Peterlag
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We are not saying the NT is a product of mythology. We are saying Greek mythology is an important part of the cultural background of the New Testament.
Data on John 1:1
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praise_yeshua
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I never said it was. I was accurate in what I said.
Your are being ambiguous. There is a reason you're being ambiguous. Well... Not you really..... Your leaders at the "Scattered Brethren Network".
And the old testament speaks of the word of God who comes to men in visions and speaks
The first problem
The beginning referenced includes
John 1:3 (UASV) — 3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him, not one thing came into being that has come into being.
this is not the New creation but the original creation of the past
The idea that the word of God refers to the person of Jesus provides an interesting affirmation of Jesus in the OT. John then would be tying the Word in his gospel with the Word in the OT. This point also means the ties of logos with the written word and various other associations provided by the runningman and peterlag show the deeper role of the person of Jesus throughout scripture.
Your second problem is the scripture itself and that passage you can never address
Philippians 2:5–8 (UASV) — 5 Have this mind in yourselves, which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
When was He existing in the form of God?
With a mind, with an ability to consider and display the humility the passage speaks about
The text shows it was before being made in the likeness of men
when the word became flesh and men saw him
John 1:14 (UASV) — 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only begotten one from the Father, full of grace and truth.
and seeing as he had a mind , could consider and did display humility before becoming a man he was a personal being not a plan and not an impersonal thing
consider also the fact that Jesus on many occasions stated he came down from heaven and that he had glory with the father before the world was
You really do need to rethink what they have been feeding you
That and the angel of the lord as well as Christ's statement no one has heard the father voice or seen his form (yet men are stated to have seen God)
and the confirmation it was Christ who followed the Israelites in the desert
1 Corinthians 10:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Again, nothing on what was written on the post. Just attack me personally.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You should share that where you're parroting from......
Nice brief and concise summary that is irrefutable by those who believe the Bible.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I have told my friend John that I post a lot of his stuff along with my own. He was happy.
Runningman
Well-known member
I assume we are thinking of the same John. He has some good videos.
Indeed, I am afraid however the Unitarians do not believe the bible
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Is John part of the cult of "Scattered Brethren"?
Peterlag
Well-known member
Peterlag
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praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Is Trinitarianism a cult?
These are well before the fourth and fifth century
He is Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness.” Barnabas (c. 70–130, E), 1.139.
Let us reverence the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was given for us. Clement of Rome (c. 96, W), 1.11.
God Himself was manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.58.
Continue in intimate union with Jesus Christ, our God. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.68.
I pray for your happiness forever in our God, Jesus Christ. Ignatius (c. 105, E), 1.96.
The Christians trace the beginning of their religion to Jesus the Messiah. He is called the Son of the Most High God. It is said that God came down from heaven. He assumed flesh and clothed Himself with it from a Hebrew virgin. And the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. Aristides (c. 125, E), 9.265.
Truly God Himself, who is Almighty, the Creator of all things, and invisible, has sent from heaven, and placed among men, the One who is the truth, and the holy and incomprehensible Word.… God did not, as one might have imagined, send to men any servant, angel, or ruler.… Rather, He sent the very Creator and Fashioner of all things—by whom He made the heavens.… As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so God sent Him. He sent Him as God. Letter to Diognetus (c. 125–200), 1.27.
Brethren, it is fitting that you should think of Jesus Christ as of God—as the Judge of the living and the dead. Second Clement (c. 150), 7.517.
We reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.
The Word, … He is Divine. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.166.
The Father of the universe has a Son. And He, being the First-Begotten Word of God, is even God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.184.
Next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbeggoten and ineffable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.193.
For Christ is King, Priest, God, Lord, Angel, and Man. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.211.
[TRYPHO, A JEW:] You utter many blasphemies, in that you seek to persuade us that this crucified man was with Moses and Aaron, and spoke to them in the pillar of the cloud. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.213.
Moses … declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God. He was sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by another One, who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal contact with no one. We believe this other One to be the Maker and Father of all things.… Yet, there is said to be another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things. And He is also called an Angel, because he announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things—above whom there is no other God—wishes to announce to them. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.223.
He deserves to be worshipped as God and as Christ. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.229.
David predicted that He would be born from the womb before the sun and moon, according to the Father’s will. He made Him known, being Christ, as God, strong and to be worshipped. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.237.
The Son ministered to the will of the Father. Yet, nevertheless, He is God, in that He is the First-Begotten of all creatures. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.262.
If you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the Only, Unbegotten, Unutterable God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.263.
“Rejoice, O you heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship Him” [Deut. 32:43]. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.264.
He is forever the first in power. For Christ, being the First-Born of every creature, became again the chief of another race regenerated by Himself through water, faith, and wood. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.268.
Then did the whole creation see clearly that for man’s sake the Judge was condemned, and the Invisible was seen, and the Illimitable was circumscribed, and the Impassible suffered, and the Immortal died, and the Celestial was laid in the grave. Melito (c. 170, E), 8.756.
God was put to death, the King of Israel slain! Melito (c. 170, E), 8.758.
There is the one God and the Logos proceeding from Him, the Son. We understand that the Son is inseparable from Him. Athenagoras (c. 175, E), 2.137.
God by His own Word and Wisdom made all things. Theophilus (c. 180, E), 2.91.
“Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of Your kingdom is a right scepter. You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity. Therefore, God, Your God, has anointed You.” For the Spirit designates by the name of God—both Him who is anointed as Son, and He who anoints, that is, the Father. And again, “God stood in the congregation of the gods; He judges among the gods.” Here he refers to the Father and the Son, and those who have received the adoption. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.419.
For He fulfills the bountiful and comprehensive will of His Father, inasmuch as He is Himself the Savior of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things that have been formed, the Only-Begotten of the Father. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.443.
I have shown from the Scriptures that none of the sons of Adam are, absolutely and as to everything, called God, or named Lord. But Jesus is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word.… He is the Holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.449.
Thus He indicates in clear terms that He is God, and that His advent was in Bethlehem.… God, then, was made man, and the Lord did Himself save us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.451.
He is God, for the name Emmanuel indicates this. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.452.
Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.467.
Now the father of the human race is the Word of God. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.505.
How can they be saved unless it was God who worked out their salvation upon earth? Or how shall man pass into God, unless God has first passed into man? Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.507.
It is plain that He was Himself the Word of God, who was made the son of man. He received from the Father the power of remission of sins. He was man, and He was God. This was so that since as man He suffered for us, so as God He might have compassion on us. Irenaeus (c. 180, E/W), 1.545.
He is God in the form of man, stainless, the minister of His Father’s will, the Word who is God, who is in the Father, who is at the Father’s right hand. And with the form of God, He is God. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.210.
There is a suggestion of the divinity of the Lord in [Isaac’s] not being slain. Jesus rose again after His burial, having suffered no harm—just like Isaac was released from being sacrificed. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.
O the great God! O the perfect child! The Son in the Father and the Father in the Son.… God the Word, who became man for our sakes. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.215.
The Father of all is alone perfect, for the Son is in Him and the Father is in the Son. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.222.
Our Instructor is the holy God Jesus, the Word. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.223.
Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one—that is, God. For He has said, “In the beginning the Word was in God, and the Word was God.” Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.225.
He who has the Almighty God, the Word, is in want of nothing. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.281.
Pointing to the First-Begotten Son, Peter writes, accurately comprehending the statement, “In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.” And He is called Wisdom by all the prophets. This is He who is the Teacher of all created beings. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.493.
The best thing on earth is the most pious man. The best thing in heaven, the nearer in place and purer, is an angel, the partaker of the eternal and blessed life. But the nature of the Son, which is nearest to Him who is alone the Almighty One, is the most perfect, most holy, most potent, most princely, most kingly, and most beneficent. This is the highest excellence, who orders all things in accordance with the Father’s will and holds the helm of the universe in the best way.… The Son of God is never displaced … being always everywhere and being contained nowhere. He is complete mind, complete paternal light. He is all eyes, seeing all things, hearing all things, knowing all things.… All the host of angels and gods are placed in subjection to Him. He, the paternal Word, exhibits the holy administration for Him who put [all things] in subjection to Him. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.524.
The Son is the cause of all good things, by the will of the Almighty Father. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.525.
He is the true Only-Begotten, the express image of the glory of the universal King and Almighty Father, who impresses on the man of God the seal of the perfect contemplation, according to His own image. So that there is now a third divine image, made as far as possible like the Second Cause, the Essential Life. Clement of Alexandria (c. 195, E), 2.527.
Nor do we differ from the Jews concerning God. We must make, therefore, a remark or two as to Christ’s divinity. Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.34.
Search, then, and see if the divinity of Christ is true. Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.36.
To all He is equal, to all King, to all Judge, to all God and Lord. Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.158.
Christ’s name is extending everywhere, believed everywhere, worshipped by all the above-enumerated nations, reigning everywhere. Tertullian (c. 197, W), 3.158.
This opens the ears of Christ our God. Tertullian (c. 200, W), 3.715.
We who believe that God really lived on earth, and took upon Him the low estate of human form, for the purpose of man’s salvation, are very far from thinking as those do who refuse to believe that God cares for anything.… Fortunately, however, it is a part of the creed of Christians even to believe that God did die, and yet that He is alive forevermore. Tertullian (c. 207, W), 3.309.
Christ is received in the person of Christ, because even in this manner is He our God. Tertullian (c. 207, W), 3.319.
He is not on this account to be regarded as an angel—as a Gabriel or a Michael.… Since He is the Spirit of God and the Power of the Highest, can He be regarded as lower than the angels? He who is truly God and the Son of God? Tertullian (c. 210, W), 3.534.
For so did the Father previously say to the Son: “Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness.” Tertullian (c. 210, W), 3.549.
If God had willed not to be born, He would not have presented Himself in the likeness of man. Tertullian (c. 210, W), 3.522.
Christ never used that familiar phrase of all the prophets, “Thus saith the Lord.” For He was Himself the Lord, who openly spoke by His own authority, prefacing his words with the phrase, “Truly, truly, I say unto you.” Tertullian (c. 210, W), 3.534.
“Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord,” that is to say, the Son in the Father’s name. And as for the Father’s names—God Almighty, the Most High, the Lord of Hosts, the King of Israel, the One Who Is—the Scriptures teach us and we say that they belonged suitably to the Son also. We say that the Son came under these designations and has always acted in them and has thus manifested them in Himself to men. He says, “All things that the Father has are mine.” Then, why not His names also? Tertullian (c. 213, W), 3.613.
How is it that the Son suffered, yet the Father did not suffer with Him? [The answer is that] the Father is separate from the Son, though not separated from Him as God. For example, a river flows from a fountain identical in nature with it, and it is not separated from the fountain. Nevertheless, if the river is soiled with mire and mud, the injury that affects the stream does not reach to the fountain. To be sure, it is the water of the fountain that suffers downstream. Nevertheless, since it is not affected at the fountain (but only at the river) the fountain suffers nothing. Tertullian (c. 213, W), 3.626.
Although He endured the cross, yet as God He returned to life, having trampled upon death. For His God and Father addresses Him, and says, “Sit at my right hand.” Hippolytus (c. 205, W), 5.166, 167.
By the Ancient of Days, he means none other than the Lord, God, and Ruler of all—even of Christ Himself, who makes the days old and yet does not become old Himself by times and days. “His dominion is an everlasting dominion.” The Father, having put all things in subjection to His own Son—both things in heaven and things on earth—presented Him as the First-Begotten of God. He did this in order that, along with the Father, He might be approved before angels as the Son of God and be manifested as also the Lord of angels. Hippolytus (c. 205, W), 5.189.
Christ’s body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity. Rather, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father. Yet, He was also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father is not. And he comprehends all things in Himself. Hippolytus (c. 205, W), 5.194.
Who, then, was in heaven but the Word unincarnate—who was sent to show that He was upon earth and was also in heaven? Hippolytus (c. 205, W), 5.225.
Having been made man, He is still God forever. For to this effect, John also has said, “Who is, and who was, and who is to come—the Almighty.” And he has appropriately called Christ “the Almighty.” For in this, he has said only what Christ testifies of Himself. For Christ gave this testimony and said, “All things are delivered unto me by my Father.” Hippolytus (c. 205, W), 5.225.
Besides, there are writings of certain brethren older than the times of Victor, which they wrote against the pagans in defense of the truth and against the heresies of their day.… For who is ignorant of the books of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, which declare Christ to be God and man? All the psalms, too, and hymns of brethren—which have been written from the beginning by the faithful—celebrate Christ the Word of God, ascribing divinity to Him. Eusebius, quoting Caius (c. 215, W), 5.601.
No one should be offended that the Savior is also God, seeing God is the Father. Likewise, since the Father is called Omnipotent, no one should be offended that the Son of God is also called Omnipotent. For in this way, the words will be true that He says to the Father: “All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.” Now, if all things that are the Father’s are also Christ’s, certainly one of those things is the omnipotence of the Father. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.250.
“The works that the Father does, these the Son does likewise.” And again He says that the Son cannot do anything of Himself, but only what He sees the Father do. For the Son in no way differs from the Father in the power of His works. The work of the Son is not a different thing from that of the Father. Rather, it is one and the same movement.… He therefore called Him a stainless mirror, that by such an expression it might be understood that there is no dissimilarity whatever between the Son and the Father. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.251.
Jesus Christ Himself is the Lord and Creator of the soul. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.271.
He Himself is everywhere and passes swiftly through all things. For we are no longer to understand Him as existing in those narrow limits in which He was once confined for our sakes. He is not in that circumscribed body that He occupied on earth, when dwelling among men—according to which He might be considered as enclosed in one particular place. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.299.
Every beginning of those families that have a relation to God as to the Father of all, took its beginning lower down with Christ, who is next to the God and Father of all, being thus the Father of every soul, as Adam is the father of all men. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.370, 371.
No one will logically think this Son of God, in respect of the Word being God, is to be contained in any place.… For it is absurd to say that Christ was in Peter and in Paul, but not in Michael the archangel, nor in Gabriel. And from this, it is distinctly shown that the divinity of the Son of God was not shut up in some place. Origen (c. 225, E), 4.377.
We might say of Christ, that by nature His first principle [Gr. archē] is deity. However, in relation to us, who cannot comprehend the whole truth about Him because of its very greatness, His first principle is His manhood. Origen (c. 228, E), 9.307.
David W. Bercot, ed., “Christ, Divinity Of,” A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs: A Reference Guide to More than 700 Topics Discussed by the Early Church Fathers (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1998), 93–97.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Let's look at the first one you listed...
He is Lord [It's God they are referring to] of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us [He could have been talking to anyone of His angel like creatures] make man after our image, [His image is spirit and that's what he put in humans... spirit] and after our likeness.” [God's likeness is spirit] Barnabas (c. 70–130, E), 1.139.
Nothing about Jesus or the trinity in the above statement.
Sorry angels have no creative power and you are ignoring scripture to boot
John 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:10 (NASB 2020) — 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, and yet the world did not know Him.
Colossians 1:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Hebrews 1:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:8–10 (KJV 1900) — 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
