civic
Well-known member
John 1:1-4 parallels Genesis 1 creation account. In both its the creation of ALL THINGS.
Data on John 1:1
- Thread starter Peterlag
- Start date
civic
Well-known member
Lets begin at the very first part of verse 1a.
In the beginning was the Word.
en arche en ho logos
εν αρχη ην ο λογος
the phrase "in the beginning" is "en arche". Now if you look in the Septuagint at Genesis 1:1 we find this:
εν αρχη εποιησεν ο θεος
Now the question we need to ask ourselves is what does in the beginning mean ? One must always remember that context always determines the meaning of words and phrases. If we compare Genesis with John which is exactly what John is doing in his opening to his gospel we can clearly see his point. Moses and John both are discussing the creation of "all things". That makes the passages parallel. Here a some parallels to consider:
1- in the beginning
2- Theos( God) appears in both opening verses
3- Both talk about the creation of all things
4- both use egeneto εγενετο, came into being or existence
5- both use and contrast light and darkness
εν αρχη refers to the beginning of time. Now if John didn't mean the beginning of time he could of easily used another word that he often used which would be the word from"apo" instead of en. He could of also used the phrase came into being(egeneto) to refer to the Word in 1a but he did not. John made it very clear that the Word in his gospel is equal to the God in Genesis.
Now lets look at the verb was"en". This is in the imperfect tense meaning continuous existence. By its very definition it has the meaning of eternal, without beginning. Therefor the Words existence transcends time and is eternal. Here is Dr. Robertson below:
In the beginning (en arch). Arch is definite, though anarthrous like our at home, in town, and the similar Hebrew be reshith in Genesis 1:1 . But Westcott notes that here John carries our thoughts beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity. There is no argument here to prove the existence of God any more than in Genesis. It is simply assumed. Either God exists and is the Creator of the universe as scientists like Eddington and Jeans assume or matter is eternal or it has come out of nothing. Was (hn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in verse Genesis 14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Genesis 8:58 "before Abraham came (genesqai) I am" (eimi, timeless existence).
From here we can now look to see who the Word is in John 1:1.
Now that we have established the meaning of the beginning in John 1:1a we can move on to the identity of the Word.
We can see that in both 1b and 1c John uses the word theos and theon for God. The Greek word for God can be spelled various ways depending on the grammer. It can be spelled theos, theou or theon.
theon- accusative case
theou-genative
theos-nominative
Whoever the Word is , He was alongside God (with Him) and was God. But how can the Word be with God and also be God? Lets examine 1b The Word was with God. John here is making a distinction between the Word and God. The Word existed eternally with God, for the Word (logos) was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative shows equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. This clearly reveals a relationship between the logos and theon in 1b. In (Moulton and Milligan Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament)"the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" is used to speak of the relationship between the logos and God.
The Word was God- και θεος ην ο λογος . Theos here is without the article. It is predicative and describes the nature of the Word. The absence of the article indicates that the Word is God. If “o theos” had been written then it would mean that no divine being existed outside of the Word. Johns whole gospel comes forth from this verse. The Word is who his gospel is written about and as we will see the words and deeds of Jesus are the words and deeds of God.
John 1:14 and the Word became flesh- και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο. Second aorist middle indicative of ginomai which means came into existence, He became flesh. The Word in one single event is history became man as opposed to “eimi” being or always existed. So we can clearly see the Word who is eternal came into existence in the flesh at a single point in time .
Now if we read further in John we can see that the Word dwelt among us (tabernacled).The Word entering a new mode of existence, became flesh, and lived in a tent (His physical body-a tabernacle) among us. And we beheld His glory.
This Word John the Baptist identifies as Jesus.
15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.
John 1:29-31
29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.
How was the "Word made flesh"? By the miracle of the Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-38). He took on Himself sinless human nature and identified with us in every aspect of our life from birth to death. "The Word" was not an abstract concept of philosophy, a thought or an idea but a real person who could be seen, touched, and heard. The gospel is Christ and Christ is God.
The revelation of God's glory is an important theme in Johns Gospel. Jesus revealed God's glory in His person, His works, and His words. Jesus works, words and deeds are Gods works, words and deeds. That is why He could say he who has seen me has seen the Father because they are one in essence. Jesus could say as well that before Abraham was “I Am” (the self existing One) and taking upon Himself the divine name that God gave to Moses. This is the same wording in the Septuagint.
Jesus also warns us that unless you believe that “I Am” you will die in your sins. We see later with the same audience they tried to kill Him for these very claims. You being a man make yourself to be God. There is no getting around the pre existence Son who created all things and is before all things. He truly is the Creator of Genesis 1 and John 1. Same God, same Creator, same Person.
Verse 1 describes the Word in three ways. The existence of the Word at the beginning is affirmed. The relationship of the Word to God is described. Finally, the actual character or nature of the Word is declared. The first affirmation is of the existence of the Word in the beginning. By doing this the gospel echoes almost exactly the opening words of Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God . . . ." Thus Jesus is paced at God's side as far back in time as the Bible goes. The next phrase, however, refines the relationship between Jesus and God. "The Word was with God" does not pick up a significant implication of the Greek text. It might be better translated, "The Word was face to face with God." The relationship of Jesus and God was more than side-by-side; it was a face to face relationship indicating far more intimacy than that of simply being co-workers. This prepares for the final phrase, "The Word was God."
The affirmation that Jesus is God is not a startling or difficult thought for present day Christians. It may not have been for John's readers, but it was difficult for many first century Christians of Jewish heritage. Every Jew began every morning with these words in prayer, "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one." To claim that Jesus was God would be a very difficult idea for Jews to assimilate. Perhaps the point that we should understand is not just that Jesus was (and is) God, but that when Jesus is seen, God is seen. The Logos provides us access and understanding into the very nature of God.
That does not mean that the Logos exhausts the being of God. John does not say God was the Logos. We struggle with the mystery of this verse. Jesus is said both to be with God and to be God. That speaks of Jesus being distinguishable and yet identical with God. Our minds cannot hold the ultimate logic of both statements together. We believe, but there is a limit to our understanding. John could have easily said as Paul did in Ephesians 5:32, "This is a great mystery."
Verses 2 and 3 return to the eternal existence of the Logos with God and the role of the "Word" in creation. "And apart from Him not even one thing was made." This emphasis on Christ as creator reflects an important insight from Jewish thought. To affirm that nothing was made apart from Christ is to affirm that His imprint is stamped on all creation. All creation owes a certain accountability to the Creator. As modern science pursues the mystery of life in physical and chemical terms, the Bible-believing Christian cannot evade the meaning of John 1:2-3. We are responsible for the life we live to Christ as our Creator. The meaning of our life will never be embraced by DNA studies. The imprint of Christ on our neighbor and our universe will always be a part of our pursuit of understanding. The creation can never be considered evil from a Christian standpoint, but we must be the people most concerned that evil does not corrupt it.
Verse 4 introduces the terms, "life" and "light," in relation to Jesus. Life was in the logos. The energy and vitality, the creativity and feeling that we call life has its source in Christ. If life has its existence in the logos then if there is no logos there is no life. John wants to make Christ absolutely the essence and meaning of life. No Christ - no life. We are too tempted to spiritualize this truth. No Christ - no spiritual life. For John the difference between life and mere existence is Christ. If we agree with John the way we spend our time and money, the things we think important and funny, and commitments of our energy and interest will all be changed. We have let the world define life for us too long. Life is in Christ.
Verse 4 goes on to declare that this Life was also the light of mankind. Verse 5 declares that Jesus is involved in a great struggle against darkness. Here is an example of John's black and white thinking that we may not be able to appreciate like the people of the first century did. The flick of a light switch has made light so easy for us that most of us do not really understand darkness. We do not have to deal with its terror, its unknown character, its evil-cloaking nature.
The Word was with God—The preposition translated "with" is pros. In Koine Greek pros (short for prosopon pros prosopon, "face to face") was used to show intimacy in personal relationships (see Matt. 13:56; 26:18; Mark 6:3; 14:49; 1 Cor. 13:12; 6:10; 2 Cor. 5:8; Gal. 1:18). Thus, for John to say "the Word was with God" was for him to mean "the Word was face to face with God" (see Williams’s translation) or "the Word was having intimate fellowship with God." This speaks of the preincarnate Son’s relationship with the Father prior to creation—in fact, prior to everything (see 1:18; 17:5, 24) (JFB).
With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other (RWP).
The preposition "with" in the phrase "the Word was with God" indicates both equality and distinction of identity along with association. The phrase can be rendered "face to face with." It may, therefore, imply personality, coexistence with the Creator, and yet be an expression of his creative being...The preposition ðñ’ò (pros) indicates both equality and distinction of identity. Robertson says, "The literal idea comes out well, ‘face to face with God’" (RHG, p. 623). Thus this implies personality and coexistence with God. Robertson says it bespeaks of "the fellowship between the Logos and God" (EBC).
Thus John’s statement is that the divine Word not only abode with the Father from all eternity, but was in the living, active relation of communion with Him (Vincent).
Of the character of this relationship to God no further details are given. [Apparently "with God" (pros + accusative) is intended as an indication not only of place but also of disposition and orientation. - note 23] The focus is entirely on the antecedent existence of the Word, that is, that it existed before all that is created, and on the Word's participation in the divine. This latter point is made in no uncertain terms by the emphatic positioning of the predicate noun: "And God was the Word" (Ridderbos).
What we notice about all these examples [of pros in the NT], however, is that in all but one or two peculiar constructions (e.g., 1 Pet. 3:15), prosmay mean 'with' only when a person is with a person, usually in some fairly intimate relationship. And that suggests that John may already be pointing out, rather subtly, that the 'Word' he is talking about is a person, with God and therefore distinguishable from God, and enjoying a personal relationship with him (Carson).
The Greek preposition translated with suggests the idea of communion. The thought is lit. 'towards God', which requires some distinctiveness between God and the Word. But the next phrase adds a further aspect, since it affirms that the Word was God...Since the Greek has no article before God, the term must be taken setting out a characteristic of the Word. Since God is a noun, John must be affirming the Godhead of the Word. It involves not only divinity but deity (NBC).
hope this helps !!!
In the beginning was the Word.
en arche en ho logos
εν αρχη ην ο λογος
the phrase "in the beginning" is "en arche". Now if you look in the Septuagint at Genesis 1:1 we find this:
εν αρχη εποιησεν ο θεος
Now the question we need to ask ourselves is what does in the beginning mean ? One must always remember that context always determines the meaning of words and phrases. If we compare Genesis with John which is exactly what John is doing in his opening to his gospel we can clearly see his point. Moses and John both are discussing the creation of "all things". That makes the passages parallel. Here a some parallels to consider:
1- in the beginning
2- Theos( God) appears in both opening verses
3- Both talk about the creation of all things
4- both use egeneto εγενετο, came into being or existence
5- both use and contrast light and darkness
εν αρχη refers to the beginning of time. Now if John didn't mean the beginning of time he could of easily used another word that he often used which would be the word from"apo" instead of en. He could of also used the phrase came into being(egeneto) to refer to the Word in 1a but he did not. John made it very clear that the Word in his gospel is equal to the God in Genesis.
Now lets look at the verb was"en". This is in the imperfect tense meaning continuous existence. By its very definition it has the meaning of eternal, without beginning. Therefor the Words existence transcends time and is eternal. Here is Dr. Robertson below:
In the beginning (en arch). Arch is definite, though anarthrous like our at home, in town, and the similar Hebrew be reshith in Genesis 1:1 . But Westcott notes that here John carries our thoughts beyond the beginning of creation in time to eternity. There is no argument here to prove the existence of God any more than in Genesis. It is simply assumed. Either God exists and is the Creator of the universe as scientists like Eddington and Jeans assume or matter is eternal or it has come out of nothing. Was (hn). Three times in this sentence John uses this imperfect of eimi to be which conveys no idea of origin for God or for the Logos, simply continuous existence. Quite a different verb (egeneto, became) appears in verse Genesis 14 for the beginning of the Incarnation of the Logos. See the distinction sharply drawn in Genesis 8:58 "before Abraham came (genesqai) I am" (eimi, timeless existence).
From here we can now look to see who the Word is in John 1:1.
Now that we have established the meaning of the beginning in John 1:1a we can move on to the identity of the Word.
We can see that in both 1b and 1c John uses the word theos and theon for God. The Greek word for God can be spelled various ways depending on the grammer. It can be spelled theos, theou or theon.
theon- accusative case
theou-genative
theos-nominative
Whoever the Word is , He was alongside God (with Him) and was God. But how can the Word be with God and also be God? Lets examine 1b The Word was with God. John here is making a distinction between the Word and God. The Word existed eternally with God, for the Word (logos) was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative shows equality and intimacy, face to face with each other. This clearly reveals a relationship between the logos and theon in 1b. In (Moulton and Milligan Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament)"the knowledge of our intimacy with one another" is used to speak of the relationship between the logos and God.
The Word was God- και θεος ην ο λογος . Theos here is without the article. It is predicative and describes the nature of the Word. The absence of the article indicates that the Word is God. If “o theos” had been written then it would mean that no divine being existed outside of the Word. Johns whole gospel comes forth from this verse. The Word is who his gospel is written about and as we will see the words and deeds of Jesus are the words and deeds of God.
John 1:14 and the Word became flesh- και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο. Second aorist middle indicative of ginomai which means came into existence, He became flesh. The Word in one single event is history became man as opposed to “eimi” being or always existed. So we can clearly see the Word who is eternal came into existence in the flesh at a single point in time .
Now if we read further in John we can see that the Word dwelt among us (tabernacled).The Word entering a new mode of existence, became flesh, and lived in a tent (His physical body-a tabernacle) among us. And we beheld His glory.
This Word John the Baptist identifies as Jesus.
15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.
John 1:29-31
29The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.
How was the "Word made flesh"? By the miracle of the Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-38). He took on Himself sinless human nature and identified with us in every aspect of our life from birth to death. "The Word" was not an abstract concept of philosophy, a thought or an idea but a real person who could be seen, touched, and heard. The gospel is Christ and Christ is God.
The revelation of God's glory is an important theme in Johns Gospel. Jesus revealed God's glory in His person, His works, and His words. Jesus works, words and deeds are Gods works, words and deeds. That is why He could say he who has seen me has seen the Father because they are one in essence. Jesus could say as well that before Abraham was “I Am” (the self existing One) and taking upon Himself the divine name that God gave to Moses. This is the same wording in the Septuagint.
Jesus also warns us that unless you believe that “I Am” you will die in your sins. We see later with the same audience they tried to kill Him for these very claims. You being a man make yourself to be God. There is no getting around the pre existence Son who created all things and is before all things. He truly is the Creator of Genesis 1 and John 1. Same God, same Creator, same Person.
Verse 1 describes the Word in three ways. The existence of the Word at the beginning is affirmed. The relationship of the Word to God is described. Finally, the actual character or nature of the Word is declared. The first affirmation is of the existence of the Word in the beginning. By doing this the gospel echoes almost exactly the opening words of Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God . . . ." Thus Jesus is paced at God's side as far back in time as the Bible goes. The next phrase, however, refines the relationship between Jesus and God. "The Word was with God" does not pick up a significant implication of the Greek text. It might be better translated, "The Word was face to face with God." The relationship of Jesus and God was more than side-by-side; it was a face to face relationship indicating far more intimacy than that of simply being co-workers. This prepares for the final phrase, "The Word was God."
The affirmation that Jesus is God is not a startling or difficult thought for present day Christians. It may not have been for John's readers, but it was difficult for many first century Christians of Jewish heritage. Every Jew began every morning with these words in prayer, "Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one." To claim that Jesus was God would be a very difficult idea for Jews to assimilate. Perhaps the point that we should understand is not just that Jesus was (and is) God, but that when Jesus is seen, God is seen. The Logos provides us access and understanding into the very nature of God.
That does not mean that the Logos exhausts the being of God. John does not say God was the Logos. We struggle with the mystery of this verse. Jesus is said both to be with God and to be God. That speaks of Jesus being distinguishable and yet identical with God. Our minds cannot hold the ultimate logic of both statements together. We believe, but there is a limit to our understanding. John could have easily said as Paul did in Ephesians 5:32, "This is a great mystery."
Verses 2 and 3 return to the eternal existence of the Logos with God and the role of the "Word" in creation. "And apart from Him not even one thing was made." This emphasis on Christ as creator reflects an important insight from Jewish thought. To affirm that nothing was made apart from Christ is to affirm that His imprint is stamped on all creation. All creation owes a certain accountability to the Creator. As modern science pursues the mystery of life in physical and chemical terms, the Bible-believing Christian cannot evade the meaning of John 1:2-3. We are responsible for the life we live to Christ as our Creator. The meaning of our life will never be embraced by DNA studies. The imprint of Christ on our neighbor and our universe will always be a part of our pursuit of understanding. The creation can never be considered evil from a Christian standpoint, but we must be the people most concerned that evil does not corrupt it.
Verse 4 introduces the terms, "life" and "light," in relation to Jesus. Life was in the logos. The energy and vitality, the creativity and feeling that we call life has its source in Christ. If life has its existence in the logos then if there is no logos there is no life. John wants to make Christ absolutely the essence and meaning of life. No Christ - no life. We are too tempted to spiritualize this truth. No Christ - no spiritual life. For John the difference between life and mere existence is Christ. If we agree with John the way we spend our time and money, the things we think important and funny, and commitments of our energy and interest will all be changed. We have let the world define life for us too long. Life is in Christ.
Verse 4 goes on to declare that this Life was also the light of mankind. Verse 5 declares that Jesus is involved in a great struggle against darkness. Here is an example of John's black and white thinking that we may not be able to appreciate like the people of the first century did. The flick of a light switch has made light so easy for us that most of us do not really understand darkness. We do not have to deal with its terror, its unknown character, its evil-cloaking nature.
The Word was with God—The preposition translated "with" is pros. In Koine Greek pros (short for prosopon pros prosopon, "face to face") was used to show intimacy in personal relationships (see Matt. 13:56; 26:18; Mark 6:3; 14:49; 1 Cor. 13:12; 6:10; 2 Cor. 5:8; Gal. 1:18). Thus, for John to say "the Word was with God" was for him to mean "the Word was face to face with God" (see Williams’s translation) or "the Word was having intimate fellowship with God." This speaks of the preincarnate Son’s relationship with the Father prior to creation—in fact, prior to everything (see 1:18; 17:5, 24) (JFB).
With God (pros ton theon). Though existing eternally with God the Logos was in perfect fellowship with God. Pros with the accusative presents a plane of equality and intimacy, face to face with each other (RWP).
The preposition "with" in the phrase "the Word was with God" indicates both equality and distinction of identity along with association. The phrase can be rendered "face to face with." It may, therefore, imply personality, coexistence with the Creator, and yet be an expression of his creative being...The preposition ðñ’ò (pros) indicates both equality and distinction of identity. Robertson says, "The literal idea comes out well, ‘face to face with God’" (RHG, p. 623). Thus this implies personality and coexistence with God. Robertson says it bespeaks of "the fellowship between the Logos and God" (EBC).
Thus John’s statement is that the divine Word not only abode with the Father from all eternity, but was in the living, active relation of communion with Him (Vincent).
Of the character of this relationship to God no further details are given. [Apparently "with God" (pros + accusative) is intended as an indication not only of place but also of disposition and orientation. - note 23] The focus is entirely on the antecedent existence of the Word, that is, that it existed before all that is created, and on the Word's participation in the divine. This latter point is made in no uncertain terms by the emphatic positioning of the predicate noun: "And God was the Word" (Ridderbos).
What we notice about all these examples [of pros in the NT], however, is that in all but one or two peculiar constructions (e.g., 1 Pet. 3:15), prosmay mean 'with' only when a person is with a person, usually in some fairly intimate relationship. And that suggests that John may already be pointing out, rather subtly, that the 'Word' he is talking about is a person, with God and therefore distinguishable from God, and enjoying a personal relationship with him (Carson).
The Greek preposition translated with suggests the idea of communion. The thought is lit. 'towards God', which requires some distinctiveness between God and the Word. But the next phrase adds a further aspect, since it affirms that the Word was God...Since the Greek has no article before God, the term must be taken setting out a characteristic of the Word. Since God is a noun, John must be affirming the Godhead of the Word. It involves not only divinity but deity (NBC).
hope this helps !!!
John Evens
New member
There are many passages that use the word God itself for Jesus Christ. The most famous is John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” We know from verse 14 that the term Word here refers to Jesus, for verse 14 says that “the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” So, John 1:1 teaches that Jesus was with God in the very beginning, and that he himself was God.
Not a god.
Not a god.
civic
Well-known member
Yes who became a man, not a what/it became a man.
civic
Well-known member
Leviticus 26:12
12 And I will walk among you and will be your God, and you shall be my people.
Genesis 3:8
Then the man and his wife heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the breeze of the day, and they hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Exodus 29:45
Then I will dwell among the Israelites and be their God.
Deuteronomy 23:14
For the LORD your God walks throughout your camp to protect you and deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, lest He see anything unclean among you and turn away from you.
The Word was God, the Word became flesh and dwelled among us. John 1:1,14
12 And I will walk among you and will be your God, and you shall be my people.
Genesis 3:8
Then the man and his wife heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the breeze of the day, and they hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Exodus 29:45
Then I will dwell among the Israelites and be their God.
Deuteronomy 23:14
For the LORD your God walks throughout your camp to protect you and deliver your enemies to you. Your camp must be holy, lest He see anything unclean among you and turn away from you.
The Word was God, the Word became flesh and dwelled among us. John 1:1,14
Peterlag
Well-known member
God could have been talking to any of his angel like creatures. I did not say angel's created.
Peterlag
Well-known member
The life of Jesus, and the subsequent persecution of Christians during the Roman Empire, have come to define what many of us know about early Christianity. The fervent debate, civil strife, and bloody riots within the Christian community as it was forming, however, is a story that is rarely told. Richard E. Rubenstein takes readers to the streets of the Roman Empire during the fourth century, where a divisive argument over the divinity of Jesus Christ was underway. Ruled by a Christian emperor, followers of Jesus no longer feared for the survival of their monotheistic faith, but they found themselves in different camps—led by two charismatic men—on the topic of Christian theology. Arius, an Alexandrian priest and poet, preached that Jesus, though holy, is less than God, while Athanasius, a brilliant and violent bishop, saw any diminution of Jesus' godhead as the work of the devil. Between them stood Alexander, the powerful Bishop of Alexandria, in search of a solution that would keep the empire united and the Christian faith alive.
Here's another one. Two different books...
How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee is a book by American New Testament scholar Bart D. Ehrman. Published on March 25, 2014, by Harper One, the book contends that the historical Jesus did not claim to be divine, nor was he worshipped as such during his life; rather, his status as God the Son in the Trinity in Christian doctrine developed in the years following his crucifixion.[1][2]
Here's another one. Two different books...
How Jesus Became God: The Exaltation of a Jewish Preacher from Galilee is a book by American New Testament scholar Bart D. Ehrman. Published on March 25, 2014, by Harper One, the book contends that the historical Jesus did not claim to be divine, nor was he worshipped as such during his life; rather, his status as God the Son in the Trinity in Christian doctrine developed in the years following his crucifixion.[1][2]
Overview
In How Jesus Became God, Ehrman argues that the historical Jesus did not claim divinity and was not worshipped as divine during his lifetime. Instead, the belief in Jesus as divine arose shortly after his crucifixion, and that the belief in Jesus as God the Son, an incarnation of God and the second divine person (or "prosopon") in the Trinity in Christian doctrine, developed in the following centuries.[1][2][3]
civic
Well-known member
Why would anyone blind to the truth as an atheist be recommended?
Who cares what an atheist thinks about the Bible. They do not believe the truth contained in scripture so who cares about his darkened view of Jesus?
Peterlag
Well-known member
They are probably both not Christian, but both are historians. I quote them because folks here seem to think I'm the only one writing about this topic.
Lets us create
Not lets us watch
aside from which
John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
Colossians 1:16 (NASB 2020) — 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Colossians tells you right in the verse what was created by and for Jesus. They are thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities. These are the things Jesus will need when he returns to the earth. It does not say planets, oceans, and suns.
read the whole thing
Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Peterlag
Well-known member
I have read the whole thing. I read all Scripture in context. There's no planets or stars mentioned.
All things
Scripture defines the all things for us
John 1:3 (KJV 1900) — 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Peterlag
Well-known member
That's a different verse. In that verse it's referring to God.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
The concept of verses were introduced in the Geneva Bible.
Have you ever actually read a Hebrew or Greek manuscript?
Sorry no it is not
John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
The pronoun he refers to the word
He was with God
It can't be God
The pronoun him is the same pronoun
and it points to the word
further the word was made flesh and was in the World
John 1:10 (NASB 2020) — 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him.
Just as you misinterpret my comments, you misinterpret scripture
Peterlag
Well-known member
I wrote this all down in the OP.
But you cannot rebut this
John 1:1–3 (NASB 2020) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
The pronoun he refers to the word
He was with God
It can't be God
The pronoun him is the same pronoun
and it points to the word
further the word was made flesh and was in the World
John 1:10 (NASB 2020) — 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him.
The same person as seen here
Colossians 1:16–17 (NASB 2020) — 16 for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
Peterlag
Well-known member
It's all written in detail in the OP. There's a whole 2 or 3 pages just on this John 1:1 that you say I'm not handling. And yet I have pages just on this subject.
