Data on John 1:1

[Johann]

There are not too many Scriptures teaching the trinity. Not even 1 record where a paragraph or a chapter or two has taught it. Every verse that you quote from bits and pieces that are scattered all over the Bible can be understood in the context they are written in or how the word was used in their culture or understanding the bad translations and there are many of them since the Catholics have been translating biblical data for a very long time. I could comment on 1 verse at a time if you would enjoy posting 1. I cannot comment on 15.

For every verse I provide in context, you would rather seem to counter with a rebuttal. I understand this is a longstanding debate, but my mind is firmly made up on this matter.

I’m not here to force you to believe as I do, but I find that the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures are filled with evidence of the Triune Godhead.

Having listened to hundreds of debates between Rabbis, I'm well-acquainted with the customs and perspectives of the East. Your claim that there aren't many Scriptures teaching the Triune Godhead is, in my view, inaccurate.

Take time to review all the relevant clips and verses-there are plenty to consider. Then, if you're able, feel free to respond, brother.

I will respond if you are sincere and willing to hear me out

J.

 

[mikesw]

For every verse I provide in context, you would rather seem to counter with a rebuttal. I understand this is a longstanding debate, but my mind is firmly made up on this matter.

I’m not here to force you to believe as I do, but I find that the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures are filled with evidence of the Triune Godhead.

Having listened to hundreds of debates between Rabbis, I'm well-acquainted with the customs and perspectives of the East. Your claim that there aren't many Scriptures teaching the Triune Godhead is, in my view, inaccurate.

Take time to review all the relevant clips and verses-there are plenty to consider. Then, if you're able, feel free to respond, brother.

I will respond if you are sincere and willing to hear me out

J.

Peterlag's complaint is that he wants a passage or letter that says word for word "God exists in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost while they are all just God coexisting within himself." Since it is not at that level, he denies who God is.

 

[Johann]

Peterlag's complaint is that he wants a passage or letter that says word for word "God exists in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost while they are all just God coexisting within himself." Since it is not at that level, he denies who God is.

Many here who are in denial of the Deity of Christ Jesus @mikesw and we are in the last times.

Personally, he is "lagging" behind and not willing to study the Scriptures and needs to be spoon fed-the factual, biblical evidence is right in front of his eyes and I am not the one to "open" the eyes of his understanding.

I will go the extra mile to those who are sincere and not devious in their questions, other words, just plant seeds and go on.

J.

 

[mikesw]

Many here who are in denial of the Deity of Christ Jesus @mikesw and we are in the last times.

Personally, he is "lagging" behind and not willing to study the Scriptures and needs to be spoon fed-the factual, biblical evidence is right in front of his eyes and I am not the one to "open" the eyes of his understanding.

I will go the extra mile to those who are sincere and not devious in their questions, other words, just plant seeds and go on.

J.

Right now we have dyed in the wool Unitarian advocates. They are impervious to the testimony of scripture. So they are not seeing if there is an argument against their beliefs.

 

[Johann]

Right now we have dyed in the wool Unitarian advocates. They are impervious to the testimony of scripture. So they are not seeing if there is an argument against their beliefs.

This morning, I realized that on this forum-and on another Christian forum as well-the doctrine of the Triune Godhead is actually banned, permanently-not here. Can you believe it? As you rightly pointed out, they seem entirely closed off to the testimony of Scripture on this.

At least here we have freedom of speech to STAND for what we believe is the truth. Glad to be back in the saddle brother.

J.

 

[mikesw]

This morning, I realized that on this forum-and on another Christian forum as well-the doctrine of the Triune Godhead is actually banned, permanently-not here. Can you believe it? As you rightly pointed out, they seem entirely closed off to the testimony of Scripture on this.

At least here we have freedom of speech to STAND for what we believe is the truth. Glad to be back in the saddle brother.

J.

Good you are sharing some stuff. Sometimes i get some good stuff from the defenders of truth and sometime I look up material as my responses. It gives me broader understanding of the Trinity. But that is crazy to have a "Christian" forum blocking discussion on the Trinity.

 

[Johann]

Good you are sharing some stuff. Sometimes i get some good stuff from the defenders of truth and sometime I look up material as my responses. It gives me broader understanding of the Trinity. But that is crazy to have a "Christian" forum blocking discussion on the Trinity.

Yesterday, on CF- I was blocked for sharing John 1:1 and speaking on the deity of Jesus Christ, even though I didn’t mention the Trinity. A moderator went after me, and unfortunately, I ended up responding in frustration and told her off.

Again, glad to be here.

J.

 

[mikesw]

Yesterday, on CF- I was blocked for sharing John 1:1 and speaking on the deity of Jesus Christ, even though I didn’t mention the Trinity. A moderator went after me, and unfortunately, I ended up responding in frustration and told her off.

Again, glad to be here.

J.

Is the forum then trying to block the testimony of scripture regarding the Trinity so that they can get more unity of the people chatting there?

Of course this site favors people of different views to discuss the views freely as part of open discussion for apologetics objectives and perchance some will change over to acceptance of Christ and faithful doctrines. This site then is more open than just about any other one. But for another chat site to restrict against sharing orthodox views is crazy. I think we are in the era of deception of Revelation 20:7-10, even if few people see it that way.

 

[Johann]

Is the forum then trying to block the testimony of scripture regarding the Trinity so that they can get more unity of the people chatting there?

Exactly-birds of a feather flock together, and there’s an intense pushback against the God-breathed Scriptures there as well.

I won't go back and there are members there that's here-need I say more?

J.

 

[mikesw]

Exactly-birds of a feather flock together, and there’s an intense pushback against the God-breathed Scriptures there as well.

I won't go back and there are members there that's here-need I say more?

J.

I even tried a thread where people accept the divinity of Christ in the Godhead but not in the Trinity sense. I thought some might have had that view. I could understand someone finding some sort of variation of Christ's divinity but no one answered. But, I think there is a modalist here -- just hard to understand what he is saying.
If you are interested, I share that Paul's point in Gal 3:19-20 relies on the gentiles recognizing Christ in the Godhead
#link gal-3-19-20-solved-by-the-shema-in-light-of-christs-divinity.1593/
(I'm hoping my summary of the idea makes sense. )

 

[Peterlag]

For every verse I provide in context, you would rather seem to counter with a rebuttal. I understand this is a longstanding debate, but my mind is firmly made up on this matter.

I’m not here to force you to believe as I do, but I find that the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures are filled with evidence of the Triune Godhead.

Having listened to hundreds of debates between Rabbis, I'm well-acquainted with the customs and perspectives of the East. Your claim that there aren't many Scriptures teaching the Triune Godhead is, in my view, inaccurate.

Take time to review all the relevant clips and verses-there are plenty to consider. Then, if you're able, feel free to respond, brother.

I will respond if you are sincere and willing to hear me out

J.

Here's the data I posted on my website concerning the trinity... https://www.carb-fat.com/trinity.html

 

[civic]

Is the forum then trying to block the testimony of scripture regarding the Trinity so that they can get more unity of the people chatting there?

Of course this site favors people of different views to discuss the views freely as part of open discussion for apologetics objectives and perchance some will change over to acceptance of Christ and faithful doctrines. This site then is more open than just about any other one. But for another chat site to restrict against sharing orthodox views is crazy. I think we are in the era of deception of Revelation 20:7-10, even if few people see it that way.

Yes after participating on several Christian forums over the last 2 plus decades I knew what I liked and did not like from them. So we decided to be different and welcoming to all faiths and discussion of different topics that were banned on other forums or certain beliefs were restricted and confined / limited to where they could post and participate.

 

[mikesw]

Yes after participating on several Christian forums over the last 2 plus decades I knew what I liked and did not like from them. So we decided to be different and welcoming to all faiths and discussion of different topics that were banned on other forums or certain beliefs were restricted and confined / limited to where they could post and participate.

I was posting in one that permitted orthodox christians to post everywhere. Others had to post in the apologetics area or an unorthodox christian area. The exception was that people could post in regular christian areas if they discuss the view as orthodox christians. That layout would be good for young Christians to avoid non-Christian influences. But nowadays it is mostly politics.

 

[Johann]

I even tried a thread where people accept the divinity of Christ in the Godhead but not in the Trinity sense. I thought some might have had that view. I could understand someone finding some sort of variation of Christ's divinity but no one answered. But, I think there is a modalist here -- just hard to understand what he is saying.
If you are interested, I share that Paul's point in Gal 3:19-20 relies on the gentiles recognizing Christ in the Godhead
#link gal-3-19-20-solved-by-the-shema-in-light-of-christs-divinity.1593/
(I'm hoping my summary of the idea makes sense. )

Thanks, brother-I’ll take a look at it tomorrow; it’s late here in South Africa, 12:47 AM! By the divinity of Christ Jesus, I assume you mean this?

Christ’s "divinity" refers to His divine nature or essence, identifying Him as God. In Christian theology, Christ's divinity means that Jesus possesses the full nature of God-eternal, uncreated, all-knowing, and all-powerful, fully participating in the Godhead while distinct in His personhood as the Son.

In Greek, one of the words associated with Christ's divinity is θεότης (theotēs), which means "divine nature" or "Godhead." This term is found in Colossians 2:9:

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the θεότης bodily."
(Colossians 2:9, Lexham English Bible)

Here, theotēs (θεότης) communicates that all of God's fullness or divine essence dwells bodily in Christ, emphasizing that He embodies the complete divine nature within human form.

Another related term is θεῖος (theios), meaning "divine" or "godlike," used in 2 Peter 1:3-4, where believers are said to partake in the "divine nature." Although theios isn't directly used to describe Christ's divinity here, it contributes to the concept of divine essence shared within the Godhead, of which Christ is an essential part.
GOD. Gr. Theos . The Greek language, being of human origin, utterly fails (and naturally so) to exhibit the wonderful precision of the Hebrew, inasmuch as the language necessarily reflects, and cannot go beyond the knowledge, or rather the lack of knowledge, of the Divine Being apart from revelation.

i. Theos corresponds, generally, with ’Elohim of the O.T., denoting the Creator (see Ap. 4. I); but it corresponds also with El (Ap. 4. IV), and Eloah (Ap. 4. V). Sometimes it corresponds with Jehovah (who is ’Elohim in Covenant relation), in which case it is printed GOD, as in the Old Testament (both A.V. and R.V.).
1. Theos is used in the N.T. of the Father, as the revealed God (see Joh_1:1. Act_17:24, &c.)
2. It is used of the Son (Mat_1:23. Joh_1:1; Joh_20:28, &c. Rom_9:5. 2Pe_1:1. 1Jn_5:20). Cp. Col_2:9 and 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4.
3. It is used of the Holy Spirit (Act_5:3-4, compared with v . 4).
4. It is used generically, as in Joh_10:34. Act_12:22. 2Co_4:4. Php_3:19, &c.
5. It is used of false gods, as in Act_7:43, &c.; and is printed "god" as in the O.T.

ii. Cognate with Theos , there are three other words to be noted :
1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while
2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.
3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.


J.

 

[mikesw]

Thanks, brother-I’ll take a look at it tomorrow; it’s late here in South Africa, 12:47 AM! By the divinity of Christ Jesus, I assume you mean this?

Christ’s "divinity" refers to His divine nature or essence, identifying Him as God. In Christian theology, Christ's divinity means that Jesus possesses the full nature of God-eternal, uncreated, all-knowing, and all-powerful, fully participating in the Godhead while distinct in His personhood as the Son.

In Greek, one of the words associated with Christ's divinity is θεότης (theotēs), which means "divine nature" or "Godhead." This term is found in Colossians 2:9:

"For in Him dwells all the fullness of the θεότης bodily."
(Colossians 2:9, Lexham English Bible)

Here, theotēs (θεότης) communicates that all of God's fullness or divine essence dwells bodily in Christ, emphasizing that He embodies the complete divine nature within human form.

Another related term is θεῖος (theios), meaning "divine" or "godlike," used in 2 Peter 1:3-4, where believers are said to partake in the "divine nature." Although theios isn't directly used to describe Christ's divinity here, it contributes to the concept of divine essence shared within the Godhead, of which Christ is an essential part.
GOD. Gr. Theos . The Greek language, being of human origin, utterly fails (and naturally so) to exhibit the wonderful precision of the Hebrew, inasmuch as the language necessarily reflects, and cannot go beyond the knowledge, or rather the lack of knowledge, of the Divine Being apart from revelation.

i. Theos corresponds, generally, with ’Elohim of the O.T., denoting the Creator (see Ap. 4. I); but it corresponds also with El (Ap. 4. IV), and Eloah (Ap. 4. V). Sometimes it corresponds with Jehovah (who is ’Elohim in Covenant relation), in which case it is printed GOD, as in the Old Testament (both A.V. and R.V.).
1. Theos is used in the N.T. of the Father, as the revealed God (see Joh_1:1. Act_17:24, &c.)
2. It is used of the Son (Mat_1:23. Joh_1:1; Joh_20:28, &c. Rom_9:5. 2Pe_1:1. 1Jn_5:20). Cp. Col_2:9 and 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4.
3. It is used of the Holy Spirit (Act_5:3-4, compared with v . 4).
4. It is used generically, as in Joh_10:34. Act_12:22. 2Co_4:4. Php_3:19, &c.
5. It is used of false gods, as in Act_7:43, &c.; and is printed "god" as in the O.T.

ii. Cognate with Theos , there are three other words to be noted :
1. Theotes , rendered "Deity", and used of Christ. Occurs only in Col_2:9, and has relation to the Godhead personally ; while
2. Theiotes , rendered "Deity" also, is Deity in the abstract . Occurs only in Rom_1:20.
3. Theios , rendered "Divine", and is used of Christ. Occurs only in 2Pe_1:3; 2Pe_1:4; and, with the Article, in Act_17:29, where it is rendered "Godhead". Gr. = that which [is] Divine.


J.

Right. I mentioned on another thread just now that I have to be more specific and say "the divinity of Christ in the Godhead."

 

[Johann]

Here's the data I posted on my website concerning the trinity... https://www.carb-fat.com/trinity.html

Nope, I have rabbinical sources that believe in the Triune Godhead.

Dr. Benjamin Sommer of the Jewish Theological Seminary admits numerous times (his book, articles, lectures, podcasts) that the Trinity is consistent with Jewish tradition and biblical Monotheism. It's a Jewish and Orthodox model in his eyes and cannot be accused of polytheism. He even sees plurality within unity as something found in the Old Testament including the Psalms, Isaiah and the books of Moses. He admits this because of his honest research into the sources while still rejecting the Trinity and not necessarily encouraging people to believe in it. This simple fact should be compelling as well as troubling for any anti-trinitarian.

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

youtu.be

Trinity Apologetics

Maybe a good thing I'm back @Peterlag?

I mean-look at this!

BESURAS HAGEULAH
ACCORDING TO
YOCHANAN

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
Joh 1:4 In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]
Joh 1:5 And the Ohr shines in the choshech [TEHILLIM 18:28], and the choshech did not grasp it. [YESHAYAH 9:1]
Joh 1:6 There came an ish haElohim (a man of G-d), having been sent from Hashem. His name was Yochanan.
Joh 1:7 This Yochanan came for an eidus (witness), that he might give solemn edut (testimony) about the Ohr, that kol Bnei Adam might have emunah through him.
Joh 1:8 This ish haElohim was not the Ohr, but he came that he might give solemn edut (testimony) about the Ohr.
Joh 1:9 The Ohr, the Ohr HaAmitti (the True Light), which gives rational haskalah (enlightenment) to kol Bnei Adam (all mankind), was coming into the Olam Hazeh.
Joh 1:10 He was in the Olam Hazeh, the Olam (world) came to be through him [Ps 33:6,9]; yet the Olam Hazeh did not recognize him.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own were not mekabel (accepting) the Kabbalus HaMalchus of him [YESHAYAH 53:3].
Joh 1:12 But as many as him lekabel pnei Moshiach (receive him as Moshiach), to them he gave the tokef (authority) to become in fact yeladim haElohim [DEVARIM 14:1].
Joh 1:13 He gave this tokef to the ones whose being born was not by the agency of natural descent, nor by the ratzon (will) of basar (fallen human nature), nor by the ratzon of a gever (male)--rather, to the ones born of G-d (Yn 3:3,7).
Joh 1:14 And the Dvar Hashem took on gufaniyut (corporeality) and made his sukkah, his Mishkan (Tabernacle) among us [YESHAYAH 7:14], and we [Shlichim, 1Y 1:1-2] gazed upon his Kavod [SHEMOT 33:18; 40:34; YESHAYAH 60:1-2], the Shechinah of the Ben Yachid from Elohim HaAv, full of Hashem's Chesed v’Emes.

Powerful man!

J.

 

[Peterlag]

Nope, I have rabbinical sources that believe in the Triune Godhead.



Dr. Benjamin Sommer of the Jewish Theological Seminary admits numerous times (his book, articles, lectures, podcasts) that the Trinity is consistent with Jewish tradition and biblical Monotheism. It's a Jewish and Orthodox model in his eyes and cannot be accused of polytheism. He even sees plurality within unity as something found in the Old Testament including the Psalms, Isaiah and the books of Moses. He admits this because of his honest research into the sources while still rejecting the Trinity and not necessarily encouraging people to believe in it. This simple fact should be compelling as well as troubling for any anti-trinitarian.

- YouTube

Auf YouTube findest du die angesagtesten Videos und Tracks. Außerdem kannst du eigene Inhalte hochladen und mit Freunden oder gleich der ganzen Welt teilen.

youtu.be

View attachment 1036
Trinity Apologetics

Maybe a good thing I'm back @Peterlag?

I mean-look at this!

BESURAS HAGEULAH
ACCORDING TO
YOCHANAN

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Joh 1:2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Joh 1:3 All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
Joh 1:4 In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]
Joh 1:5 And the Ohr shines in the choshech [TEHILLIM 18:28], and the choshech did not grasp it. [YESHAYAH 9:1]
Joh 1:6 There came an ish haElohim (a man of G-d), having been sent from Hashem. His name was Yochanan.
Joh 1:7 This Yochanan came for an eidus (witness), that he might give solemn edut (testimony) about the Ohr, that kol Bnei Adam might have emunah through him.
Joh 1:8 This ish haElohim was not the Ohr, but he came that he might give solemn edut (testimony) about the Ohr.
Joh 1:9 The Ohr, the Ohr HaAmitti (the True Light), which gives rational haskalah (enlightenment) to kol Bnei Adam (all mankind), was coming into the Olam Hazeh.
Joh 1:10 He was in the Olam Hazeh, the Olam (world) came to be through him [Ps 33:6,9]; yet the Olam Hazeh did not recognize him.
Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own were not mekabel (accepting) the Kabbalus HaMalchus of him [YESHAYAH 53:3].
Joh 1:12 But as many as him lekabel pnei Moshiach (receive him as Moshiach), to them he gave the tokef (authority) to become in fact yeladim haElohim [DEVARIM 14:1].
Joh 1:13 He gave this tokef to the ones whose being born was not by the agency of natural descent, nor by the ratzon (will) of basar (fallen human nature), nor by the ratzon of a gever (male)--rather, to the ones born of G-d (Yn 3:3,7).
Joh 1:14 And the Dvar Hashem took on gufaniyut (corporeality) and made his sukkah, his Mishkan (Tabernacle) among us [YESHAYAH 7:14], and we [Shlichim, 1Y 1:1-2] gazed upon his Kavod [SHEMOT 33:18; 40:34; YESHAYAH 60:1-2], the Shechinah of the Ben Yachid from Elohim HaAv, full of Hashem's Chesed v’Emes.

Powerful man!

J.

I call it the Big lie. Probably the biggest. I often wonder what it's going to be like for the trinity folks when they get to heaven. That is if most of them make it there. Will it be...

a.) Oh my God, I believed a huge popular lie all my life.
b.) Who cares. We all see now that Jesus was never God.
c.) Holy Smokes... no it can't be. What about all those Bible verses.

 

[synergy]

I call it the Big lie. Probably the biggest. I often wonder what it's going to be like for the trinity folks when they get to heaven. That is if most of them make it there. Will it be...

a.) Oh my God, I believed a huge popular lie all my life.
b.) Who cares. We all see now that Jesus was never God.
c.) Holy Smokes... no it can't be. What about all those Bible verses.

I'll take d.
d.) Thank God for the Holy Bible that guided us to saving faith in Jesus Christ, My Lord and My God!

 

[Peterlag]

This was taken from the REV edition commentary that seeks to sell itself as the RSV. It is a farce. Nothing but Plagiarism.

How does it get to be Plagiarism when I quote the work of others? Plagiarism is when you put your own name on it saying you wrote it or sell it with your name on it. I'm just telling you "This is all the data I could find on John 1:1. Enjoy". Does the truth change depending on who posted it?

 

[Peterlag]

Very interesting that these are the only 2 verses in the New Testament that E. W. Bullinger lists concerning the word "strong" that pertains to Christians. And both deal with being in the Lord. To be strong...

in the Lord
in his power
in his grace

Ephesians 6:10
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

2 Timothy 2:1
Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

This deals with what is in the resurrected Christ Jesus. It does not deal with what is in God.