indicating once again that it is not to be taken as literally a thousand, because the rest of the dead die at all different times). Lets take a look at what it says here, and what is meant by it.
1st Resurrection:

Every single believer who has been raised up in Christ to new life, hath part in this 1st resurrection. Remember the scriptures talk of Christ as the "FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD." If that's not the 1st Resurrection from the dead, the new birth in Christ, then nothing is. He is the Resurrection as He told Martha, and all those raised WITH HIM hath part in that first Resurrection. They are the Church of the firstborn. On these, the second death hath no power. Of course not, for they never die again! ..He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

2nd Resurrection:

The second coming, at the last trumpet, at the last day, when we that are alive will be raised up to meet Jesus in the air, and Judgment day when the rest of the dead (unsaved who have died) are all are raised up to stand for Judgment.

1st Death:

The death in Adam which all of mankind has suffered and which if they are not resurrected in Christ from that death, they shall suffer the judgement in the second resurrection.

2nd Death:

The Judgment that is meted out By GOD upon the unrighteous. HELL! There shall be weeping and grinding of teeth! This is the death that the wages of sin brings forth. It's punishment. The 1st Resurrection (Those raised in Christ) have no need to worry about this, as the power of the Cross of Christ (1st Resurrection) has taken away the sting of death.

We see these thousand years are different for each group, and cannot logically or rationally be the same thousand years if that means literally a thousand. Simply put, verse five tells us that the rest of the dead, those who weren't Saved by having part in Christ's Resurrection (The First) remained dead, and they didn't live again until after the thousand years. That's not speculation, that's what the scriptures clearly say. And after the fullness of God's purpose, which is a different length of time for each of the dead, then they will be raised to stand for Judgment. Those who make the claim that the first Resurrection is not in Christ are contradicting God's Word. God tells us point blank that Christ is the First Resurrection. And he who hath an ear, let him hear and receive it.
Acts 26:23

• "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the First Resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles".

So then, who are we going to believe, God or man? His interpretation, or our own? So there should be no debate but that Christ's raising from the dead is the 'First Resurrection,' according to God's Word. This is not an interpretation, or my spin on it, it's a direct unadulterated "Quote." That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the 'First Resurrection' from the dead. And we, raised up in him have part in that First Resurrection. We are the Church of the Firstborn from the dead.
Colossians 1:18

• "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence".

Hebrews 12:23

• "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"

These are the souls of believers, the First Resurrection, upon which the second death has no power, they live, while the unsaved dead do not. It all fits when the thousand years is not forced to mean something God never intended it to mean. It will never fit when it's forced to mean literally a thousand years. The ones raised up in Christ lived and reigned with him through the thousand years as the Church is being built, but the "rest" of the dead (Unsaved dead) didn't live Again until after the thousand years, when Christ returns to rapture his Church and raise these dead to stand for Judgment.

Remember what the "souls" of those under the altar cried in Revelation 6:10, and Remember God's reply to them? His reply was that they should rest for a season, for there were more people to be martyred. You see, these are the "souls" reigning a thousand years in heaven, not "men" reigning on earth with Christ in a earthly city jerusalem as some Theologians surmise. Christians who have died (physically) and gone to heaven, yet living and Reigning with Christ in their souls existence! God will not Judge till the fullness of His martyrs have come in. He will not loose the judgment of Satan till His set time. Not until His Church is come to the full. This is the marvelous truth of God's Word. And the sad contradiction to those who try and make these souls of 1000 years speak of a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on this sin cursed earth with men.

Symbolism:
Rest of the Dead = the unsaved who have died
First Resurrection = Christ, and all raised up with Him!

 

[MTMattie]

What I do believe the scriptures plainly teach concerning the lost is that they do not possess eternal life in "any sense whatsoever"!

Revelation 20:5​

“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

Some Premillennial Theologians use this verse as support for the idea that there are at least two physical resurrections with a literal earthly millennial reign in between. However, scripture clearly teaches "one" future resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. exhibit A:
John 5:28-29

• "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
• And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This is the second Resurrection (not the first in Christ) and this is what is described in Revelation 20:12. The First resurrection is in Christ. This verse of Revelation is conclusive proof that this is speaking about the souls of those martyred who were Saved, and who died physically as it's contrasted against the souls of "the rest of the dead" (the unsaved, who died physically). As believers in Christ those martyred, in their souls go immediately to live and reign with Christ after they die. They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

• "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it".

2nd Corinthians 5:8

• "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord".

When believers leave this body to dust, our spirits go to be with the Lord. But the rest of the dead, they lived not until after this present millennial reign. These unsaved weren't raised up from death to new life in the first Resurrection in Christ, therefore they cannot go to live and reign with Christ after death. That is the contrast here. In other words, they had no part in the First Resurrection with Christ! And so when they died, they don't live until raised at "The last day" to stand for judgment. That will be the Second Resurrection. Again, spoken of as, "after the thousand years" (indicating once again that it is not to be taken as literally a thousand, because the rest of the dead die at all different times). Lets take a look at what it says here, and what is meant by it.
1st Resurrection:

2nd Resurrection:

1st Death:

2nd Death:

We see these thousand years are different for each group, and cannot logically or rationally be the same thousand years if that means literally a thousand. Simply put, verse five tells us that the rest of the dead, those who weren't Saved by having part in Christ's Resurrection (The First) remained dead, and they didn't live again until after the thousand years. That's not speculation, that's what the scriptures clearly say. And after the fullness of God's purpose, which is a different length of time for each of the dead, then they will be raised to stand for Judgment. Those who make the claim that the first Resurrection is not in Christ are contradicting God's Word. God tells us point blank that Christ is the First Resurrection. And he who hath an ear, let him hear and receive it.
Acts 26:23

• "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the First Resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles".

So then, who are we going to believe, God or man? His interpretation, or our own? So there should be no debate but that Christ's raising from the dead is the 'First Resurrection,' according to God's Word. This is not an interpretation, or my spin on it, it's a direct unadulterated "Quote." That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the 'First Resurrection' from the dead. And we, raised up in him have part in that First Resurrection. We are the Church of the Firstborn from the dead.
Colossians 1:18

• "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence".

Hebrews 12:23

• "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"

These are the souls of believers, the First Resurrection, upon which the second death has no power, they live, while the unsaved dead do not. It all fits when the thousand years is not forced to mean something God never intended it to mean. It will never fit when it's forced to mean literally a thousand years. The ones raised up in Christ lived and reigned with him through the thousand years as the Church is being built, but the "rest" of the dead (Unsaved dead) didn't live Again until after the thousand years, when Christ returns to rapture his Church and raise these dead to stand for Judgment.

Remember what the "souls" of those under the altar cried in Revelation 6:10, and Remember God's reply to them? His reply was that they should rest for a season, for there were more people to be martyred. You see, these are the "souls" reigning a thousand years in heaven, not "men" reigning on earth with Christ in a earthly city jerusalem as some Theologians surmise. Christians who have died (physically) and gone to heaven, yet living and Reigning with Christ in their souls existence! God will not Judge till the fullness of His martyrs have come in. He will not loose the judgment of Satan till His set time. Not until His Church is come to the full. This is the marvelous truth of God's Word. And the sad contradiction to those who try and make these souls of 1000 years speak of a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on this sin cursed earth with men.

Symbolism:
Rest of the Dead = the unsaved who have died
First Resurrection = Christ, and all raised up with Him!

Thank you @Red Baker . You spoke it clearly

They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

But... a few questions please that I have struggled with.

If unbelievers dont live again until the second resurrection. (I assume also their judgement)... then when Jesus spoke to the rich man about the beggar Lazarus across the great divide... Who was He talking to? I do not believe this to have been a parable because this is one time Jesus used Lazarus' real name. ( Parables are generalized) The rich man knew enough to talk about thirst and his brothers. I had always assumed he was unsaved and already in hell.

What is your opinion, please, of where and what is/was PARADISE? Abraham's bosom?

I assume it to be Abraham's bosom but many say it is heaven. Others the 4th heaven?

Now... last, I promise.

Jesus descended at some point during his 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb.

This was to liberate those who had not ascended until after He would ascend and sit on the right hand of the Father. IS THAT RIGHT?

Since after the tomb was discovered empty and Jesus did appear to others... and according to Luke His ascension was 40 days after His resurrection (Pentecost)... When did the liberated souls actually go to heaven? (Remember, no one had seen the Father or Gone to Heaven except Jesus and no one would until He was up there) (I still have a problem of those resurrected saints in Matt 27:51-53.. especially since not all the saints came out of their graves)

Thanks and blessing.

 

[Red Baker]

If unbelievers dont live again until the second resurrection. (I assume also their judgement)... then when Jesus spoke to the rich man about the beggar Lazarus across the great divide... Who was He talking to? I do not believe this to have been a parable because this is one time Jesus used Lazarus' real name. ( Parables are generalized) The rich man knew enough to talk about thirst and his brothers. I had always assumed he was unsaved and already in hell.

What is your opinion, please, of where and what is/was PARADISE? Abraham's bosom?

I assume it to be Abraham's bosom but many say it is heaven. Others the 4th heaven?

Can you find us a thread we can discuss this in, or, do think it's okay to do so here, I do not care, but then again, I want to do what is proper and right?

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you @Red Baker . You spoke it clearly

They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

But... a few questions please that I have struggled with.

If unbelievers dont live again until the second resurrection. (I assume also their judgement)... then when Jesus spoke to the rich man about the beggar Lazarus across the great divide... Who was He talking to? I do not believe this to have been a parable because this is one time Jesus used Lazarus' real name. ( Parables are generalized) The rich man knew enough to talk about thirst and his brothers. I had always assumed he was unsaved and already in hell.

What is your opinion, please, of where and what is/was PARADISE? Abraham's bosom?

I assume it to be Abraham's bosom but many say it is heaven. Others the 4th heaven?

You're asking @Red Baker so I will only reply to the above since the answer is absolutely accepted by all Christians....
Paradise is Hades.
Abraham's Bossom is Paradise/Hades.
Same place.

I leave the rest for RB although I, of course, know the answers.

I do find it rather amazing how we have differing opinions.
This is not what Jesus wanted....He wanted His followers to be of one mind.
But, I suppose, that's a different topic.

Now... last, I promise.

Jesus descended at some point during his 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb.

This was to liberate those who had not ascended until after He would ascend and sit on the right hand of the Father. IS THAT RIGHT?

Since after the tomb was discovered empty and Jesus did appear to others... and according to Luke His ascension was 40 days after His resurrection (Pentecost)... When did the liberated souls actually go to heaven? (Remember, no one had seen the Father or Gone to Heaven except Jesus and no one would until He was up there) (I still have a problem of those resurrected saints in Matt 27:51-53.. especially since not all the saints came out of their graves)

Thanks and blessing.

 

[MTMattie]

You're asking @Red Baker so I will only reply to the above since the answer is absolutely accepted by all Christians....
Paradise is Hades.
Abraham's Bossom is Paradise/Hades.
Same place.

I leave the rest for RB although I, of course, know the answers.

I do find it rather amazing how we have differing opinions.
This is not what Jesus wanted....He wanted His followers to be of one mind.
But, I suppose, that's a different topic.

@GodsGrace New thread at https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/forums/the-bible.2/

 

[MTMattie]

Can you find us a thread we can discuss this in, or, do think it's okay to do so here, I do not care, but then again, I want to do what is proper and right?

Done @Red Baker New thread at https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/forums/the-bible.2/

 

[GodsGrace]

No problems here.

We all have a body that will either be gone or made into a new glorified one.

We all have a spirit, which will unite again with our glorified bodies .

And Our souls also will unite or be destroyed.

I think of the soul and the spirit being together.
IF a person is born again, he has a soul AND A SPIRIT.
Wherever they go...they will go together.

IF a person is NOT born again...he has only a soul.
That soul will go wherever it has to go...

UNTIL
the resurrection at the end times...
then EITHER the 3 get reunited in the glorified body unto eternal life.

OR
The 2 get reunited in the glorified body...but in this case to damnation.

Many say our souls go with the body to the Lord. I have been studying that for a long time and not willing to accept that view yet.

Of course our souls go with the body in the final resurrection of be with the Lord.
I think I've already posted this....
The soul is what lets us be us individually.

It's only THE SPIRIT that is ONLY with the born again that is different.
The unsaved do not have the SPIRIT...only the saved.

I view us as We are spirits, we have a soul and we live in a body. Tripartite man.

I also believe in the triparte man.
But let's be clear....
Even those that believe in a dichotomy of man (only 2 parts for those reading along)
they ALSO say that man has 3 parts BODY SOUL SPIRIT
It's just that they put together the soul and the spirit.
SO...IN EFFECT...they also believe in 3 parts --- but described differently.

Trichotomy makes much more sense.

The role of the spirit is easy. It allows us to communicate with God. It is through our spirits we have our spiritual rebirths.

Agreed.

Our soul is who we are and what we are. Genesis said God breathed life into Adam. He was given a soul. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Agreed...except let me say that Adam also had the SPIRIT in him.
God breathed life into Adam...he became a real and living person.
But we should understand that both soul and spirit were breathed into Adam.

He then went on to lose the spirit part of his being.

The soul encompasses our mind, emotions, and will. It is the seat of our personality and the aspect of our being that experiences joy, sorrow, love, and fear. The soul is what makes us unique individuals with distinct thoughts, feelings, and desires.

Right.
Have you ever considered that even animals have souls?
Not to get off the subject....

The soul is also the battleground for spiritual warfare. Our thoughts and emotions can be influenced by both divine and demonic forces. Paul exhorts believers to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2 ), indicating that our mental and emotional states are crucial in our spiritual growth. The soul must be continually sanctified and aligned with God’s will through prayer, meditation on Scripture, and the work of the Holy Spirit.

Amen. You have a really good understanding of the MT...
I don't understand what it is that you seem to doubt.

Furthermore, the soul is where our decisions are made. It is the will that chooses to follow God or to turn away. Joshua’s challenge to the Israelites, "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:15, NIV), underscores the soul’s role in making moral and spiritual choices. The soul is thus central to our accountability before God.

Agreed again.

I am not to the point of saying that the soul rests with us when we die, but I feel confident in saying that to me, the sould does not go back to God who gave it, especially if at judgement the soul needs to be destroyed with the body. That seems to no make sense.

Where do you think the soul goes when we die??
We either have a soul or not.
It either lives or not.

Do you believe in soul sleep for the unsaved?

THE BELIEVER WHEN HE DIES:
BODY GOES TO THE GRAVE....THE DIRT
SOUL AND SPIRIT GO TO BE WITH GOD.
AT RESURRECTION ALL 3 ARE UNITED IN THE GLORIOUS BODY.

THE UNBELIVER WHEN HE DIES:
BODY GOES TO THE GRAVE...THE DIRT
SOUL GOES TO BE WHERE IT BELONGS....I GUESS HELL.
AT RESURRECTION ALL 2 ARE UNITED AND SENT TO THE LAKE OF FIRE, OR HELL (depending how one understands this).

Now you know about the rich man and Lazarus who some say is a parable and other say it is real because in it Jesus used real names.

I think when the Lazarus was carried to "Abraham's" side of the chasm that that was where he would wait until final Judgement would come.

Lazarus and the Rich Man is not a parable.
It was hades,,,paradise.
But what was being awaited was the death of Jesus when the curtain was torn:

Matthew 27:51
51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

The barrier to God was destroyed.
Now everyone had direct access and there was no longer a need for a High Priest.
The gates of heaven were open and those awaiting could enter into their final resting place.

It is my believe that that is what is called Paradise and when Jesus said to the thief beside him I tell you today you will be with me in Paradise it is because aside from the fact that at that point no one (man) had seen the Father except the Son that that is where we all may wait until our judgement.

Yes. I think I said the same...I think you're agreeing here.

NO... I AM NOT... Catholic View attachment 1455 and I do not believe in purgatory, but we all have been told that during his 3 days and nights in the tomb that Jesus went ... some say Hell others say he descended.. still other say, and I believe He did go to hades.

I agree.

Why? Let me do a little copy and past of Got Questions who says this in much shorter words then I ever do...
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent of sheol is hades, which also refers to “the place of the dead.” The New Testament indicates that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11–15 makes a clear distinction between hades and the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades, then, is a temporary place. Many people refer to both hades and the lake of fire as “hell,” and this causes confusion. Jesus did not go to a place of torment after His death, but He did go to hades.

I agree....except that hades/paradise no longer exists.
Jesus opened the gates of heaven and now those who were awaiting are now in heaven and when someone dies now he goes straight to heaven.
If you look this up and find something...I'd be interested in knowing about it.
I learned this from two different denominations and it does seem to make perfect sense.

Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions—a place of blessing and a place of judgment (Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27–31). The abodes of the saved and the lost are both generally called “hades” in the Bible. The abode of the saved is also called “Abraham’s bosom” (KJV) or “Abraham’s side” (NIV) in Luke 16:22 and “paradise” in Luke 23:43. The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus died, He went to the blessed side of sheol, or paradise. (Some believe, based on a particular interpretation of Ephesians 4:8–10, that Jesus took believers with Him from sheol to another place of bliss that we now call heaven.

OK... there you have it. Yes...I agree with all of the above.

More likely, Ephesians 4 refers to the ascension of Christ.) All the unbelieving dead go to the cursed side of hades to await the final judgment. All the believing dead go to the blessed side of hades to await the resurrection. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Jesus’ own words, He went to the blessed region of sheol.

I believe that those that were in Abraham's Bossom went to heaven after Jesus' death....as GotQuestions stated above.

Some of the confusion has arisen from such passages as Psalm 16:10–11 as translated in the King James Version: “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. . . . Thou wilt show me the path of life.” “Hell” is not a correct translation in this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “sheol.” Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43); He did not say, “I will see you in hell.” Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to be with the blessed in sheol/hades.

Agreed.

So.... I said and posted all that to say I believe our souls will be on the happy side called Paradise or Sheol awaiting our final reward, and not on the side waiting their final termination cause remember Jesus said the Father could destroy the soul in hell.

(Back in the early 1990s I did a bible study and back then I knew more about Sheol and Hades then anyone ever want to. LOL

My belief, and which is expressed also by QQ...is that hades no longer exists after Jesus' death.
He took the ones from Abraham's bossom to heaven...
the lost went to hell...

And so it is with those that die now..either the saved to heaven or the lost to hell.

 

[GodsGrace]

What I do believe the scriptures plainly teach concerning the lost is that they do not possess eternal life in "any sense whatsoever"!

Revelation 20:5​

“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

Eternal life means living forever.
All humans have a soul that lives forever.
If they have only a soul, then it means they're going to hell.
If they have a soul and a spirit, then they're going to heaven.

But in each case life is eternal...which just means forever.

Also, I don't believe we can use Revelation to create doctrine UNLESS of course it agrees with the rest of scripture.
So which scripture states that the unsaved completely die at death?

This would make no sense in light of Paul stating that we die once and then comes the judgment.
We go directly to be where we're supposed to be at death.

Some Premillennial Theologians use this verse as support for the idea that there are at least two physical resurrections with a literal earthly millennial reign in between. However, scripture clearly teaches "one" future resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28-29

• "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
• And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

I don't know about eschatology but there will be one resurrection at the end of time.
John 5:28-29 just states that at the end the dead will come BODILY forward (the resurrection) and will be judged....this will be the final judgment...
the saved go to the white throne judgment only.

This is the second Resurrection (not the first in Christ) and this is what is described in Revelation 20:12. The First resurrection is in Christ. This verse of Revelation is conclusive proof that this is speaking about the souls of those martyred who were Saved, and who died physically as it's contrasted against the souls of "the rest of the dead" (the unsaved, who died physically).

It might just be talking of the martyred.
I'm not venturing into unknown territory....
I do know that there will only be one resurrection and I'd have to see scripture from the teaching of
Jesus or Paul in the NT.

As believers in Christ those martyred, in their souls go immediately to live and reign with Christ after they die. They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

Are you saying that the BODIES of those martyred are in heaven and not in a grave somewhere?
IF yes....then I guess we could also believe that Mary was assumed into heaven bodily.

• "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it".

Right.
When we die the body goes to the grave and becomes dirt again.
Our spirit goes to be with God together with our soul.
Man is a trichotomy BODY SOUL SPIRIT (if born again - otherwise only BODY SOUL)

2nd Corinthians 5:8

• "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord".

Right. 2 Cor 5:8 as soon as we die we go to be with the Lord (if saved).

Are you saying this is the first resurrection and when we get our glorified bodies it's the second resurrection?

When believers leave this body to dust, our spirits go to be with the Lord. But the rest of the dead, they lived not until after this present millennial reign. These unsaved weren't raised up from death to new life in the first Resurrection in Christ, therefore they cannot go to live and reign with Christ after death.

Right. But they go where they're supposed to be....in hell.

That is the contrast here. In other words, they had no part in the First Resurrection with Christ! And so when they died, they don't live until raised at "The last day" to stand for judgment. That will be the Second Resurrection. Again, spoken of as, "after the thousand years" (indicating once again that it is not to be taken as literally a thousand, because the rest of the dead die at all different times). Lets take a look at what it says here, and what is meant by it.
1st Resurrection:

2nd Resurrection:

1st Death:

2nd Death:

We see these thousand years are different for each group, and cannot logically or rationally be the same thousand years if that means literally a thousand. Simply put, verse five tells us that the rest of the dead, those who weren't Saved by having part in Christ's Resurrection (The First) remained dead, and they didn't live again until after the thousand years. That's not speculation, that's what the scriptures clearly say. And after the fullness of God's purpose, which is a different length of time for each of the dead, then they will be raised to stand for Judgment. Those who make the claim that the first Resurrection is not in Christ are contradicting God's Word. God tells us point blank that Christ is the First Resurrection. And he who hath an ear, let him hear and receive it.
Acts 26:23

• "That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the First Resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles".

Jesus is the FIRST RESURRECTION because He obtained His glorified body just as we will.
He is the first in that sense...
but there will only be one resurrection when ALL BODIES will come out of the dirt/grave to either eternal life or eternal wrath/damnation.
John 5:28-29

So then, who are we going to believe, God or man? His interpretation, or our own? So there should be no debate but that Christ's raising from the dead is the 'First Resurrection,' according to God's Word. This is not an interpretation, or my spin on it, it's a direct unadulterated "Quote." That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the 'First Resurrection' from the dead. And we, raised up in him have part in that First Resurrection. We are the Church of the Firstborn from the dead.
Colossians 1:18

• "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence".

Hebrews 12:23

• "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"

I gave my POV on the above.
I must say that I don't come to my own conclusions.
I've attended and learned from 3 different denominations and none of them believes in two resurrections.

These are the souls of believers, the First Resurrection, upon which the second death has no power, they live, while the unsaved dead do not. It all fits when the thousand years is not forced to mean something God never intended it to mean. It will never fit when it's forced to mean literally a thousand years. The ones raised up in Christ lived and reigned with him through the thousand years as the Church is being built, but the "rest" of the dead (Unsaved dead) didn't live Again until after the thousand years, when Christ returns to rapture his Church and raise these dead to stand for Judgment.

Remember what the "souls" of those under the altar cried in Revelation 6:10, and Remember God's reply to them? His reply was that they should rest for a season, for there were more people to be martyred. You see, these are the "souls" reigning a thousand years in heaven, not "men" reigning on earth with Christ in a earthly city jerusalem as some Theologians surmise. Christians who have died (physically) and gone to heaven, yet living and Reigning with Christ in their souls existence! God will not Judge till the fullness of His martyrs have come in. He will not loose the judgment of Satan till His set time. Not until His Church is come to the full. This is the marvelous truth of God's Word. And the sad contradiction to those who try and make these souls of 1000 years speak of a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on this sin cursed earth with men.

Symbolism:
Rest of the Dead = the unsaved who have died
First Resurrection = Christ, and all raised up with Him!

Again...Revelation has TOO MUCH symbolism and unless you could show this from the NT writings,,,,
I'm going to just believe it's incorrect.

Not that this topic interests me all that much.

 

[ProDeo]

Wow Red Baker....
Actually @synergy is asking a question that is not easy to answer
and which doesn't really have an answer.

Here it is again:
Why did Adam sin if the sin nature, caused by sin, had not entered into the world yet?

See. It's a vicious circle.
If you think you know the answer...let us have it.

Great (unanswerable?) question.

What if we had the same chance as A&E, would we have done better?

Maybe (in this case) the question is more important than the possible answer(s)?

Any philosophers ?

 

[ProDeo]

Thank you @Red Baker . You spoke it clearly

They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7

But... a few questions please that I have struggled with.

If unbelievers dont live again until the second resurrection. (I assume also their judgement)... then when Jesus spoke to the rich man about the beggar Lazarus across the great divide... Who was He talking to? I do not believe this to have been a parable because this is one time Jesus used Lazarus' real name. ( Parables are generalized) The rich man knew enough to talk about thirst and his brothers. I had always assumed he was unsaved and already in hell.

What is your opinion, please, of where and what is/was PARADISE? Abraham's bosom?

I assume it to be Abraham's bosom but many say it is heaven. Others the 4th heaven?

Now... last, I promise.

Jesus descended at some point during his 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb.

This was to liberate those who had not ascended until after He would ascend and sit on the right hand of the Father. IS THAT RIGHT?

Since after the tomb was discovered empty and Jesus did appear to others... and according to Luke His ascension was 40 days after His resurrection (Pentecost)... When did the liberated souls actually go to heaven? (Remember, no one had seen the Father or Gone to Heaven except Jesus and no one would until He was up there) (I still have a problem of those resurrected saints in Matt 27:51-53.. especially since not all the saints came out of their graves)

Thanks and blessing.

My take -

First of all I read in context, the whole chapter 16, verse 1 starts with The Parable of the Dishonest Manager, the parable ends with -

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”

Followed by verse 14, the context -

Luke 16:14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.

We can already see the connection, The Pharisees felt attacked (You cannot serve God and money) and sadly they ridiculed Him. And Jesus ridiculed The Pharisees in return with the parable of Rich Man and Poor Man. Theme money and the false beliefs of the The Pharisees. In the parable the rich man stands for The Pharisees.

The false beliefs of The Pharisees -

1. The Bosom of Abraham - it's nowhere in the OT, during the absence of prophets from God for centuries they made that up, look at the development of that false belief on the WIKI.

2. Secondly the description of Hades comes rightly from pagan Greek mythology, another false belief that entered during the absence of prophets from God for centuries.

And so Jesus ridiculed The Pharisees in return, them ending up in their own false beliefs.

 

[GodsGrace]

Great (unanswerable?) question.

What if we had the same chance as A&E, would we have done better?

Maybe (in this case) the question is more important than the possible answer(s)?

Any philosophers ?

I'm not much of a philosopher...I like to leave that to Wm. Lane Craig!
He's my favorite.

I don't think we would have done better.
Somewhere along the line, someone would have failed...
even if it wasn't the first two.

I believe that if God made us as perfect as He is then we would be like
little gods. He gave us some of His attributes, but being a little god is not one of them.

So, eventually we would have fallen for the guiles of the evil one.
For one reason or another. ... even if we understood the consequences,,,I think.
Look at the way even we Christians fall into sin...we wouldn't have held out for long.

What do you think?

 

[ProDeo]

I'm not much of a philosopher...I like to leave that to Wm. Lane Craig!
He's my favorite.

Yep, same here.

So, eventually we would have fallen for the guiles of the evil one.
For one reason or another. ... even if we understood the consequences,,,I think.
Look at the way even we Christians fall into sin...we wouldn't have held out for long.

What do you think?

What do I think, ha ha... well, allow me to make it more complicated

While God knew everything on beforehand, see my other post, why did God allow the devil to tempt A&E ?

One more, why did God not throw the devil immediately into the lake of fire, but allowed him power (although on a leash) instead ?

As you may noticed, my head is a scary place

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep, same here.


What do I think, ha ha... well, allow me to make it more complicated

While God knew everything on beforehand, see my other post, why did God allow the devil to tempt A&E ?

One more, why did God not throw the devil immediately into the lake of fire, but allowed him power (although on a leash) instead ?

As you may noticed, my head is a scary place

No. You're good ProDeo.
Look at your name...you can't be too bad!

Yes. You do like to ask the unanswerable questions!
Theodicy. It's a problem...

 

[ProDeo]

No. You're good ProDeo.
Look at your name...you can't be too bad!

Yes. You do like to ask the unanswerable questions!
Theodicy. It's a problem...

Nescio !

More Latin

 

[GodsGrace]

Nescio !

More Latin

Help!
What's Nescio?

In my DIALECT, yes I also have a dialect, nescio means I get out from.
But I doubt it means that....