When are believers in Christ ?

[Obadiah]

It is usually the case that a person, when born again......has a remarkable "freeing".. in their mind......its like "all that weight is off of me"....
"My mind is so calm"... ect.

And then........Hebrews 13:9 explains that at this point.......in the beginning of our "new creation in Christ".. we must....>>"establish our heart with Grace".
We must understand that the reason we are saved and stay saved always, is God's Mercy and Grace, that is found as The Cross of Christ.

If we move away from this "heart", then we find Legalism........and that is when the ....>>"what i have to do to stay saved" and "what do i do to keep from loving my salvation"....takes over our faith, and destroys it.

WE have to protect that original understanding that we are "made righteous". "eternally forgiven"..... or... a cult, a forum member, a family member.. a pastor.. a commentary... will find you, and it/they will destroy your faith, and that is when a "doctrine of devils" has taken over as your belief system.

Exactly!

Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:32

 

[Behold]

Exactly!

Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” John 8:32

That's Jesus

John 14:6

 

[civic]

That's Jesus

John 14:6

Amen

 

[TomL]

As long as you present "selected to be holy before the foundation of the world".........as "what happens after you are born again"...vs...... the Hyper-Calvinism lie that teaches you were selected before you were born, and had no say in it........as in "free will"... to believe.

So, as long as you are not trying to prove that "God selected the Christian" before he or she was born... to become HOLY...., and they had no choice.........as it was "pre-destined".......then all is well.

I never posted on or believed in Calvinist unconditional election

 

[Complete]

Your in Christ when you are set free. and you know it. Have you ever see a news video of someone being let out of prison? They know they are free. It's the same for a new believer.​

​

My initial experience as a new believer was the honest exhilaration of having the promise and expectation of eternal life. Meeting other believers was a signal for joy. I assumed that they had seen their privileged position, as I had, and renounced the self-defeating habits and hopes of their old way of life. Every minute of life was a moment to be cherished as a gift from God, to be used for His glory. This was what I understood at the beginning.​

​

Soon I began to realize that other Christians did not experience their life in Christ in the same way. Festering beneath clouds of piety was bitterness, jealousy, anger, and complaining, all of which I had known before coming to faith in Christ.​

​

They were not set free and were not in Christ. You will know them by their fruit.​

'That no flesh should glory in His presence.
But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus,
Who of God is made unto us wisdom,
and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
That, according as it is written,
He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.'
(1Cor. 1:29-31)

Hello @Obadiah,

I believe that God places the believer in Christ Jesus. Yet some fail to enter into the joy of that knowledge, and the assurance it brings, some because they do not appreciate the fulness of their salvation, and others because they are still seeking to establish their own righteousness, instead of rejoicing in the righteousness of God that has been imputed to the believer, in Christ Jesus their Lord.

* Paul prayed for the believers at Laodicea :-

'That their hearts might be comforted,
being knit together in love,
and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding,
to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God,
and of the Father, and of Christ;
In Whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.'
(Col 2:2-3)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[brightfame52]

Believers were given to Christ and Loved by God before the foundation of the world Jer 31:3

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Jn 17:24

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus Church was Loved also as by the Father in the same manner Vs 23

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

So they were chosen in Him the same time as being Loved in the same manner the Father Loved Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Some think believers are in Christ prior to faith, prior to the new birth. But what does the Bible say ?

1- When he becomes a new creation- Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation ( 2 Cor 5:17 )

Powerful verse, my brother.

One cannot be alive if one is dead.
One cannot be a new creation if one is still an old man.
One cannot be in Christ before being in Christ.

Having said that, and agreed with what you have clearly stated, there is an aspect we sometimes forget:
All this is a process. It takes time.
Many debates on salvation stem from the misunderstanding that salvation is like turning a switch ON/OFF.
You are either saved or not saved. You can either lose your salvation, or never lose it. ON/OFF.

Reality, though, shows us that every person who is born again into Christ, goes through a development process in which the old man dies slowly, in which the fruits of the Spirit appear gradually.

 

[Johann]

Powerful verse, my brother.

One cannot be alive if one is dead.
One cannot be a new creation if one is still an old man.
One cannot be in Christ before being in Christ.

Having said that, and agreed with what you have clearly stated, there is an aspect we sometimes forget:
All this is a process. It takes time.
Many debates on salvation stem from the misunderstanding that salvation is like turning a switch ON/OFF.
You are either saved or not saved. You can either lose your salvation, or never lose it. ON/OFF.

Reality, though, shows us that every person who is born again into Christ, goes through a development process in which the old man dies slowly, in which the fruits of the Spirit appear gradually.

--which is called sanctification.

J.

 

[brightfame52]

@civic

Some think believers are in Christ prior to faith,

They are and were, thats how as Paul stated, I am/was crucified with Christ. Gal 2:20

20 ;I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Now Paul wasnt a believer when Christ died on the Cross for His sins, but he was with Him when He did. How's that ?

 

[civic]

@civic



They are and were, thats how as Paul stated, I am/was crucified with Christ. Gal 2:20

20 ;I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Now Paul wasnt a believer when Christ died on the Cross for His sins, but he was with Him when He did. How's that ?

He is talking in the present

 

[brightfame52]

He is talking in the present

No he isnt, that shows me you havent studied that text, and you probably have read it hundreds of times. Crucified is in the perfect tense, do you know what that means ?

 

[synergy]

No he isnt, that shows me you havent studied that text, and you probably have read it hundreds of times. Crucified is in the perfect tense, do you know what that means ?

The phrase "I am crucified" is gramatically structured as present passive.

1. Grammar: Present Passive​

• The structure "I am crucified" = subject + present form of "to be" + past participle.
• This is called the present simple passive.
• It means the action (crucifying) is being received by the subject (I), and it's viewed as a current or ongoing state rather than a completed past event.

2. Theological/Spiritual Usage​

• This phrase famously appears in Galatians 2:20 (KJV): "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live..."
  • He means his old self or sinful nature has been put to death.
  • It implies a spiritual transformation—ongoing and active in the present.
  • Even though the crucifixion happened in the past, its effect is still alive and present in him.

So while the event being referred to is in the past, the present tense shows that its results or significance continue right now.

 

[Johann]

No he isnt, that shows me you havent studied that text, and you probably have read it hundreds of times. Crucified is in the perfect tense, do you know what that means ?

You have it backward--

Perfect Tense (συνεσταύρωμαι)
The perfect tense in Koine Greek denotes a completed action with continuing results or relevance in the present. It emphasizes--

The completed nature of the crucifixion (i.e., it already happened at a specific point in the past--namely, when Paul was united with Christ in His crucifixion, likely at the moment of Paul's conversion).

The ongoing, enduring state resulting from that crucifixion (i.e., Paul continues to live as one crucified with Christ; his former self remains rendered powerless, and his identity is now shaped by this union with the Messiah).

The use of the perfect tense here strongly conveys that Paul’s co-crucifixion with Christ is not just a past event, but one that continues to define his present life and identity.

2. Passive Voice (συνεσταύρωμαι)
The passive voice indicates that Paul is not the agent, but the recipient of the action. He did not crucify himself with Christ; rather, it was God who acted upon him, uniting him with Christ's death:

This highlights the grace-based and divine initiative in salvation.

It also underscores the transformational nature of divine union with Christ through faith (cf. Romans 6:6, “our old self was crucified with Him”).

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

--which is called sanctification.

J.

Yes.
Sanctification is a process by which man goes from state A (say, greed, arrogance or lust) to state B (say, generosity, humbleness or purity).
That is precisely what salvation is all about. We are saved from the hell of state A to start Iiving in the paradise of state B.
That is why salvation is not a possession that is earned or lost. It has no clear beginning or end.
It is like the wind (spirit):
“The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No he isnt, that shows me you havent studied that text, and you probably have read it hundreds of times. Crucified is in the perfect tense, do you know what that means ?

This should not be difficult to understand.
We get crucified with Christ when and only when our “old man” is crucified. (Romans 6:6, see below).
So, When was Paul’s old man crucified? Was the old Paul or the new Paul who persecuted Christians?
Certainly, Paul’s old man was crucified after his encounter with Christ in the road to Damascus.

“…knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him, so that the body of sin might be destroyed, and we should no longer be slaves to sin”

So @civic and @Johann are right. In Galatians 2:20 Paul was describing his present condition… a condition that didn’t exist before his conversion.

 

[brightfame52]

The phrase "I am crucified" is gramatically structured as present passive.

1. Grammar: Present Passive​

• The structure "I am crucified" = subject + present form of "to be" + past participle.
• This is called the present simple passive.
• It means the action (crucifying) is being received by the subject (I), and it's viewed as a current or ongoing state rather than a completed past event.

2. Theological/Spiritual Usage​

• This phrase famously appears in Galatians 2:20 (KJV): "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live..."
  • He means his old self or sinful nature has been put to death.
  • It implies a spiritual transformation—ongoing and active in the present.
  • Even though the crucifixion happened in the past, its effect is still alive and present in him.

So while the event being referred to is in the past, the present tense shows that its results or significance continue right now.

So did you see that the word crucified in Gal 2:20 is in the perfect tense ? Paul was saying I had been crucified with Christ "συνεσταύρωμαι"perfect passive indicative. Look it up

 

[Johann]

So did you see that the word crucified in Gal 2:20 is in the perfect tense ? Paul was saying I had been crucified with Christ "συνεσταύρωμαι"

Tense:

Voice:

Mood:

Person:

Number:

[td]Verb[/td] [td]Perfect[/td] [td]Passive[/td] [td]Indicative[/td] [td]1st Person[/td] [td]Singular[/td]

Right-now explain this for me--When was Paul co-crucified with Messiah and who was the agent? The Middle/Passive is your answer.

J.

 

[brightfame52]

@Johann

Perfect Tense (συνεσταύρωμαι)
The perfect tense in Koine Greek denotes a completed action with continuing results or relevance in the present. It emphasizes--

A completed action in the past with continuing results in the present.

He was in the past when Christ was crucified, crucified with him

 

[Johann]

@Johann



A completed action in the past with continuing results in the present.

He was in the past when Christ was crucified, crucified with him

How far past? Before the foundation of the world? Question was WHEN was Paul co-crucified with Messiah?

Ephesians 1:4 (SBL Greek New Testament):
καθὼς ἐξελέξατο ἡμᾶς ἐν αὐτῷ πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου
"Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love."

Is this what you are saying @brightfame52?

J.

 

[synergy]

A completed action in the past with continuing results in the present.

The completed action is the Crucifixion which was in the past. That completed action has present continuous results/effects on all Christians.

He was in the past when Christ was crucified, crucified with him

We do not believe in the preexistance of souls. Sounds like you're one step away from becoming a Mormon.