Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will

LOL, you God of love sat by

👍

Sat by and what? Let you be yourself?

That is why God doesn't intervene when everyone thinks He should. He lets you.... BE.... you.

Should is always part of could.

BTW.... you're no different at any level. YOU do what you want to do. You just blame God at every turn for what YOU do and how "special" you are when you're just like everyone else.
 
Who said God must do either or??

God is not obligated to do anything good toward us; there is nothing necessary in his actions, that is why salvation is by grace, he didn’t have to do it!

Salvation cannot be earned by works, because God cannot be obligated by our actions.

God is only obligated to himself and his character. Thus, if God cannot lie, all that he says is necessarily true, or else he would deny his character of being. He must save those who believe in Christ only because he said he would.


Doug
 
Last edited:
I think you know the answer to that. A God who is omniscient knows any and all possible outcomes to any possible set of circumstances. He doesn’t have to determine in order to know.

Doug
There is no possible with a omniscient God. So does simply observe the future?
 
There is no possible with a omniscient God. So does simply observe the future?
doh - Copy.gif What ARE you talking about?

This makes zero sense so perhaps that is why you have trouble understanding those who speak clearly.

God know everything because he knows everything because He is God. Even in your life I am sure there have been things you knew about one of your loved ones, assuming you have them, that you just knew.

Where do you think that the phrase "she has eyes in the back of her head " came from? Ask the kids and they will tell you mom knows all because she see everything.

Our heavenly Father knows all not because he is up there making things happen.

Our heavenly Father knows all not because he is simply observing the future.

Our heavenly Father knows all because this is His creation, and we are also created by him with certain attributes and characteristics that He instilled in us to make us basically self sufficient as a species.

Our heavenly Father also knows that many of us will want to be closer to Him and strive for that and achieve that. He also knows not all will.

Our heavenly Father did not predestine mankind as a whole. He DID preselect certain ones who carried out the necessary earthly things and the bible tells us that He chose Jeremiah. And the disciples were chosen. But every time someone is said to be chosen in the bible, it is either Jehovah or Jesus doing the choosing.

Just look at the likes of John Calvin. He was so invested in the bible with self translations and self understanding and study of the prophets he came to believe he was a prophet. But Not God or Jesus called him. Same for Ellen White and Joseph Smith, who claim to have talked to
messengers from God but these messengers did not call them prophets.

So... Not everyone... and actually a seeming few were actually called for their missions, be it prophets or just to be obedient to God...

Our heavenly father, in his wisdom did though give each their own free will to use it wisely.

Our heavenly Father also extended the offer to mankind and left it up to them to make their own choice.

Now you are going to say NOT SO because no one would choose God on their own. .. but let ,e tell you... On various forums I have run into 2 men who had the faith to believe and both of them said that they did not want to go to hell but they also , when they die, just want to cease to be.

Neither of these felt they were predestined, it is just that they believed and understood but did not want it.

Does that mean our heavenly Father is not sovereign? Certainly not.

I am going to post the condensed version from Got Questions for if it was up to me to explain I would take up 3 replies.... SEE if YOU can understand this.... MAKE SURE YOU READ THE QUOTE TO THE VERY END , AND THEN READ IT AGAIN.

God’s sovereignty is one of the most important principles in Christian theology, as well as one of its most hotly debated. Whether or not God is actually sovereign is usually not a topic of debate; all mainstream Christian sects agree that God is preeminent in power and authority. God’s sovereignty is a natural consequence of His omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. What’s subject to disagreement is to what extent God applies His sovereignty—specifically, how much control He exerts over the wills of men. When we speak of the sovereignty of God, we mean He rules the universe, but then the debate begins over when and where His control is direct and when it is indirect.
God is described in the Bible as all-powerful and all-knowing (Psalm 147:5), outside of time (Exodus 3:14; Psalm 90:2), and responsible for the creation of everything (Genesis 1:1; John 1:1). These divine traits set the minimum boundary for God’s sovereign control in the universe, which is to say that nothing in the universe occurs without God’s permission. God has the power and knowledge to prevent anything He chooses to prevent, so anything that does happen must, at the very least, be “allowed” by God.


At the same time, the Bible describes God as offering humanity choices (Deuteronomy 30:15–19), holding them personally responsible for their sins (Exodus 20:5), and being unhappy with some of their actions (Numbers 25:3). The fact that sin exists at all proves that not all things that occur are the direct actions of God, who is holy. The reality of human volition (and human accountability) sets the maximum boundary for God’s sovereign control over the universe, which is to say there is a point at which God chooses to allow things that He does not directly cause.

The fact that God is sovereign essentially means that He has the power, wisdom, and authority to do anything He chooses within His creation. Whether or not He actually exerts that level of control in any given circumstance is actually a completely different question. Often, the concept of divine sovereignty is oversimplified. We tend to assume that, if God is not directly, overtly, purposefully driving some event, then He is somehow not sovereign. The cartoon version of sovereignty depicts a God who must do anything that He can do, or else He is not truly sovereign.

Of course, such a cartoonish view of God’s sovereignty is logically false. If a man were to put an ant in a bowl, the “sovereignty” of the man over the ant is not in doubt. The ant may try to crawl out, and the man may not want this to happen. But the man is not forced to crush the ant, drown it, or pick it up. The man, for reasons of his own, may choose to let the ant crawl away, but the man is still in control. There is a difference between allowing the ant to leave the bowl and helplessly watching as it escapes. The cartoon version of God’s sovereignty implies that, if the man is not actively holding the ant inside the bowl, then he must be unable to keep it in there at all.


The illustration of the man and the ant is at least a vague parallel to God’s sovereignty over mankind. God has the ability to do anything, to take action and intervene in any situation, but He often chooses to act indirectly or to allow certain things for reasons of His own. His will is furthered in any case. God’s “sovereignty” means that He is absolute in authority and unrestricted in His supremacy. Everything that happens is, at the very least, the result of God’s permissive will. This holds true even if certain specific things are not what He would prefer. The right of God to allow mankind’s free choices is just as necessary for true sovereignty as His ability to enact His will, wherever and however He chooses.
 
Last edited:
Why would God call a person to believe the Truth of the Gospel when they are a reprobate and He sent them a strong delusion to believe a lie ? 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Now in contrast, the beloved chosen ones, God calls them by the Gospel to believe 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,
to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

See the But contrast from Vs 12 to Vs 13 ? Its contrasting the non elect with the elect, and instead of sending the elect a strong delusion to believe a lie, God sends the Spirit into their hearts to sanctify them unto believing the Truth of the Gospel to which they were called.
 
Why would God call a person to believe the Truth of the Gospel when they are a reprobate and He sent them a strong delusion to believe a lie ? 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Now in contrast, the beloved chosen ones, God calls them by the Gospel to believe 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel,
to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

See the But contrast from Vs 12 to Vs 13 ? Its contrasting the non elect with the elect, and instead of sending the elect a strong delusion to believe a lie, God sends the Spirit into their hearts to sanctify them unto believing the Truth of the Gospel to which they were called.
Your argument assumes that the non-elect are never genuinely offered salvation and that 2 Thessalonians 2:10–12 describes an immutable state from birth rather than a judicial hardening in response to prior unbelief. However, Scripture consistently teaches that God calls all people to repentance and faith before judgment is executed.

1. The Strong Delusion is a Judicial Act, Not an Eternal Decree of Reprobation
The passage states "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved" (2 Thess 2:10). This clearly indicates that the truth was available to them, and they were given the opportunity to receive it. Their rejection precedes God's judicial action of sending the delusion. This aligns with Romans 1:18-25, where God "gave them over" only after they "exchanged the truth of God for a lie."

2Th 2:10 And by unlimited seduction to evil and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing (going to perdition) because they did not welcome the Truth but refused to love it that they might be saved.

God's pattern throughout Scripture is to offer truth first, then confirm people in their chosen path when they reject it.

Pharaoh hardened his heart before God hardened him (Exod 8:15, 8:32, 9:34; cf. Rom 9:17-18). Likewise, Israel was hardened after repeated rejection of Christ (John 12:37-40; Rom 11:7-8).

If the non-elect were never offered salvation, then they could not be guilty of rejecting it.


Yet Paul explicitly states that they "might have been saved" (2 Thess 2:10), but refused the truth. This is not about an eternal decree of reprobation, but about God’s righteous judgment in response to willful unbelief.

2. God’s Call to Salvation is Universal Before Hardening Occurs
You contrast verses 12 and 13 as if they present two eternally fixed groups—one permanently reprobate and the other eternally elect. However, Scripture teaches that God calls all people to salvation, and those who reject that call bring judgment upon themselves.

Isaiah 45:22 – "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other."

Ezekiel 18:23 – "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says the Lord GOD: and not that he should turn from his ways and live?"

Matthew 11:28 – "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

If the non-elect were never truly offered salvation, then passages like these become meaningless. The entire biblical narrative shows that God calls all people to repent, and their rejection leads to hardening (Acts 17:30; Rom 2:4-5).

3. The Gospel is the Means of Salvation for All Who Believe
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 does indeed describe God's work in believers, but it does not state that God never called the non-elect. Rather, it affirms that the chosen are sanctified through belief in the truth. But what does Paul say is the means of calling? "Whereunto he called you by our gospel."

The gospel is the universal call to salvation (Mark 16:15; John 3:16; Rom 1:16).

If God only calls the elect and never calls the non-elect, then why does Paul say, "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor 5:19)?

The gospel call goes out to all, and those who reject it are responsible for their own hardening (John 3:19-20; Acts 13:46).

4. The ‘But’ Contrast Does Not Establish Eternal Reprobation

The contrast in verses 12-13 does not mean that God never called those who perished. Rather, it highlights the difference between those who rejected the truth and were hardened (v. 12) and those who believed and were sanctified (v. 13).

The contrast is in response to their faith or unbelief, not a pre-temporal decree of reprobation.

The key distinction is that God's election is realized through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth (v. 13). If election were unconditional and fixed apart from faith, Paul would not include belief of the truth as a necessary means. Instead, the elect are those who respond in faith, whereas the non-elect are those who reject the truth and are consequently hardened.

God Calls All to Salvation, but Hardens the Willfully Rebellious

Your argument assumes that God never calls the non-elect to salvation, yet 2 Thessalonians 2:10 explicitly says they might have been saved if they had received the truth. Scripture repeatedly shows that God's judgment follows human rejection, not an arbitrary decree of reprobation. The gospel is preached to all, and those who believe are sanctified, while those who reject are eventually hardened.

Key cross-references:

Ezekiel 33:11 – "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live."

Acts 17:30 – "God now commands all men everywhere to repent."

Romans 10:13-14 – "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?"

John 12:35-40 – Hardening comes only after persistent unbelief.

God’s call is universal, but those who reject it bring judgment upon themselves. The contrast in 2 Thessalonians 2:12-13 does not establish unconditional reprobation, but rather the consequence of belief versus rejection.

Nothing here about the elect and non-elect @brightfame52 and you are butchering the Scriptures making it impossible for those to come to Messiah and experience eternal life..

What a shame!

J.
 
Back
Top Bottom