Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will

Why would God call a person to believe the Truth of the Gospel when they are a reprobate and He sent them a strong delusion to believe a lie ? 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Now in contrast, the beloved chosen ones, God calls them by the Gospel to believe 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,
to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

See the But contrast from Vs 12 to Vs 13 ? Its contrasting the non elect with the elect, and instead of sending the elect a strong delusion to believe a lie, God sends the Spirit into their hearts to sanctify them unto believing the Truth of the Gospel to which they were called.
John 1:7 (LEB) — 7 This one came for a witness, in order that he could testify about the light, so that all would believe through him.

Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,

Romans 5:18 (LEB) — 18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people.

1 Timothy 2:4 (LEB) — 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
 
@Johann

1. The Strong Delusion is a Judicial Act, Not an Eternal Decree of Reprobation

It is a judicial act for the unbelief , to add to their condemnation. The purpose for God sending the reprobate the Gospel wasnt to offer them salvation, but to harden them in their native unbelief and increase their condemnation. It was sent to them on purpose to be a savor of death to them, not life 2 Cor 2:14-16

14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 ;To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
 
@Johann



It is a judicial act for the unbelief , to add to their condemnation. The purpose for God sending the reprobate the Gospel wasnt to offer them salvation, but to harden them in their native unbelief and increase their condemnation. It was sent to them on purpose to be a savor of death to them, not life 2 Cor 2:14-16

14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 ;To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
Um they were not reprobate until they refused the truth

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (LEB) — 10 and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved. 11 And because of this, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness.
 
John 1:7 (LEB) — 7 This one came for a witness, in order that he could testify about the light, so that all would believe through him.

Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,

Romans 5:18 (LEB) — 18 Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people.

1 Timothy 2:4 (LEB) — 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Why would God call a person to believe the Truth of the Gospel when they are a reprobate and He sent them a strong delusion to believe a lie ? 2 Thess 2:10-12
 
@Johann



It is a judicial act for the unbelief , to add to their condemnation. The purpose for God sending the reprobate the Gospel wasnt to offer them salvation, but to harden them in their native unbelief and increase their condemnation. It was sent to them on purpose to be a savor of death to them, not life 2 Cor 2:14-16

14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 ;To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
Your claim that God's act of sending a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) is not an eternal decree of reprobation but rather a judicial act to harden unbelievers does not support Calvinism’s concept of unconditional reprobation. Your argument assumes that the gospel is sent not as an actual offer of salvation but as a means of further condemnation. However, this view misinterprets the biblical text and the nature of God's judgment.

1. The Gospel is Genuinely Offered to All, Not Just Used to Condemn
The idea that the gospel is sent only to harden the reprobate rather than to offer salvation contradicts multiple passages that affirm God's desire for all to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:4 – "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9 – "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Ezekiel 18:23 – "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?"

If God only sent the gospel to harden the lost rather than genuinely calling them to repentance, these verses would be meaningless. The biblical pattern shows that God calls all people to salvation, but some reject that call, leading to judicial hardening—not eternal predestination to damnation.


2. The Context of 2 Corinthians 2:14-16: The Gospel’s Dual Effect
The passage you cited, 2 Corinthians 2:14-16, does show that the gospel has a twofold effect—life to those who believe, death to those who reject. However, this does not imply that the gospel is given only to condemn. Rather, it demonstrates the natural consequence of rejecting the gospel.

The phrase "savour of death unto death" means that those who reject the message bring judgment upon themselves (cf. John 3:18-19 – "he that believeth not is condemned already").

The passage does not state that God withholds the opportunity of salvation from the reprobate, nor does it teach an eternal decree of reprobation before they even had a choice.

If the gospel is only given to condemn the lost, then why does Romans 10:14-15 say:

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?"

Paul assumes that the gospel is preached so that people might believe, not just to increase condemnation.

3. Judicial Hardening is Based on Prior Rejection, Not an Eternal Decree

Your claim that the strong delusion is a judicial act, rather than an eternal decree of reprobation, is partially correct—but it contradicts Calvinism’s premise of unconditional election and reprobation.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 says God sends a strong delusion because they "received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."

The hardening comes as a result of their own rejection, meaning they had the opportunity to be saved, but they refused.

This judgment is conditional, not a decree made before creation, showing that God’s condemnation is based on human response to the gospel, not a predetermined reprobation.

This aligns with Romans 1:18-32, where Paul explains that God gives people over to their sinfulness only after they repeatedly reject the truth. The reprobate are not predestined to damnation from eternity past, but rather, they become hardened after resisting God’s call.


4. If Reprobation Were Eternal, There Would Be No Need for Judicial Hardening

If the doctrine of double predestination (eternal reprobation) were true, then God would have no need to judicially harden anyone—they would already be incapable of responding to the gospel from the start.

Judicial hardening only makes sense if there was an initial opportunity for repentance that was rejected.

This means that the reprobate are not born hardened but become hardened through continual rejection of truth.

This aligns with passages such as:

John 12:40 – "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."

This was said after repeated rejection of Christ’s message (see John 12:37 – "though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him.").

This proves that hardening is a reaction to unbelief, not a decree that predetermined their fate before birth.


The gospel is genuinely offered to all, not just as a tool for condemnation (1 Tim 2:4, 2 Pet 3:9).


2 Corinthians 2:14-16 does not teach eternal reprobation, but rather that the gospel has a dual effect based on response.

Judicial hardening occurs after persistent unbelief, showing that reprobation is conditional, not eternal (2 Thess 2:10-12).

If reprobation were eternal, there would be no need for God to harden anyone, which contradicts the need for judicial acts of hardening (John 12:40, Rom 1:18-32).

Therefore, the strong delusion in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 is not evidence of a predetermined reprobation but rather a judgment upon those who already refused to believe the truth. This fully refutes the Calvinist interpretation.
2Th 2:10 And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a misleading influence, a working of error and a strong delusion to make them believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 In order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe in [who refused to adhere to, trust in, and rely on] the Truth, but [instead] took pleasure in unrighteousness.


That they might be saved (eis to sōthēnai autous). First aorist passive infinitive of sōzō with eis to, again, epexegetic purpose of the truth if they had heeded it.

2Th_2:10 "with all the deception of wickedness" Satan tricks unbelievers (cf. Mat_13:19; 2Co_4:4) as well as believers (Eph_4:14) if they remain spiritually immature.
"they did not receive the love of the truth" This is not in the abstract sense, but a reference to

1. the person and work of Jesus, cf. Joh_14:6
2. the Spirit, cf. Joh_14:17; Joh_15:16; Joh_16:13
3. the message about Jesus, cf. Joh_17:17

"Receive" is used in 1Th_1:6; 1Th_2:13 in the sense of personally welcome as a guest. These unbelievers refused to believe the gospel and welcome Jesus.

"so as to be saved" In the OT this term meant "physical deliverance" (cf. Jas_5:15). However, in the NT it takes on spiritual/eternal significance.
2Th_2:11
NASB "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence"
NKJV "And for this reason God will send them strong delusion"
NRSV "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion"
TEV "For this reason God sends the power of error to work in them"
NJB "The reason why God is sending a power to delude them"

This is a present active indicative used as a future. The major truth here is that God is in control of all things, even Satan (cf. Job 1-2; Zechariah 3). This sending is either: (1) God's actively sending judgment on them who reject the truth (cf. Rom_11:7-10) or (2) God's passively allowing the consequences of their unbelief to become manifested in their lives (cf. Psa_81:12; Hos_4:17; Rom_1:24; Rom_1:26; Rom_1:28).

This ambiguity exists also in the OT account of Pharaoh, where it is said, Pharaoh hardened his own heart (cf. Exo_7:14; Exo_8:15; Exo_8:32), and also God hardened his heart (Exo_4:21; Exo_7:3; Exo_7:13; Exo_9:12; Exo_9:35; Exo_10:1; Exo_10:20; Exo_10:27; Exo_14:4; Exo_14:8).
The plural pronouns refer to the wicked men of 2Th_2:10.
NASB "so that they will believe"
NKJV "that they should believe"
NRSV "leading them to believe"
TEV "so that they believe"
NJB "and make them believe"

The human who refuses Christ is rejected by God (cf. Hos_5:6 c; Joh_3:17-21). This is not double predestination, but the consequences of active unbelief (cf. 1Ki_22:19-23).



Things are not going well for you brother, you have the cart before the horse and inserting YOUR eisegesis and closing the door for those in desperate need for a Savior.

You are "elect" and all of us reprobate--not good friend.

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J.
 
Um they were not reprobate until they refused the truth

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (LEB) — 10 and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved. 11 And because of this, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness.
Technically they always have been reprobate, hated by God, just as Esau b4 he was born
 
Um they were not reprobate until they refused the truth

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (LEB) — 10 and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved. 11 And because of this, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness.
They were created then born reprobate and hated by God, Esau is an example Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. God of old conceived them as vessels of wrath and to be fitted for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
 
Technically they always have been reprobate, hated by God, just as Esau b4 he was born
Let’s take a closer look at 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 and carefully examine the Greek terms and context here. You seem to be suggesting that these individuals were “always reprobate,” akin to Esau being “hated” from birth. But let’s break down the text itself and see if it really supports that idea.

Verse 10: "and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved."

The key phrase here is "did not accept" (οὐκ ἐδέξαντο), which is an aorist verb in the indicative mood, meaning it refers to a definitive action—they chose not to accept the love of the truth at a particular point in time. The verb δέχομαι ("to receive") conveys an active rejection on their part, not an inherent or predestined inability.

The passage is clear: they had the opportunity to accept the truth—but they chose not to. Paul isn’t implying that these individuals were always reprobate. Rather, he presents them as those who had the potential to be saved, if only they had received the truth.

Notice the phrase "so that they would be saved" (ἵνα σωθῶσιν). This indicates that salvation was available to them had they chosen to embrace the truth. This doesn't sound like a preordained reprobation, does it?

Verse 11: "And because of this, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie,"

The verb πέμπει ("sends") is in the present tense, indicating an ongoing action. God sends them a delusion, but notice that God’s action is a response to their rejection of the truth. This is not a case of God arbitrarily choosing to delude them for no reason. It’s a judicial act (a punishment, really) for their willful rejection of the truth.

The phrase "they will believe the lie" (πιστεύσουσιν τῷ ψεύδει) also emphasizes that their belief in the lie is a consequence of their rejection of the truth. They are not born to believe the lie but are led into deception as a result of their prior choice.

This idea aligns with what we see in the Old Testament as well: God hardens the heart of someone who has already hardened their own heart. Just as Pharaoh's heart was hardened, it was because he first chose to reject God's will. The delusion is a judgment, not a predestined state.

Verse 12: "in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness."

Now, let’s look at the purpose clause ἵνα κριθῶσιν πάντες ("so that all may be condemned"). Notice that condemnation follows directly from the fact that they did not believe the truth (οἱ μὴ πιστεύσαντες τῇ ἀληθείᾳ). The rejection of the truth is explicitly stated as the cause of their condemnation.

Here, we encounter the verb πιστεύω ("to believe"), which is in the aorist tense, indicating a one-time action—they rejected the gospel when it was presented. Again, the issue is their own decision, not some inescapable fate from birth. Delighting in unrighteousness (ἡδονὴν ἀδικίας), as Paul puts it, shows that they actively preferred unrighteousness over the truth. This isn’t about being born with a reprobate state but about their chosen path.

Now, let’s briefly talk about Esau and how his situation is often cited to support the view of reprobation. In Romans 9:13, when Paul says, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated" (Ὀ Ἰακώβ ἠγάπησα, Ἐσὰυ ἐμίσησα), the context isn’t about eternal condemnation before birth. It’s about God's sovereign choice for the covenant. Esau wasn’t rejected for personal unbelief; rather, God chose Jacob for a particular purpose (the line of the Messiah).

That’s very different from what’s happening in 2 Thessalonians 2. In Thessalonians, the focus is on the willful rejection of the gospel and its consequences, not a divine decision about election based on individuals' eternal destinies.

In summary, the rejection of the truth, as seen in 2 Thessalonians 2:10–12, is a choice made by the individuals themselves, and it is this choice that leads to their condemnation, not some predetermined reprobation. The text is clear that salvation was offered to them, but they rejected it, and as a result, God allowed them to be further deceived. There’s no support here for the idea of these individuals being "always reprobate" or "hated by God" from birth. The rejection is active on their part, and God’s judgment is a response to their own willful disobedience.

What do you think? Would you still hold that these individuals were always reprobate based on this passage?

J.
 
@Johann

Your claim that God's act of sending a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) is not an eternal decree of reprobation but rather a judicial act to harden unbelievers does not support Calvinism’s concept of unconditional reprobation. Your argument assumes that the gospel is sent not as an actual offer of salvation but as a means of further condemnation. However, this view misinterprets the biblical text and the nature of God's judgment.

You seen what I posted, it stands
 
@Johann

Let’s take a closer look at 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 and carefully examine the Greek terms and context here. You seem to be suggesting that these individuals were “always reprobate,” akin to Esau being “hated” from birth. But let’s break down the text itself and see if it really supports that idea.

Yep, they were made for the day of their destruction Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
 
They were created then born reprobate and hated by God, Esau is an example Rom 9:13

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. God of old conceived them as vessels of wrath and to be fitted for destruction Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
First you fail to exegete the text

Um they were not reprobate until they refused the truth

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (LEB) — 10 and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved. 11 And because of this, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness.

Second, you run elsewhere and fail to do proper exegesis there

The issue there is the selection of a covenant peoples not an arbitrary sellection to unconditional choose some and reprobate others regarding salvation

The election spoken of here is not a choice for eternal salvation or perdition, but God’s predetermining of the role that individuals and nations would play in this earthly life. Salvation was available for Esau and any of his descendants willing to believe God. However, the land of Canaan, the law, the tabernacle, the temple service, the promises of national blessing were all reserved for Jacob and his posterity.
Genesis 25:23 (LEB) — 23 And Yahweh said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from birth shall be divided. And one people shall be stronger than the other. And the elder shall serve the younger.”

The is the service of God Jacob (Israel) and not Esau (edom) was chosen for this service


Esau was also blessed and protected by God (Deut. 23:7, Gen. 33:8-16, Gen. 36), so the “hatred” was conditioned upon the Edomites attack upon Israel Obad 1:10



leading to the curses of Mal 1:2-3

Malachi 1:2–4 (LEB) — 2 “I have loved you,” says Yahweh, but you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is Esau not Jacob’s brother?” declares Yahweh. “I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated. I have made his mountain ranges a desolation, and given his inheritance to the jackals of the desert.” 4 If Edom says, “We are shattered, but we will return and rebuild the ruins,” Yahweh of hosts says this: “They may build, but I will tear down; and they will be called a territory of wickedness, and the people with whom Yahweh is angry forever.”

Remember Israel was elect Isa 45:4

Yet cutoff Romans 11:11-22

Yet not by God’s determination or neglect Isaiah 1:1-23; 5:1-4;65:25; Romans 10:21; Proverbs 1:24; Jeremiah 4:14; 6:8; 35:15; Matthew 21:33-43; 22:3-7; 23:34-37; Luke 9:41-42; Acts 7:51-52; 13:44-46; 28:26-28; 1Th 2:15
 
Technically they always have been reprobate, hated by God, just as Esau b4 he was born
Again, not found in the text.

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (LEB) — 10 and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved. 11 And because of this, God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth, but delighted in unrighteousness.

So this is just more eisegesis from you.
 
Why would God call a person to believe the Truth of the Gospel when they are a reprobate and He sent them a strong delusion to believe a lie ? 2 Thess 2:10-12
Um because they rejected the truth

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (NASB95) — 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Hello
 
Um because they rejected the truth

2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 (NASB95) — 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Hello
Why would God call a person to believe the Truth, and send them a strong delusion to believe a lie ? Duh Isnt that counter productive.
 
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