Calvinism makes man a new creation apart from Christ

[TomL]

Did you know that becoming a believer is the result of Gods workmanship ? Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we[believers] are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Faith, Believing in Christ is part of the workmanship, men by nature are unbelievers.

Salvation is the gift

Romans 6:23 (ESV) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

verse 9 would make no sense if faith was the gift

Ephesians 2:9 (ESV) — 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

No one in their right mind would imagine works produce faith

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation is the gift

Romans 6:23 (ESV) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

verse 9 would make no sense if faith was the gift

Ephesians 2:9 (ESV) — 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

No one in their right mind would imagine works produce faith

Did you know that becoming a believer is the result of Gods workmanship ? Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we[believers] are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Faith, Believing in Christ is part of the workmanship, men by nature are unbelievers.

 

[TomL]

Did you know that becoming a believer is the result of Gods workmanship ? Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we[believers] are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Faith, Believing in Christ is part of the workmanship, men by nature are unbelievers.

You addressed nothing

Salvation is the gift

Romans 6:23 (ESV) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

verse 9 would make no sense if faith was the gift

Ephesians 2:9 (ESV) — 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

No one in their right mind would imagine works produce faith

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Sorry you have no ideas what you are talking about. You have no understanding of Greek grammar and many Greek exegetes reject your claim.

Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

The words, “through faith” speak of the instrument or means whereby the sinner avails himself of this salvation which God offers him in pure grace. Expositors says: “Paul never says ‘through the faith,’ as if the faith were the ground or procuring cause of the salvation.” Alford says: “It (the salvation) has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith.” The word “that” is touto (τουτο), “this,” a demonstrative pronoun in the neuter gender. The Greek word “faith” is feminine in gender and therefore touto (τουτο) could not refer to “faith.” It refers to the general idea of salvation in the immediate context. The translation reads, “and this not out from you as a source, of God (it is) the gift.” That is, salvation is a gift of God. It does not find its source in man. Furthermore, this salvation is not “out of a source of works.” This explains salvation by grace. It is not produced by man nor earned by him. It is a gift from God with no strings tied to it.

Kenneth S. Wuest, Wuest’s Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: For the English Reader (vol. 4; Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1997), 69.


For by grace, etc. This may truly be called exceeding riches of grace, for ye are saved by grace. Grace has the article, the grace of God, in vv. 5, 7.

And that. Not faith, but the salvation.

Of God. Emphatic. Of God is it the gift


Marvin Richardson Vincent, Word Studies in the New Testament (vol. 3; New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1887), 376.

and this (not your faith, as Chrys. οὐδὲ ἡ πίστις, φησίν, ἐξ ὑμῶν: so Thdrt., al., Corn.-a-Iap., Beza, Est., Grot., Beng., all.;—this is precluded (not by the gender of τοῦτο, but) by the manifestly parallel clauses οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν and οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, of which the latter would be irrelevant as asserted of πίστις, and the reference of ver. 9 must therefore be changed:—but, as Calv., Calov., Rück., Harl., Olsh., Mey., De W., Stier, al., ‘your salvation;’ τὸ σεσωσμένοι εἶναι, as Ellic.) not of yourselves, GOD’S (emphatic) is the gift (not, as E. V. ‘it is the gift of God’ (θεοῦ δῶρον),—τὸ δῶρον, viz. of your salvation:

Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 3; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 94.

Wrong. The word is "saved" in both English and Greek. There is no grammar in Greek or English that would allow "this" to point to "saved". Your appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

 

[TomL]

Wrong. The word is "saved" in both English and Greek. There is no grammar in Greek or English that would allow "this" to point to "saved". Your appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

Again you lack knowledge of Greek grammar

Neuter forms of houtos virtually always have conceptual referents, so readers would look for a conceptual (multi-word) referent when Paul opens a new clause with kai; tou'to

it is not a word one looks for but a conceptual reference

Neither faith or grace can be the reference as there needs to be agreement between a pronoun and its antecedent

Touto is neuter while faith is feminine as is grace

And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

PS you also do not understand the fallacy of an appeal to authority

Appeal to authority fallacy refers to the use of an expert’s opinion to back up an argument. Instead of justifying one’s claim, a person cites an authority figure who is not qualified to make reliable claims about the topic at hand. Because people tend to believe experts, appeal to authority often imbues an argument with credibility.

The one not qualified to make pronouncements concerning Greek grammars here is you

 

[brightfame52]

You addressed nothing

Salvation is the gift

Romans 6:23 (ESV) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

verse 9 would make no sense if faith was the gift

Ephesians 2:9 (ESV) — 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

No one in their right mind would imagine works produce faith

Did you know that becoming a believer is the result of Gods workmanship ? Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we[believers] are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Faith, Believing in Christ is part of the workmanship, men by nature are unbelievers.

 

[TomL]

Did you know that becoming a believer is the result of Gods workmanship ? Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we[believers] are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Faith, Believing in Christ is part of the workmanship, men by nature are unbelievers.

Repeat mindless repetition with neither answers rebuttal or addresses scripture

You addressed nothing

Salvation is the gift

Romans 6:23 (ESV) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

verse 9 would make no sense if faith was the gift

Ephesians 2:9 (ESV) — 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

No one in their right mind would imagine works produce faith

 

[brightfame52]

Repeat mindless repetition with neither answers rebuttal or addresses scripture

You addressed nothing

Salvation is the gift

Romans 6:23 (ESV) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

verse 9 would make no sense if faith was the gift

Ephesians 2:9 (ESV) — 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

No one in their right mind would imagine works produce faith

Did you know that becoming a believer is the result of Gods workmanship ? Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we[believers] are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Faith, Believing in Christ is part of the workmanship, men by nature are unbelievers.

Believing is a work of Gods Power Eph 1:19-20

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

 

[civic]

Again you lack knowledge of Greek grammar

Neuter forms of houtos virtually always have conceptual referents, so readers would look for a conceptual (multi-word) referent when Paul opens a new clause with kai; tou'to

it is not a word one looks for but a conceptual reference

Neither faith or grace can be the reference as there needs to be agreement between a pronoun and its antecedent

Touto is neuter while faith is feminine as is grace

And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

PS you also do not understand the fallacy of an appeal to authority

Appeal to authority fallacy refers to the use of an expert’s opinion to back up an argument. Instead of justifying one’s claim, a person cites an authority figure who is not qualified to make reliable claims about the topic at hand. Because people tend to believe experts, appeal to authority often imbues an argument with credibility.

The one not qualified to make pronouncements concerning Greek grammars here is you

Its obvious that Greek is foreign to some. Well for that matter English too.

 

[TomL]

Its obvious that Greek is foreign to some. Well for that matter English too.

Its funny when they try to state what the grammar must indicate

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Its funny when they try to state what the grammar must indicate

It's even funnier when someone doesn't understand grammar.

 

[civic]

Its funny when they try to state what the grammar must indicate

It sure is lol

 

[TomL]

It's even funnier when someone doesn't understand grammar.

Its even funnier when one unlearned in Greek imagines noted Greek grammarians do not know grammar.

 

[Ahar]

Did you know that becoming a believer is the result of Gods workmanship ? Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we[believers] are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Faith, Believing in Christ is part of the workmanship, men by nature are unbelievers.

Like in God's workmanship of sending his son...

But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, Galatians 4:4

This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins 1 John 4:9-10

In other words, we are wholly the result of God’s creative, redemptive, and sanctifying work, and we belong to Him. Bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus. All you need is enough faith to believe in him. Then God's Workmanship mold us into the image of Christ from glory to glory.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Its even funnier when one unlearned in Greek imagines noted Greek grammarians do not know grammar.

I'm half Greek. But aside from that, what you are claiming is that the translators didn't know Greek grammar, but some bozo agrees with you and you use that as an appeal to authority. That's hilarious.

 

[civic]

I'm half Greek. But aside from that, what you are claiming is that the translators didn't know Greek grammar, but some bozo agrees with you and you use that as an appeal to authority. That's hilarious.

I’m half Greek too . My dad was all Greek

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

I’m half Greek too . My dad was all Greek

Same here. My dad was Greek. He was also a fantastic chef, as most Greeks are. New Jersey has diners everywhere. And most of them are owned by Greeks, or they were when I lived there. It's like a chain.

 

[TomL]

I'm half Greek. But aside from that, what you are claiming is that the translators didn't know Greek grammar, but some bozo agrees with you and you use that as an appeal to authority. That's hilarious.

Sorry no

You base that comment on your misunderstanding of grammar

BTW no one knowledgeable calls At Robertson a bozo

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

Who is the author of a noted Greek grammar

Another authoritative grammar by Dan Wallace notes


Eph 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
for by grace you are saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

This is the most debated text in terms of the antecedent of the demonstrative pronoun, τοῦτο. The standard interpretations include: (1) “grace” as antecedent, (2) “faith” as antecedent, (3) the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation as antecedent, and (4) καὶ τοῦτο having an adverbial force with no antecedent (“and especially”).

The first and second options suffer from the fact that τοῦτο is neuter while χάριτι and πίστεως are feminine. Some have argued that the gender shift causes no problem because (a) there are other examples in Greek literature in which a neuter demonstrative refers back to a noun of a different gender, and (b) the τοῦτο has been attracted to the gender of δῶρον, the predicate nominative. These two arguments need to be examined together.

While it is true that on rare occasions there is a gender shift between antecedent and pronoun, the pronoun is almost always caught between two nouns of different gender. One is the antecedent; the other is the predicate nom. In Acts 8:10, for example (οὗτός ἐστιν ἡ δύναμις τοῦ θεοῦ), the pronoun is masculine because its antecedent is masculine, even though the predicate nom. is feminine. In Matt 13:38 inverse attraction takes place (the pronominal subject is attracted to the gender of the predicate nom.): τὸ δὲ καλὸν σπέρμα, οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ υἱοὶ τῆς βασιλείας (“the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom”). The construction in Eph 2:8, however, is not parallel because δῶρον is not the predicate nom. of τοῦτο, but of the implied “it” in the following clause. On a grammatical level, then, it is doubtful that either “faith” or “grace” is the antecedent of τοῦτο.

More plausible is the third view, viz., that τοῦτο refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation. As we have seen, τοῦτο regularly takes a conceptual antecedent. Whether faith is seen as a gift here or anywhere else in the NT is not addressed by this.


Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996), 334–335.

 

[TibiasDad]

Sorry no

You base that comment on your misunderstanding of grammar

BTW no one knowledgeable calls At Robertson a bozo

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

Who is the author of a noted Greek grammar

Another authoritative grammar by Dan Wallace notes


Eph 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
for by grace you are saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

This is the most debated text in terms of the antecedent of the demonstrative pronoun, τοῦτο. The standard interpretations include: (1) “grace” as antecedent, (2) “faith” as antecedent, (3) the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation as antecedent, and (4) καὶ τοῦτο having an adverbial force with no antecedent (“and especially”).

The first and second options suffer from the fact that τοῦτο is neuter while χάριτι and πίστεως are feminine. Some have argued that the gender shift causes no problem because (a) there are other examples in Greek literature in which a neuter demonstrative refers back to a noun of a different gender, and (b) the τοῦτο has been attracted to the gender of δῶρον, the predicate nominative. These two arguments need to be examined together.

While it is true that on rare occasions there is a gender shift between antecedent and pronoun, the pronoun is almost always caught between two nouns of different gender. One is the antecedent; the other is the predicate nom. In Acts 8:10, for example (οὗτός ἐστιν ἡ δύναμις τοῦ θεοῦ), the pronoun is masculine because its antecedent is masculine, even though the predicate nom. is feminine. In Matt 13:38 inverse attraction takes place (the pronominal subject is attracted to the gender of the predicate nom.): τὸ δὲ καλὸν σπέρμα, οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ υἱοὶ τῆς βασιλείας (“the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom”). The construction in Eph 2:8, however, is not parallel because δῶρον is not the predicate nom. of τοῦτο, but of the implied “it” in the following clause. On a grammatical level, then, it is doubtful that either “faith” or “grace” is the antecedent of τοῦτο.

More plausible is the third view, viz., that τοῦτο refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation. As we have seen, τοῦτο regularly takes a conceptual antecedent. Whether faith is seen as a gift here or anywhere else in the NT is not addressed by this.


Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1996), 334–335.

Mic drop! If Wallace agrees with us, what’s a Calvinist to do?

Doug

 

[TomL]

Mic drop! If Wallace agrees with us, what’s a Calvinist to do?

Doug

Wallace and for that matter AT Robertson are big guns in the business of Greek grammar

Both are Calvinists