James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Titus]

THEOLOGICAL ERROR

The church of Christ gospel plan is to hear, believe, repent, confess, and be (water) baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Here it is reasoned that if one will simply accomplish these “5 steps,” the believer will thereby save himself.
Notice that this plan places faith before repentance

This is a bold faced lie.
No one saves themselves by merit.
No amount of works one can do can merit salvation.
We are saved by grace.
Gods grace is conditional.
Condition is one must be obedient to Jesus' gospel to receive grace.
That means when God commands belief, repentance, confession baptism.
The only way to be saved by grace is to obey Jesus' gospel.
Gods grace is not offered to the disobedient.

Dan is now engaging in defamation. Slander public false claims about someone's beliefs.
Libel: written false claims of someone's beliefs.

Dan has hit rock bottom. He is now telling lies about what I believe.
I will never ever teach one can work His way to heaven in some ridiculous merit based works salvation.

Dan, I really feel sorry for you that this is what you have choosen to do.
Character assassination by bearing false witness against me.

I would never accuse you of teaching a doctrine that you do not believe in nor teach.
Shamefull Sir.

 

[Titus]

Notice that this plan places faith before repentance

Correct. Repentance preceding faith is illogical nonsense.

Psychological Error​

One cannot repent before he believes.
Faith must come first before one has the understanding he is guilty of his sins.
Only then when one believes that Christ died for his sins, was buried and rose from the dead in the greatest self sacrifice one could make, does one develop godly sorrow for their sins against their Savior.

Psychological impossibility

First of all it must be noted that for repentance to precede faith would be psychologically impossible!!!!
One cannot possibly repent before he believes.
This is absurdity an impossible doctrine that is defended in vain.
Let me note some of the absurdities.

Suppose you were trying to convert an atheist, one who does not believe God exists. What would you do first? Would you try to persuade him to believe or to repent?
It would be impossible to get the man to repent in the Biblical sense of the term.
Repentance is produced by godly sorrow.
How could one have godly sorrow before he believed that there is a God?

2 Corinthians 7:10,
- for godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation....

Repentance is produced by the goodness of God.
No belief in God.
No belief in the goodness of God, sacrifice on the cross.
No belief in God suffering for us to save us. And that our sins put Him on the cross.
Logically follows no godly sorrow.
No godly sorrow from belief in Christ.
No repentance.

In the true sense of repentance no unbelievers could have godly sorrow that leads to repentance until they become believers.

In Luke 15:7 we read,
- I say to you that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth more than over ninety nine just persons which need no repentance

One could not repent if repentance precedes faith. If he could not then repentance and believing must be one synonymous act, and if it is, then all the lengthy discussions by denominational preachers have been foolishness, for there could be no order of faith and repentance.
One could not precede the other!!!!!
The Bible teaches there is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner that repents but in Hebrews 11:6 it reads,
- but without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he that cometh to God must believe..

We have this dilemma. If Dan's doctrine be true that repentance precedes belief.
We have angels rejoicing in heaven over a man that has repented but God not pleased with him because he has yet to believe.
This doctrine Dan has bought into is folly.

Dont believe me yet?
Further read James 2:19,
- thou believest there is one God thou doest well, the devils also believe and tremble

Now if Dan's religion is correct and repentance precedes faith.
Then it must be admitted that the demons also repented!!!!

According to denominational dogma repentance and belief is all that is required for salvation.

When one has heard the gospel he either becomes a believer or continues in unbelief.
The only way a person can repent is if he first becomes a believer from hearing the gospel.
Romans 10:17,
- so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

Conclusion: It is a Biblical fact that godly sorrow produces repentance.
Therefore one must first believe in God in order to have sorrow for the sins they've commited against God.
Only then can godly sorrow produce a repentant heart in the believer.

Biblical order of the steps of salvation.
Hear
Believe
Repent
Confession
Baptism


No, you do not.
Matthew 22:29

 

[Titus]

“Faith” in the churches of Christ is understood as ‘intellectual assent” or accepting the facts of the Christian faith conjoined with works.

Wrong. You dont know what I believe.
Stop making stuff up!!!

Faith in most new testament verses is literally the system of faith. Also referred to as the gospel of Jesus Christ.

No one and I mean no one in the churches of Christ believe faith is intellectual assent.
The only time mental assent is taught is when faith is by itself, apart from Grace.
belief in God but no obedience to God is mental assent.

Saving faith is never just mental assent.
Saving faith always produces obedience in order to be saved and to remain saved.

This is why it is impossible to be saved by belief alone.
Faith alone has no obedience to any commandments.
Belief alone is true mental assent.

Trust in Jesus always results in doing what He says.
Claims one has trust in Jesus with belief only and no obedience to Gods commandments is a fallacy.
You cannot have trusting faith if you do not do what God commands you to do.

True faith trusts therefore obeys the gospel.
Jesus' gospel has commandments. And true believers will obey these commandments.
Hebrews 5:8-9.
John 3:36.
Matthew 7:21.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Wrong. You dont know what I believe.
Stop making stuff up!!!

Faith in most new testament verses is literally the system of faith. Also referred to as the gospel of Jesus Christ.

No one and I mean no one in the churches of Christ believe faith is intellectual assent.
The only time mental assent is taught is when faith is by itself, apart from Grace.
belief in God but no obedience to God is mental assent.

Saving faith is never just mental assent.
Saving faith always produces obedience in order to be saved and to remain saved.

1. Then why are you not obeying? I keep asking this of people and they just ignore me.
2. I do know you because I know me. What do you have that I don't have?
3. I know you better than you know you because I know me better than you know yourself.

All these questions I'm asking prove it and you're just ignoring it.

All this "obey" nonsense means nothing if you're not obeying God yourself. It is nothing but hypocritical nonsense designed to trap and trick others. Even worse is you're believing your own "fairy tale" theology.

So. Start with #1 and lets begin this "exposure" of the hypocrisy that lives at every level within this "theology" you have......

You don't have the ability to obey without failure and you think that all you have to do when you "fail" is ask God to forgive you and you start right back over in this vicious cycle your theology produces. This theology you have causes you to endlessly judge others for the same things you do yourself while insisting that these "others" are not saved.

It really is sad. Horribly sad at all many levels to see this kind of nonsense ignored.

Certainly do as you please but don't be intellectually dishonest in such a manner.

So again. Why don't you obey when you're demanding obedience from others?

Paul was brutal in his take down of those who believe they're doing more for God than their neighbor.

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

The purpose of laws that have no origin in the hearts of men is to foster a self awareness in mankind that they may see themselves guilty.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

There is no guilt before such eyes.

There is no such thing as a meaningful faith without an intellectual ascent of the mind to the point of TRUSTING... God.

Obey..... Obey..... Obey.

Well. Why you not obeying? God has concluded all under sin that he might have mercy upon us all. We are no different in this.

 

[praise_yeshua]

To the contrary, when we consider this in light of the Scriptures, we find repentanceactually preceding Faith:

“…you did not repent and believe him.” Matt. 21:32

“Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

“…repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” Acts 20:21

These verses make it clear that repentance actually precedes faith.

Not true.

You are selective referencing verses that you think make your case for you. I'll just share one that destroys your conclusion.

Luk 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

I've shared this already in this thread without nothing but silence in return.

There are plenty more to find.......

 

[Titus]

1. Then why are you not obeying? I keep asking this of people and they just ignore me.
2. I do know you because I know me. What do you have that I don't have?
3. I know you better than you know you because I know me better than you know yourself.

All these questions I'm asking prove it and you're just ignoring it.

All this "obey" nonsense means nothing if you're not obeying God yourself. It is nothing but hypocritical nonsense designed to trap and trick others. Even worse is you're believing your own "fairy tale" theology.

So. Start with #1 and lets begin this "exposure" of the hypocrisy that lives at every level within this "theology" you have......

You don't have the ability to obey without failure and you think that all you have to do when you "fail" is ask God to forgive you and you start right back over in this vicious cycle your theology produces. This theology you have causes you to endlessly judge others for the same things you do yourself while insisting that these "others" are not saved.

It really is sad. Horribly sad at all many levels to see this kind of nonsense ignored.

Certainly do as you please but don't be intellectually dishonest in such a manner.

So again. Why don't you obey when you're demanding obedience from others?

Paul was brutal in his take down of those who believe they're doing more for God than their neighbor.

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

The purpose of laws that have no origin in the hearts of men is to foster a self awareness in mankind that they may see themselves guilty.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

There is no guilt before such eyes.

There is no such thing as a meaningful faith without an intellectual ascent of the mind to the point of TRUSTING... God.

Obey..... Obey..... Obey.

Well. Why you not obeying? God has concluded all under sin that he might have mercy upon us all. We are no different in this.

Proverbs 15:2,
- the tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness

Proverbs 26:4-5

 

[praise_yeshua]

Proverbs 15:2,
- the tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness

Proverbs 26:4-5

So asking you why you're not obeying is the question of a "fool"?

 

[FreeInChrist]

The word means is defined as follows:
In simply terms how things get done. How something is accomplished.
Therefore the means is the method, instrument or channel by which something is accomplished.

Paul says he played a part in their salvation by teaching them the gospel.
The gospel itself was the means by which they were saved.


How foolish to teach Paul had no part in their coming to Christ when He literally has God(the Holy Spirit) teaching them how to be saved. God is teaching them how to be saved through Paul who is Holy Spirit baptized, therefore God speaks through him.

To claim Paul played no part in their salvation is the same as saying the Holy Spirit played no part in their salvation.
More absurd denominational teaching.

But also,
Red Baker is on here teaching. What for? He just taught Paul's teaching played no part in their salvation.
So why does Red Baker contradict his own doctrine and try to persuade me with his teaching?

You see calvinism creates logical illiterates.
Red Baker has been forced into illogical reasoning. Which isn't reason. Its rejecting logical conclusions.
People like Calvinist's who either dont understand or refuse to accept the basic rules of reasoning- such as cause and effect, instrumentality or plain word meaning- especially when interpreting Scripture.

Cannot ever come to understand simple to understand passages.
Their theology will not allow it.

1 Corinthians 4:15,
- or though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ yet have not many fathers for  in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel

Examples,
He traveled by means of a bicycle.
The bicycle is the means he used to travel.
He used the bicycle as a tool or method to reach his destination.

God saved us by means of the gospel.
The gospel is the means or instrument God uses to bring salvation.
God is the cause. The gospel is the method or tool He used.

In Bible context:
When Paul says - I have begotten you through the gospel, 1Corinthians 4:15 he means the gospel was the means by which they were spiritually born again.
It was not Paul himself, and not some mysterious event apart from the message, calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace.
It was the gospel message God used.

Look at the word  through

- I have begotten you through the gospel.
The word through here is by means of.
Or the instrument used to bring about salvation.

- I have begotten you through( by means of) the gospel

The gospel is the means, the instrument, the method, the vehicle God uses to save.

So when Paul says I have begotten you through the gospel, he is saying their new birth came as a result of hearing the gospel that produced their faith in Christ.

Red Baker tries to prove that they were already saved before they believed the gospel.
He rejects the gospel. He does not believe in the gospel nor does he teach the gospel.

Romans 10:17,
- faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God(gospel).

salvation never precedes faith in the Bible.
Calvinism is unbiblical heresy.

The word means is defined as follows:
In simply terms how things get done. How something is accomplished.
Therefore the means is the method, instrument or channel by which something is accomplished.

Paul says he played a part in their salvation by teaching them the gospel.
The gospel itself was the means by which they were saved.


How foolish to teach Paul had no part in their coming to Christ when He literally has God(the Holy Spirit) teaching them how to be saved. God is teaching them how to be saved through Paul who is Holy Spirit baptized, therefore God speaks through him.

To claim Paul played no part in their salvation is the same as saying the Holy Spirit played no part in their salvation.
More absurd denominational teaching.

But also,
Red Baker is on here teaching. What for? He just taught Paul's teaching played no part in their salvation.
So why does Red Baker contradict his own doctrine and try to persuade me with his teaching?

You see calvinism creates logical illiterates.
Red Baker has been forced into illogical reasoning. Which isn't reason. Its rejecting logical conclusions.
People like Calvinist's who either dont understand or refuse to accept the basic rules of reasoning- such as cause and effect, instrumentality or plain word meaning- especially when interpreting Scripture.

Cannot ever come to understand simple to understand passages.
Their theology will not allow it.

1 Corinthians 4:15,
- or though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ yet have not many fathers for  in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel

Examples,
He traveled by means of a bicycle.
The bicycle is the means he used to travel.
He used the bicycle as a tool or method to reach his destination.

God saved us by means of the gospel.
The gospel is the means or instrument God uses to bring salvation.
God is the cause. The gospel is the method or tool He used.

In Bible context:
When Paul says - I have begotten you through the gospel, 1Corinthians 4:15 he means the gospel was the means by which they were spiritually born again.
It was not Paul himself, and not some mysterious event apart from the message, calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace.
It was the gospel message God used.

Look at the word  through

- I have begotten you through the gospel.
The word through here is by means of.
Or the instrument used to bring about salvation.

- I have begotten you through( by means of) the gospel

The gospel is the means, the instrument, the method, the vehicle God uses to save.

So when Paul says I have begotten you through the gospel, he is saying their new birth came as a result of hearing the gospel that produced their faith in Christ.

Red Baker tries to prove that they were already saved before they believed the gospel.
He rejects the gospel. He does not believe in the gospel nor does he teach the gospel.

Romans 10:17,
- faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God(gospel).

salvation never precedes faith in the Bible.
Calvinism is unbiblical heresy.

I just have one side question, please. And note I am anti-Calvin type thinking.

You say: The gospel is the means, the instrument, the method, the vehicle God uses to save.
Paul says he played a part in their salvation by teaching them the gospel.
The gospel itself was the means by which they were saved.

What happens if there is no physical gospel to read, and no one to teach or preach it?

Dont jump on me.

I am suggesting when the US pioneers were crossing this land, often times they set up by just one
or two farms or ranches, without even so much as a traveling minister.

That kind of thing.

Would they have no hope?

A simple yes or no works right now. I do not need explanation.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The best part of waking up is Folgers in your cup.

THEOLOGICAL ERROR

The church of Christ gospel plan is to hear, believe, repent, confess, and be (water) baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Here it is reasoned that if one will simply accomplish these “5 steps,” the believer will thereby save himself.
Notice that this plan places faith before repentance.

You need to amend your baptise for the forgivness of sins to they believe without baptism you CAN NOT be saved.

Many a heated debate with them had 10 or 11 (I have lost count) tell me I will not ever be saved if I dont have a "saving" immersion.

To those in the churches of Christ, this is common sense because it is believed that ‘one must believe before he can repent.’ This view arises from their understanding of both “faith” and “repentance.”

“Faith” in the churches of Christ is understood as ‘intellectual assent” or accepting the facts of the Christian faith conjoined with works. To them it is believing God’s historical testimony about Himself, Jesus Christ, and that of the rest of the Bible + they "add" their works.

Repentance on the other hand is understood as moral self-reformation + works.

In regards to faith, those in the churches of Christ often fail to understand that there is a deeper, more substantive aspect of faith which is believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life, and most cannot distinguish between mere intellectual belief or assent from a personal faith that is trusting or resting on Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Here, they will cite that “even the devils believe” (from James 2:19) in their sermons and will contend that even the "faith of devils" is the same as any other faith except that the faith of devils lacks any moral or religious good works.

Thus, their understanding gives rise to their reversal of the scriptural order of repentance and faith, and yet as we will find, there is not a single scripture in the New Testament to support their view.

To the contrary, when we consider this in light of the Scriptures, we find repentanceactually preceding Faith:

“…you did not repent and believe him.” Matt. 21:32

“Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15

“…repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.” Acts 20:21

These verses make it clear that repentance actually precedes faith.

 

[Titus]

The Scriptures never define belief alone as trust

John 3:36,
- whoever believes(action taken) in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not  obey the Son shall not see life

The Greek here contrasts believing with not obeying showing that trusting faith always includes obedience to Jesus.

Proverbs 3:5,
- trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding

Trust involves commitment, dependance, and submission.

James 2:17-19,
- faith by itself(belief alone) if it does not have works(obedience) is dead...even the demons believe and shudder

Merely believing truths about God is not biblical trust or saving faith.

Can one trust without doing anything?
Saying I trust this chair will hold me but not sitting in it is not trust by empty profession of faith.

Noah built the ark.
Moses left comfort to live with Gods people.
Abraham left his home land.
True faith acts. Those actions prove trust.
No actions then claiming one trusted in Jesus s an empty proclamation with no evidence.

Matthew 7:21,
- not everyone that says to Me Lord, Lord, shall enter Into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of My Father in heaven

Saying you trust Jesus but do nothing is not real trust.

Some folks believe in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2) I stand by the gospel and teach that saving belief continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Sadly, many make believers think they are genuine believers but are deceived.

Notice even faith onlyist's believe true faith produces works of obedience.
And faith that never produces fruit is not true Biblical saving faith.
Yet they try to be saved by belief alone( faith that has no works of obedience).
Faith alone salvation contradicts itself. It is logically flawed. Therefore it cannot be from God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I just have one side question, please. And note I am anti-Calvin type thinking.

You say: The gospel is the means, the instrument, the method, the vehicle God uses to save.
Paul says he played a part in their salvation by teaching them the gospel.
The gospel itself was the means by which they were saved.

What happens if there is no physical gospel to read, and no one to teach or preach it?

Dont jump on me.

I am suggesting when the US pioneers were crossing this land, often times they set up by just one
or two farms or ranches, without even so much as a traveling minister.

That kind of thing.

Would they have no hope?

A simple yes or no works right now. I do not need explanation.

I hope it is okay if I answer as well. Just ignore me if it isn't.

This is more complicated than just a yes or no answer. You are describing situations that do not all have the same cause or circumstances.

Generally speaking, such are not without hope. However, it isn't like those in these circumstance would just get a "free pass". Those that "have not heard" and "will not hear" because of the failures of their fathers to continue the Gospel in their own lives do not have a right or obligation to the message of Eternal Life.

What every human being of all generation do have is the very witness of nature and their surroundings to the point they are without excuse. The Gospel details the "Person" of Salvation". The message of Jesus Christ. It is detailed and necessary but it is also received literally through nature or natural things. Language. Texts. Words of men.

This nonsense that exists in Calvinism is so utterly preposterous concerning "personal revelation" is just plan wrong and offensive to the simplest of understandings.

We all need each other. Especially in learning the basic functions of life and communication. A child left to himself will bring his mother to shame. There is a natural order and boundaries that exists in this life for all peoples of all generations.

We have the witness in the Scriptures of the first Gentiles that accepted Jesus Christ in the book of Acts. These people "waited for God" and "believed in a god" they didn't know. A god they hadn't even heard about. It is why Paul said these words...

Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

The message that followed wasn't presented in the manner Paul would have given to those who had previous "heard" about the real God of humanity. Paul didn't appeal to a single verse of Scripture. Not one. Paul did appeal to their own writers. People they would trust.

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

They also have the witness of the goodness of God our Creator.

Act 14:17 Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

They can have the basic's of faith without full knowledge that we have today.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The Scriptures never define belief alone as trust

John 3:36,
- whoever believes(action taken) in the Son has eternal life, whoever does not  obey the Son shall not see life

The Greek here contrasts believing with not obeying showing that trusting faith always includes obedience to Jesus.

Proverbs 3:5,
- trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding

Trust involves commitment, dependance, and submission.

James 2:17-19,
- faith by itself(belief alone) if it does not have works(obedience) is dead...even the demons believe and shudder

Merely believing truths about God is not biblical trust or saving faith.

Can one trust without doing anything?
Saying I trust this chair will hold me but not sitting in it is not trust by empty profession of faith.

Noah built the ark.
Moses left comfort to live with Gods people.
Abraham left his home land.
True faith acts. Those actions prove trust.
No actions then claiming one trusted in Jesus s an empty proclamation with no evidence.

Matthew 7:21,
- not everyone that says to Me Lord, Lord, shall enter Into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of My Father in heaven

Saying you trust Jesus but do nothing is not real trust.


Notice even faith onlyist's believe true faith produces works of obedience.
And faith that never produces fruit is not true Biblical saving faith.
Yet they try to be saved by belief alone( faith that has no works of obedience).
Faith alone salvation contradicts itself. It is logically flawed. Therefore it cannot be from God.

You're misrepresenting the proper position. You don't understand it as well as you think you do.

What do you obey? Faith does produce obedience but it is what you obey that matters. You think obeying some "laws" you prefer is the proper sign of obedience when that is nothing but a load of manure.

Did you know faith has it's OWN law?

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

So Einstein. Teacher. Leader of the blind.....

Just what is this "law of faith" that you must obey?

 

[Titus]

I just have one side question, please. And note I am anti-Calvin type thinking.

You say: The gospel is the means, the instrument, the method, the vehicle God uses to save.
Paul says he played a part in their salvation by teaching them the gospel.
The gospel itself was the means by which they were saved.

What happens if there is no physical gospel to read, and no one to teach or preach it?

Dont jump on me.

I am suggesting when the US pioneers were crossing this land, often times they set up by just one
or two farms or ranches, without even so much as a traveling minister.

That kind of thing.

Would they have no hope?

A simple yes or no works right now. I do not need explanation.

Nothing wrong with asking this question. It is a good reasonable question to ponder.

Unfortunately I cannot give Yes or No because I believe it could be both.

Christianity is a taught religion.
God does not directly teach anyone today like He did in the old testament or in the 1st century.
Paul was directly told what to do partly by Jesus.
Jesus will not directly show Himsef to some one today.
Partly because Jesus told Ananias what to say to Paul.

So God directly and a man told Paul what he must do.
Today the gospel is spread from man to man.
Jesus' great commission, Matthew 28:18-20.

People today that may have never had the gospel shared with them is Gods dealings.
If I claim I know for a fact they are going to hell. I believe I'm widdling on Gods end of the stick.
I simply must leave these matters up to God. He is the judge in these matters.

This is wisdom:
God gave us His word.
His word is His plan on saving man.
If you are exposed to it, that is a blessing.
If not then being ignorant of the Bible would be better than to have known it if ignorance can save.

Friend, God does not send people to hell because of ignorance.
God sends people to hell because of sin.

Question: Has God provided for me and you His gospel?
Yes He has.
So we have no excuse to not seek to know the true. John 17:17.
God promises those who are poor in spirit will, be saved.

Alot of these questions are nothing more than trying to find a loop hole from having to do what God commands us to do.
Like, what if your in an airplane and it's going to crash. How can you get baptized?
This question does not escape the fact that Jesus taught only those who are born of water and the Spirit will enter the kingdom of heaven.

So if you have learned the gospel it would be absolutely foolish to try and come up with a what if scenario to justify not doing what the gospel plainly says to do.

If the person on the plain knew he should be baptized. Then he knew and put it off until now it's too late. Should anyone complain that God is not fair to that man?
Obviously it's the mans fault.
But what if he heard how to be saved on the plain and decided he wanted to be saved.
That is Gods judgment to make with that person.
How many people does that what if actually happen to?
I've never heard such.

Regardless it has nothing to do with us.
We have the Holy Bible right in our hands!!!!

The same lame argument can be made if God only requires belief to be saved.
What if a person is taught the gospel and the canno second he is about to believe in Jesus he has a massive stroke and dies.
Will he be saved.
That's Gods prerogative.
But it has nothing to do with you or me.

Also, did you know ignorance is a sin.
There is such a thing as staying willfully ignorant.
Telling Jesus on judgment day I didn't know, is not an excuse that will exempt you from judgment.

Everyone God has created must seek after Him.
God has given this requirement to everyone.
Isaiah 55:6-7,
- seek the Lord while He may be found call upon Him while He is near
let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous his thoughts

God has revealed Himself because He wants us to have a relationship with Him.
People who go their whole lives not knowing God have done so in rebellion.

Very few, have not been given the opportunity to know the truth.
For these few, God will deal with them as He is a just and merciful God.
Only He truly knows their hearts.

 

[Tothalordbeallglory]

1. Then why are you not obeying? I keep asking this of people and they just ignore me.
2. I do know you because I know me. What do you have that I don't have?
3. I know you better than you know you because I know me better than you know yourself.

All these questions I'm asking prove it and you're just ignoring it.

All this "obey" nonsense means nothing if you're not obeying God yourself. It is nothing but hypocritical nonsense designed to trap and trick others. Even worse is you're believing your own "fairy tale" theology.

So. Start with #1 and lets begin this "exposure" of the hypocrisy that lives at every level within this "theology" you have......

You don't have the ability to obey without failure and you think that all you have to do when you "fail" is ask God to forgive you and you start right back over in this vicious cycle your theology produces. This theology you have causes you to endlessly judge others for the same things you do yourself while insisting that these "others" are not saved.

It really is sad. Horribly sad at all many levels to see this kind of nonsense ignored.

Certainly do as you please but don't be intellectually dishonest in such a manner.

So again. Why don't you obey when you're demanding obedience from others?

Paul was brutal in his take down of those who believe they're doing more for God than their neighbor.

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

The purpose of laws that have no origin in the hearts of men is to foster a self awareness in mankind that they may see themselves guilty.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

There is no guilt before such eyes.

There is no such thing as a meaningful faith without an intellectual ascent of the mind to the point of TRUSTING... God.

Obey..... Obey..... Obey.

Well. Why you not obeying? God has concluded all under sin that he might have mercy upon us all. We are no different in this.

as you well know many no like the obey word .
Many love rather another kind of obediance .
Obediance unto sin . That cometh of the flesh and not GOD .
GOD puts a whole new desire into the heart of his sheep .
Many try and seperate love from obediance .
but the TRUTH IS , WHO we love is WHO we obey .
Why are many not obeying God .
I once was just like that . But i know why that was . I was trapped in bondage
and in darkness and at best simply USED the NAME OF JESUS , as do many in these last hours .
But as i said , I was IN BONDAGE and IN DARKNESS . THANK GOD for the mercy of HIS GRACE
given us in CHRIST JESUS who actually CHANGES THE HEART and puts whole new desires within us
and you can bet THOSE DESIRES HE WORKETH IN HIS SHEEP
are WELL WELL WELL PLEASING TO GOD . and SIN just aint pleasing to GOD if ya KNOW what i mean .

 

[Red Baker]

@Titus

Paul says he played a part in their salvation by teaching them the gospel.

You skipped over my first few small post to get to this one, no doubt it is because you feel as though you can handle this one, but you are sadly mistaken, you did not even come close of doing so. I only wish, everyone in this thread would be gracious indeed to back off and let me have you one on one.

Titus, you only play with sound bites as those they support your corrupt gospel of works/merits perform by man, as though God needed anything form us to bring spiritual life to his elect. No one helped him to make coast of skins and clothed Adam and Eve. No one helped him to cause Noah to find grace in his eyes. No one helped him to move Abraham to leave his father;s land to go by faith where God directed him.

Paul says he played a part in their salvation by teaching them the gospel.
The gospel itself was the means by which they were saved.

Did you not read carefully what I said:

Paul no more begat the Corinthians once than he begat the Galatians twice ( Galatians 4:19)! Paul begat the Corinthians by being the one to convert (in a practical sense) them to the knowledge of the truth.

The words "save/saved/salvation" are not used in only one sense as you use them.. Most young unexperienced believers think of words save/saved/salvation, believe it is use only in being saved from sin and condemnation, which truly is not not used in that sense too often as much as in others senses. I think I went through this with you in the last thread you and I exchanged post.

You tell me in what sense are we to understand the word saved here:

1st Timothy 4:13-16~"Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery. Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all. Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

How are we to understand the sense of the word save here? Not in a legal sense, for Christ alone saved his people in this sense. Not in a vital sense, for the Spirit of God alone saves/regenerates God's elect in this sense. Only is this true in a practical sense. By Timothy giving himself to reading and to the doctrines of the scriptures can he save himself from being shame, deceived by false teachers, etc., etc. and likewise those he teaches. Lazy preachers have ignorant church members, ones that easily follows every wind of doctrine that comes along. Look at Romans 1:16 and what I posted to you above on this point.

How foolish to teach Paul had no part in their coming to Christ when He literally has God(the Holy Spirit) teaching them how to be saved. God is teaching them how to be saved through Paul who is Holy Spirit baptized, therefore God speaks through him.

The only foolish person here is the one that has no understanding on how to rightly divide the word of truth and that would be Mr. Titus. Regeneration is a birth by the Spirit of God alone, and THEN can a man of God help those young believers and saved them from false teacher like you and others, just as Paul was used to form Christ in the Galatians not once, but twice!

Galatians 4:19​

“My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,”

But also,
Red Baker is on here teaching. What for? He just taught Paul's teaching played no part in their salvation.
So why does Red Baker contradict his own doctrine and try to persuade me with his teaching?

Slow down and listen....Paul play a apart in their practical salvation, that is a given and a must, but not in their vital salvation, that's the work of teh Spirit of God alone. The same power that resurrected Jesus from the dead must be used to resurrect sinners who are dead in trespasses and sin! Listen to Paul:

Ephesians 1:19,20~And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Titus, let me ask you a question: Do you agree that the same power that raised Jesus from the dead must be used to raise his elect from being dead in trespasses and sins? Yes or not, and please give you reason from the bible for your answer.

You see calvinism creates logical illiterates.
Red Baker has been forced into illogical reasoning. Which isn't reason. Its rejecting logical conclusions.
People like Calvinist's who either dont understand or refuse to accept the basic rules of reasoning- such as cause and effect, instrumentality or plain word meaning- especially when interpreting Scripture.

Cannot ever come to understand simple to understand passages.
Their theology will not allow it.

Titus, you are out of your league debating me, I know from doing this over fifty plus years, you know very little of the scriptures, and you use such statements to try to get folks to see it your way. Again, as I said before, stay with the scriptures and do not default to using ad hominem. You would have a more impact simply using only scriptures with folks, at least with those who know their bibles well.

Later....RB

 

[Titus]

Titus, you only play with sound bites as those they support your corrupt gospel of works/merits perform

There is zero merit in the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You ain't talking to a works based salvationist.

You've already shown you do not rightly divide the word of God.
You already admitted the gospel is for the saved not the lost.
Your religion has it backwards.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Very few, have not been given the opportunity to know the truth.
For these few, God will deal with them as He is a just and merciful God.
Only He truly knows their hearts.

This really isn't true at many points throughout history. I know this isn't true because of these words....

Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

The idea that every person in this life gets an opportunity is just not real. I wish it were but it isn't.

It is why I say over and over again that WE are the reasons why people end up not knowing God.....

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

 

[praise_yeshua]

as you well know many no like the obey word .
Many love rather another kind of obediance .
Obediance unto sin . That cometh of the flesh and not GOD .

So why do you sin?

GOD puts a whole new desire into the heart of his sheep .
Many try and seperate love from obediance .
but the TRUTH IS , WHO we love is WHO we obey .

I'm not separating it at all. Just recognizing it for what it is. Most people preach "obey obey' and them start into "works" that add up to nothing meaningful.

Is love better than obedience? The answer is clear.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

There is faith without love. There is obedience without love. There are works all done for the wrong reasons that add up to nothing...

Why are many not obeying God .
I once was just like that . But i know why that was . I was trapped in bondage
and in darkness and at best simply USED the NAME OF JESUS , as do many in these last hours .
But as i said , I was IN BONDAGE and IN DARKNESS . THANK GOD for the mercy of HIS GRACE
given us in CHRIST JESUS who actually CHANGES THE HEART and puts whole new desires within us
and you can bet THOSE DESIRES HE WORKETH IN HIS SHEEP
are WELL WELL WELL PLEASING TO GOD . and SIN just aint pleasing to GOD if ya KNOW what i mean .

I know what you mean. However, there is an unreasonable expectation with this theology everyone is presenting here that demands absolute obedience without exception.

You can't do this. It is a false message that never has a working model to prove the claim.

Can you define the "law of faith"? It certainly isn't the law of Moses.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

[Titus]

Titus, you only play with sound bites as those they support your corrupt gospel of works/merits perform by man, as though God needed anything form us to bring spiritual life to his elect. No one helped him to make coast of skins and clothed Adam and Eve. No one helped him to cause Noah to find grace in his eyes. No one helped him to move Abraham to leave his father;s land to go by faith where God directed him.

God does not need anything from us.
Its Gods choice to decide how He wants to save us.
Definitely not John Calvin nor you nor I.

If God says you must jump up and down twenty times to be saved.
And that's what I taught.
Calvinist's would claim I'm teaching God needs us to do something to save us.
Wrong.
God does not need us to jump 20×.
God tells us what to do because that's His right.
If you think He doesn't have the right to tell us how He chooses to save us, then take it up with God, not me.
I'm just repeating what the Lord instructed us to do.

Your thinking has God needing Naaman to dip seven times in the river Jordan to be cleansed of his leprosy.
God did not need Naaman to do anything!!!

2Kings 5:10-11 ; 14
- and Elisha sent a messenger unto him saying, Go and wash in the Jordan seven times and thy flesh shall come again to thee and thou shalt be clean
- but Naaman was angry and went away and said, behold I thought he will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God and strike his hand over the place and recover the leper
verse 14,
- then went he down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan according to the saying of the man of God and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a child and he was clean

Conclusion: if God needs man to do something to save us then God could not cleanse Naaman unless he dipped seven times in the river Jordan.
Your accusations against me are ridiculous.
God doesnt need us to do anything but has the authority to decide how He will save us, just as God chose how to cleanse Naaman.

 

[praise_yeshua]

God does not need anything from us.
Its Gods choice to decide how He wants to save us.
Definitely not John Calvin nor you nor I.

If God says you must jump up and down twenty times to be saved.
And that's what I taught.
Calvinist's would claim I'm teaching God needs us to do something to save us.
Wrong.
God does not need us to jump 20×.
God tells us what to do because that's His right.
If you think He doesn't have the right to tell us how He chooses to save us, then take it up with God, not me.
I'm just repeating what the Lord instructed us to do.

Your thinking has God needing Naaman to dip seven times in the river Jordan to be cleansed of his leprosy.
God did not need Naaman to do anything!!!

2Kings 5:10-11 ; 14
- and Elisha sent a messenger unto him saying, Go and wash in the Jordan seven times and thy flesh shall come again to thee and thou shalt be clean
- but Naaman was angry and went away and said, behold I thought he will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God and strike his hand over the place and recover the leper
verse 14,
- then went he down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan according to the saying of the man of God and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a child and he was clean

Conclusion: if God needs man to do something to save us then God could not cleanse Naaman unless he dipped seven times in the river Jordan.
Your accusations against me are ridiculous.
God doesnt need us to do anything but has the authority to decide how He will save us, just as God chose how to cleanse Naaman.

So.... lets go with this.....

Why did Naaman need to do this? It is a simple answer. One you should know.

Though we all have the simple requirements of salvation in Jesus Christ, there are different points in our lives where the process becomes more meaningful to us than others.

For me, it was facing my own inabilities. I don't think you've done that yourself. I'm not saying that you have that requirement. I don't know you enough to say that. God does.

Though salvation is common it is also unique to the circumstances of our lives. Such is the very reason that Paul said very clearly....

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.