Data on John 1:1

[TomL]

It's all written in detail in the OP. There's a whole 2 or 3 pages just on this John 1:1 that you say I'm not handling. And yet I have pages just on this subject.

Show where you rebutted my argument

 

[TomL]

The “Word” is translated from the Greek word logos (λόγοc). It refers to God’s reason as played out in His plan and purpose. It is important that Christians have a basic understanding of logos, which is translated as “Word” in most versions of John 1:1. Most Trinitarians believe that logos refers directly to Jesus Christ, so in most Bibles logos is capitalized as “Word” (some versions even put “Jesus Christ” instead of “Word” in John 1:1).

An honest exegesis of the passage would note the following

The Word who was God became flesh and was seen in his glory as the only-begotten of the Father

John 1:1–14 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Seeing as anyone who has actually read John's gospel understands Jesus Christ is the only-begotten of the Father

The above work should be thrown in the garbage with the rest of the trash

 

[Peterlag]

An honest exegesis of the passage would note the following

The Word who was God became flesh and was seen in his glory as the only-begotten of the Father

John 1:1–14 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Seeing as anyone who has actually read John's gospel understands Jesus Christ is the only-begotten of the Father

The above work should be thrown in the garbage with the rest of the trash

We can't get past this block. This wall between us. I know the Word is not a living thing that somehow became a God-Man. You are 100 percent sure that it did. That the Word was a God or the same as God or another God and that became a God Man. So we can end this right here. This way you can stop saying I'm not dealing with the verse. And I can stop dealing with the verse over and over.

 

[TomL]

We can't get past this block. This wall between us. I know the Word is not a living thing that somehow became a God-Man. You are 100 percent sure that it did. That the Word was a God or the same as God or another God and that became a God Man. So we can end this right here. This way you can stop saying I'm not dealing with the verse. And I can stop dealing with the verse over and over.

You know no such thing and are not able to exegete the passage consistent with the entire word of God i.e. Phil 2:5ff which you have confirmed cannot be speaking of an impersonal thing yet it speaks of Jesus before he was made flesh

Thus, You offer only denial not exegesis

 

[mikesw]

We can't get past this block. This wall between us. I know the Word is not a living thing that somehow became a God-Man. You are 100 percent sure that it did. That the Word was a God or the same as God or another God and that became a God Man.

You always seem to miss the Trinitarian concept which you are trying to deny. You miss that the Word is part of the Godhead and consequently is not another God but is distinct from all the options you provide. It keeps coming to that misunderstanding that seems to be the fault in your thinking. This is like someone who is color blind and consequently never can identify the color Red.

 

[Peterlag]

You always seem to miss the Trinitarian concept which you are trying to deny. You miss that the Word is part of the Godhead and consequently is not another God but is distinct from all the options you provide. It keeps coming to that misunderstanding that seems to be the fault in your thinking. This is like someone who is color blind and consequently never can identify the color Red.

I have posted 2 or 3 pages about the "Word" on the OP and what I believe it is. And none of what I posted has anything to do with the trinity or that Jesus was here before he was born.

 

[TomL]

I have posted 2 or 3 pages about the "Word" on the OP and what I believe it is. And none of what I posted has anything to do with the trinity or that Jesus was here before he was born.

But you are unable to actually exegete the passage or address rebuttals to the claims made

 

[Peterlag]

But you are unable to actually exegete the passage or address rebuttals to the claims made

The rebuttals need to be reasonably addressed so they make sense. And yours make no sense to me.

 

[civic]

Colossians tells you right in the verse what was created by and for Jesus. They are thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities. These are the things Jesus will need when he returns to the earth. It does not say planets, oceans, and suns.

Which include the angels . This means He existed before they were created as their Creator

 

[TomL]

The rebuttals need to be reasonably addressed so they make sense. And yours make no sense to me.

Copout

The problem is you are not trying to read the text for what it states but for what your theology assumes

 

[civic]

Show where you rebutted my argument

It never happened since eisegesis by definition is not refuting an argument

 

[Peterlag]

Which include the angels . This means He existed before they were created as their Creator

The thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities were not created in Genesis. They were created in Colossians.

 

[civic]

The thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities were not created in Genesis. They were created in Colossians.

Angels
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κυριότης, κυριότητος, ἡ (ὁ κύριος), dominion, power, lordship; in the N. T. one who possesses dominion (see ἐξουσία, 4 c. β.; cf. German Herrschaft (or Milton's dominations); in Tacitus, ann. 13, 1 dominationes is equivalent to dominantes), so used of angels (κύριοι, 1 Corinthians 8:5; see κύριος, a. at the end): Ephesians 1:21; 2 Peter 2:10; Jude 1:8; plural Colossians 1:16. (Ecclesiastical (e. g. 'Teaching' c. 4 [ET]) and Byzantine writings.) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance dominion, government. From kurios; mastery, i.e. (concretely and collectively) rulers -- dominion, government. see GREEK kurios Forms and Transliterations κυριοτητα κυριότητα κυριοτητες κυριότητες κυριοτητος κυριότητος kurioteta kuriotēta kuriotetes kuriotētes kuriotetos kuriotētos kyrioteta kyriotēta kyrióteta kyriótēta kyriotetes kyriotētes kyriótetes kyriótētes kyriotetos kyriotētos kyriótetos kyriótētos Links Interlinear Greek • Interlinear Hebrew • Strong's Numbers • Englishman's Greek Concordance • Englishman's Hebrew Concordance • Parallel Texts Englishman's Concordance Ephesians 1:21 N-GFS GRK: δυνάμεως καὶ κυριότητος καὶ παντὸς NAS: and power and dominion, and every KJV: might, and dominion, and every INT: power and dominion and every Colossians 1:16 N-NFP GRK: θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ NAS: thrones or dominions or rulers KJV: or dominions, or INT: thrones or lordships or principalities 2 Peter 2:10 N-GFS GRK: πορευομένους καὶ κυριότητοςκαταφρονοῦντας τολμηταί NAS: and despise authority. Daring, KJV: despise government. Presumptuous INT: walk and authority despise [They are] daring Jude 1:8 N-AFS GRK: μὲν μιαίνουσιν κυριότητα δὲ ἀθετοῦσιν NAS: and reject authority, and revile KJV: despise dominion, and speak evil INT: indeed defile authority moreover set aside Strong's Greek 2963 4 Occurrences κυριότητα — 1 Occ. κυριότητες — 1 Occ. κυριότητος — 2 Occ.

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[Peterlag]

Angels
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κυριότης, κυριότητος, ἡ (ὁ κύριος), dominion, power, lordship; in the N. T. one who possesses dominion (see ἐξουσία, 4 c. β.; cf. German Herrschaft (or Milton's dominations); in Tacitus, ann. 13, 1 dominationes is equivalent to dominantes), so used of angels (κύριοι, 1 Corinthians 8:5; see κύριος, a. at the end): Ephesians 1:21; 2 Peter 2:10; Jude 1:8; plural Colossians 1:16. (Ecclesiastical (e. g. 'Teaching' c. 4 [ET]) and Byzantine writings.) Strong's Exhaustive Concordance dominion, government. From kurios; mastery, i.e. (concretely and collectively) rulers -- dominion, government. see GREEK kurios Forms and Transliterations κυριοτητα κυριότητα κυριοτητες κυριότητες κυριοτητος κυριότητος kurioteta kuriotēta kuriotetes kuriotētes kuriotetos kuriotētos kyrioteta kyriotēta kyrióteta kyriótēta kyriotetes kyriotētes kyriótetes kyriótētes kyriotetos kyriotētos kyriótetos kyriótētos Links Interlinear Greek • Interlinear Hebrew • Strong's Numbers • Englishman's Greek Concordance • Englishman's Hebrew Concordance • Parallel Texts Englishman's Concordance Ephesians 1:21 N-GFS GRK: δυνάμεως καὶ κυριότητος καὶ παντὸς NAS: and power and dominion, and every KJV: might, and dominion, and every INT: power and dominion and every Colossians 1:16 N-NFP GRK: θρόνοι εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ NAS: thrones or dominions or rulers KJV: or dominions, or INT: thrones or lordships or principalities 2 Peter 2:10 N-GFS GRK: πορευομένους καὶ κυριότητοςκαταφρονοῦντας τολμηταί NAS: and despise authority. Daring, KJV: despise government. Presumptuous INT: walk and authority despise [They are] daring Jude 1:8 N-AFS GRK: μὲν μιαίνουσιν κυριότητα δὲ ἀθετοῦσιν NAS: and reject authority, and revile KJV: despise dominion, and speak evil INT: indeed defile authority moreover set aside Strong's Greek 2963 4 Occurrences κυριότητα — 1 Occ. κυριότητες — 1 Occ. κυριότητος — 2 Occ.

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I can't comment because I don't get your point.

 

[civic]

I can't comment because I don't get your point.

It’s angels in Col 1:16.

 

[TomL]

It never happened since eisegesis by definition is not refuting an argument

Exactly

 

[Peterlag]

If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said... Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God. The Epistles would have writings like Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ. And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

 

[mikesw]

If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said... Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God. The Epistles would have writings like Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ. And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

IKR. Lord,show us the Father, and it is enough for us. That is what he need now.

 

[TomL]

If there is a trinity then why not just come out and say it? Why do we have to jump all over the Bible cutting and pasting pieces of words that are scattered all over the Bible? Why not just teach it? I know enough about how the Bible is written in the New Testament and in the Gospels to know if there was a trinity it would have been taught. The Gospels would have clearly said... Verily, verily I say unto you that I am Jesus and I'm also God. The Epistles would have writings like Yay, I Paul do testify that Jesus who is God came down from heaven to be a man for us. And we do know and testify that this same Jesus who you crucified is God. And so let us bow our knee to the one and only true God-Man Jesus Christ. And yet there's nothing like that anywhere. Not in the Old or New Testament. Not even one complete verse like that.

John 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And you do not believe it

 

[synergy]

John 1:1 (KJV 1900) — 1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And you do not believe it

He runs away.from that verse and countless other verses as fast as his little legs can carry him.