Arminian perspective on Gods Sovereignty and mans free will

[TibiasDad]

What you expect, Im posting and explaining my view. If a person doesnt understand, they will ask a million questions and never understand.

I would expect an as detailed and systematic a response as to why, in your opinion, the argument is invalidated.

You see, most people don’t accept a position simply because you say so. The argument against you is a valid, systematic approach to the question. All we want from you is why, specifically, you don’t agree.

There is no lack of understanding of your argument, at least on my part, and I don’t think @Johann is flummoxed either.


Doug

 

[TomL]

Why would God call a person to believe the Truth, and send them a strong delusion to believe a lie ? Duh Isnt that counter productive.

Not when they have already rejected the truth.

Read the text.

 

[Presby02]

View attachment 1584 What ARE you talking about?

This makes zero sense so perhaps that is why you have trouble understanding those who speak clearly.

God know everything because he knows everything because He is God. Even in your life I am sure there have been things you knew about one of your loved ones, assuming you have them, that you just knew.

Where do you think that the phrase "she has eyes in the back of her head " came from? Ask the kids and they will tell you mom knows all because she see everything.

Our heavenly Father knows all not because he is up there making things happen.

Our heavenly Father knows all not because he is simply observing the future.

Our heavenly Father knows all because this is His creation, and we are also created by him with certain attributes and characteristics that He instilled in us to make us basically self sufficient as a species.

Our heavenly Father also knows that many of us will want to be closer to Him and strive for that and achieve that. He also knows not all will.

Our heavenly Father did not predestine mankind as a whole. He DID preselect certain ones who carried out the necessary earthly things and the bible tells us that He chose Jeremiah. And the disciples were chosen. But every time someone is said to be chosen in the bible, it is either Jehovah or Jesus doing the choosing.

Just look at the likes of John Calvin. He was so invested in the bible with self translations and self understanding and study of the prophets he came to believe he was a prophet. But Not God or Jesus called him. Same for Ellen White and Joseph Smith, who claim to have talked to
messengers from God but these messengers did not call them prophets.

So... Not everyone... and actually a seeming few were actually called for their missions, be it prophets or just to be obedient to God...

Our heavenly father, in his wisdom did though give each their own free will to use it wisely.

Our heavenly Father also extended the offer to mankind and left it up to them to make their own choice.

Now you are going to say NOT SO because no one would choose God on their own. .. but let ,e tell you... On various forums I have run into 2 men who had the faith to believe and both of them said that they did not want to go to hell but they also , when they die, just want to cease to be.

Neither of these felt they were predestined, it is just that they believed and understood but did not want it.

Does that mean our heavenly Father is not sovereign? Certainly not.

I am going to post the condensed version from Got Questions for if it was up to me to explain I would take up 3 replies.... SEE if YOU can understand this.... MAKE SURE YOU READ THE QUOTE TO THE VERY END , AND THEN READ IT AGAIN.

Perhaps it is you who does not understand. I will dumb it down for you.God is omniscient. He knows all that is logically possible to know. So if the number of the elect He has known for a eternity, it is not possible for that number to change. The future is set in stone from God's perspective.

 

[Presby02]

He simply knows. Your position reduces God’s ability to that which we can explain; God is bigger than my capacity to explain. He knows all that is, will be and could be. How he does that is not for me to comprehend or explain.


Doug

So is God bound by what He simply knows?

 

[MTMattie]

Is that all you do is guess

From one who is always saying it is scriptural... MY WORDING< NOT YOURS... I should think that an honest answer of "I guess" when I was not there..unless you were and can dispute things... seems reasonable

You are the one who wrote in 571 above 4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

You are the one suggesting the Lord made even the wicked for the day of evil and since there was certainly an evil serpent who enticed Eve
then the Lord had to have made that happen.

I see you do not disagree... you are just questioning my saying I guess.

Therefore only conclusion is that YOU are confirming what I am surmising.....
You see, @brightfame52 .... If there is nothing in thew written word to backup what I say... I would never dream to
twist words to my own understanding... I cannot help but wonder if this is self fulfilling?
"The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

What say you?

 

[TibiasDad]

So is God bound by what He simply knows?

God is not bound by anything but his own character and being.


Doug

 

[civic]

God is not bound by anything but his own character and being.


Doug

Amen

 

[brightfame52]

I would expect an as detailed and systematic a response as to why, in your opinion, the argument is invalidated.

You see, most people don’t accept a position simply because you say so. The argument against you is a valid, systematic approach to the question. All we want from you is why, specifically, you don’t agree.

There is no lack of understanding of your argument, at least on my part, and I don’t think @Johann is flummoxed either.


Doug

I would never waste my time giving you such a response, I dont labor like that for people who oppose the Gospel

 

[brightfame52]

Not when they have already rejected the truth.

Read the text.

He ordained for them to reject the truth, that's by Gods appointment as well 1 Pet 2:8

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
So those whom God appointed to unbelief/disobey, He turns around and judges them for the unbelief 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 ;And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 ;That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The only reason why God sends the reprobate the Gospel is to increase and add to their just damnation friend.

 

[brightfame52]

@MTMattie

You are the one who wrote in 571 above 4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Correct which He did. He didnt make them for Glory, like He did the vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Im not guessing

 

[TibiasDad]

I would never waste my time giving you such a response, I dont labor like that for people who oppose the Gospel

Then that tells me what your heart is like. I will pray for you.

Doug

 

[MTMattie]

@MTMattie



Correct which He did. He didnt make them for Glory, like He did the vessels of mercy Rom 9:23

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Im not guessing

Ergo: He made Adam and Eve for the roles they carried out.

He started his plan that way.

 

[brightfame52]

Ergo: He made Adam and Eve for the roles they carried out.

He started his plan that way.

Im not speaking about Adam and Eve per se. However there are people who God made for the specific purpose of enduring His Wrath for sin, versus People He specifically made to experience salvation from their sins and inherit Glory

 

[TomL]

He ordained for them to reject the truth, that's by Gods appointment as well 1 Pet 2:8

And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
So those whom God appointed to unbelief/disobey, He turns around and judges them for the unbelief 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 ;And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 ;That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The only reason why God sends the reprobate the Gospel is to increase and add to their just damnation friend.

Sorry nowhere was it stated God ordained them to reject the truth

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (LEB) — 10 and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved.

They are perishing because they did not accept a love of truth

Nothing is stated about God ordaining this.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry nowhere was it stated God ordained them to reject the truth

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (LEB) — 10 and with every unrighteous deception against those who are perishing, in place of which they did not accept the love of the truth, so that they would be saved.

They are perishing because they did not accept a love of truth

Nothing is stated about God ordaining this.

The unbelieving non elect was appointed to that, appointed to stumble at the word of Christ, and then God Judicially blinds them for not receiving the truth. 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Presby02]

God is not bound by anything but his own character and being.


Doug

Right, He is not bound by simply knowing the future which cannot change otherwise He would not be omniscient.

 

[TomL]

The unbelieving non elect was appointed to that, appointed to stumble at the word of Christ, and then God Judicially blinds them for not receiving the truth. 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Again you omit the reason they were sent, a strong delusion.

because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Over and over, verse after verse, your theology is seen contrary to the word of God

 

[MTMattie]

The unbelieving non elect was appointed to that, appointed to stumble at the word of Christ, and then God Judicially blinds them for not receiving the truth. 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Sigh. Ho hum. Woe is me. Sometimes some people deserve to be smacked upside the head. Ya know any?

2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;

Paul says that Antichrist will come with “all deceivableness of unrighteousness.” The word “deceive” means to trick someone, but people are tricked by different things. The deceivableness of youth can make you fall for things you wouldn’t fall for if you were older and wiser.. But the deceivableness of unrighteousness comes from being unrighteous, unsaved. It makes men fall for things they wouldn’t fall for if they were saved, even things as silly as the Big Bang Theory, or evolution.

10............. because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And why did they not receive that love of truth? Because they were deceived . And how were they deceived? FREE WILL.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

The Holy Word makes it clear why God is sending a strong delusion in the end times: “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.... And this delusion is needed because of their free will wickedness.

Simply put, God sends a strong delusion to those who choose not to believe the gospel of Christ. Those who take delight in mocking and rejecting Him, He will condemn. They have a choice.

It IS a person’s choice whether to accept and believe the truth of Jesus Christ as presented in the Scriptures. To receive the truth and the love God offers is in keeping with its teachings, “This is love for God: to obey His commands” (see1 John 5:3). Conversely, to know the truth and not obey it is to face the wrath of God: “The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness” (see Romans 1:18).

Frankly speaking, there is no more dangerous condition for man than to know the truth and refuse to obey it. To do so is to harden the heart and make God’s condemnation sure.

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

When people know the truth and refuse to receive it, when they refuse to obey it and hold it in unrighteousness, “they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth” (see 2 Thessalonians 2:12 )

Hence God, the Heavenly Father will send them delusions, for it is also by their free will they just might have a self change of heart and He is not having any of they.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Nothing as God does not meticulously control everything. Some things but not all things.

Amen

He created mankind. Gave mankind everythign he needed.

Mankind chose to go his own way.

But God loved him he did not leave him stranded. so he devised a plan to save mankind even before man was created. Knowing he would fail (man not God)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

A very erudite response.


Doug

normal from the user