James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Titus]

Eternal Life is both a Gift and a Reward​

1 Timothy 6:12, 19,
- fight the good fight of faith, take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and you made that good confession in the presence of many witnesses

Here eternal life is a gift. Notice the gift is conditional. One must fight and one must make public confession with the mouth in the presence of others.
That is not belief only to obtain eternal life.
Eternal life is by Grace not earned but still one must fight. The fighting is not merit its faith moving one to obey God.

Saving faith in Christ results in producing good works (Ephesians 2:10) so it's not "alone" in the latter sense. Please tell me you are beginning to understand this.

Dan is teaching once again he was supposedly saved by faith that did no works of obedience.
He also teaches when saved by this belief with no obedient works one goes to heaven with no requirement by God to do good works.
Paul teaches one must make public confession with the mouth. His confession of faith in Christ to obtain the gift of eternal life.
There's two conditions already to be saved:
Romans 10:9-10,
- that if(conditional grace) thou shalt confess with thy  mouth the Lord Jesus and(two things joined together) shalt believe in thy heart that God raised Him from the dead thou shalt be saved
- for with the heart man believeth  unto righteousness and(two things as conditions) with the  mouth confession is made unto salvation
The Greek word unto means movement towards in the future a goal or destination.
Confession with the mouth moves one towards the goal of salvation.
Believeth with the heart moves one towards the goal of righteousness.
Paul did not teach the moment one believes they are saved.
Belief moves you towards salvation.
Paul did not teach belief only to be saved.
Paul taught belief and public confession with the mouth leads to salvation.
Dan will claim they are the same thing.
This is his church's perversion to get around what Paul really teaches.

Belief in Jesus and public confession with the mouth to be saved by Gods free gift.
True saving faith is never alone.
Here we have learned true saving faith confesses to be saved not because his belief alone already saved him.
The work of confession is a work of trusting faith to obtain eternal life.

Salvation by grace through faith + works is a bold faced lie. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) God's grace is conditional on faith, not works.

Faith without works is dead, James 2:24.

I

Titus ignores that suffering for Christ is what Paul must do as a chosen vessel of God to bear His name before Gentiles, kings, and the children. (Acts 9:15)

Dan is admitting here Paul must do good works after he is saved.
What if Paul goes against Gods will and does not do what Jesus commands him he must do.
Dan just completely contradicted the gospel he preaches.
Now he claims Paul  must obey Gods commandments.

This proves commandment keeping after one is saved is BINDING, ESSENTIAL, REQUIRED, NESSARY, NON- NEGOTIABLE, NOT OPTIONAL.​

Dan continues to argue without realizing he's already admitted Paul had to be water baptized as that was one of the must do's Jesus commanded him to do.
Dan will now after I post this contradict himself again and claim Paul does not need to be water baptized to be saved.
Even though he already admitted Paul must be baptized as Jesus bound baptism and preaching the gospel on Paul!!!

Just wait, I'll post again His complete 180 reversal on what he already admitted that Jesus bound baptism and preaching the gospel on Paul.
Dan will now claim even though Jesus commanded Paul to be baptized and preach if he chose not to work Gods commandments he still would be saved.

Ananias was commanded by Jesus to tell Paul what he must do.
Acts 9:6; 15,
- and Saul/Paul trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to  do
- and Jesus answered and said, Arise and go into the city and it shall be told thee what thou
must do

- but the Lord said unto Ananias Go thy way for he(Paul) is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My Name(preach the gospel) before the gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel

Jesus used the Greek word must.
It means:
- Direct command
- it is nessary
- one must
- it is  binding
- it is a necessity by the decree of God
- it is Gods  will

This doing is Paul's obedience.
Therefore Paul had no choice but to obey Jesus by doing working His will, commandments.

Jesus bound obedience as a requirement for Paul.
Listen to what Jesus commanded Ananias to tell Paul what he must do.

Acts 22:16,
- and now why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord.

Jesus gave Paul a direct command to be water baptized to wash away His sins.
Failure for Paul not to do what God ordered him to do would be disobedience to Gods  will

Listen to Dan's religion try to explain all this away when he responds to this post.

Matthew 7:21,
- not every one that saith unto Me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven

Dan already admitted Paul must obey Jesus by preaching the gospel.
Dan will contradict himself now and claim Paul did not have to obey Jesus commandments like baptism and preaching the gospel to be saved or to stay saved.

As I've already proven with Dan's faith alone and no obedient works to be saved gospel.
It is a gospel of salvation by belief alone and disobedience to Gods will.

Dan will teach Paul did not have to work by preaching and baptism to obtain eternal life.

 

[mailmandan]

There are two different Greek words used in John 3:36.

So what? Again, the King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son."

The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is "apeitheo" and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

Since your gospel cannot have any obdience to Gods commandments to be saved.

Salvation by obedience/works to God's commandments (1 John 2:3) after one has been saved through believing in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 15,16,18,36) is not what John is talking about here.

You only allow one narrow definition to the word disobey in John 3:36 to mean, unbelief in God.

Once again, in John 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son. That is in perfect harmony with (John 3:15,16,18; 6:29,40,47; 11:25-26 etc..).

You do this in a vain attempt to teach the only condition to be saved is to belief and no action in doing Gods commandments.

The action involved in keeping God's commandments follows having been saved through belief/faith and is the demonstrative evidence that we have come to know Him. (1 John 2:3) You basically redefine belief/faith to include doing all of God's commandments because you teach salvation by works/works righteousness.

Which in and of itself is contradictory because belief is a commandment that must be obeyed, 1John 3:23-24.

Belief is a commandment that must be obeyed in order to be saved (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 16:31; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..) which is not to be confused with commandments that we obey after we have been saved through believing in Jesus for salvation.

There is a difference between doing God's will in order to become saved (John 6:40) and doing God's will AFTER we have been saved. (1 Thessalonians 5:14-18) You can't seem to make that distinction and you turn everything into a prerequisite for salvation.

- he that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life and he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth on him

Two diferent Greek words used in this verse.
Same chapter John writes this,
John 3:5 = John 3:36,

1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but in corruptible, through the word of God which lives and forever. Also see John 15:3 and Ephesians 5:26. Also read John 4:10,14 and John 7:37-39. Becoming born again has nothing to do with salvation by works.

- Jesus answered Verily, verily, I say unto thee except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God

Water baptism is not the only water mentioned in scripture. Now go back and read John 4:10,14; 7:37-39; 15:3 and Ephesians 5:26. What water is that?

Same chapter John quotes Jesus teaching one must do more than belief alone to be saved.
Jesus uses Moses as an example that they were bitten by serpents and had to look on the pole to be saved. That's not belief only, that's belief + obdience to Gods commandments to be saved.
John 3:34,
- and as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so must the Son of man be lifted up

Just as the Israelites looked up at the bronze serpent in faith and were healed from their snake bites, believers, look up at Jesus on the cross in faith and are healed from their sins. This has nothing to do with salvation by works. Sorry to disappoint you.

If Moses and the Israelites had not  obeyed God by looking on the serpent on the pole.
They would have died. Jesus teaches repeatedly one must obey God to live.

One must have faith to live. Obey by believing. Again, the Israelites were healed from their snake bites when they looked at the bronze serpent in faith, just as believers, look up at Jesus on the cross in faith and are healed from their sins. There is nothing there about works righteousness.

The Greek word obey in John 3:36 means, refuse to obey, reject authority.
So this means more than unbelief as you demand that is all it can mean.
The Greek actually teaches in John 3:36 that believing in Jesus includes obedience in submitting to His commandments.

That is your eisegesis which culminates in works righteousness. You clearly teach salvation by faith AND works and so do Roman Catholics. Again, the Greek word in John 3:36 is "apeitheo" and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

The verse here is teaching faith is not passive but is obedient trust.

Actually, John 3:36 is teaching the one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to obey the Son by choosing to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him. (HCSB) Let me know when the truth finally starts sinking in.

True Biblical saving faith is obedient faith.

True, Biblical faith results in obedience/works yet obedience/works, which follow saving faith in Christ are not the very essence of faith nor the means by which we obtain salvation.

It's sad how hard you fight to get obdience to God out of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The gospel is not salvation by works, but salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) It's sad how hard you fight to "add" works to the gospel, therefore demornstrating confidence in your own righteousness and rendering Christ an IN-sufficient Savior.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works, is not hard to understand. It''s just hard for you to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow you to place your faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Your hands are full of your works and you will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith. It's truly sad.

 

[Red Baker]

@mailmandan

The gospel is not salvation by works, but salvation by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Brother, I must respectfully disagree with you and @Eternally-Grateful concerning the place of our faith concerning regeneration. I just got in, but will explain my position carefully to both of you in the morning early, the Lord willing. You both believe that works play not part, so I have not made a big deal out of this with either of you, since the opportunity did not present itself, and I have no desire to interrupt any man who is defending grace over works, but I do see a problem and an error in your's and Eternally-Grateful position and what the scriptures actually teach~at least us three are not totally on the same page, will explain later. The Lord be with both of you in defending the word of God according to the light God has given to every man. In the meantime please consider and give your (both) feed back, concerning Ephesians 2:8.

In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.

When a man hears and believes, it is not the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.

I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.

 

[Titus]

not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

This is what you want it to mean. You try very hard to claim John is teaching the only condition is belief therefore unbelief is the only meaning of obey not.
According to Jesus Himself he required Paul to preach and to be baptized. That is Gods will.
Paul's obedience was to do these things that God bound on Paul.
Failure for Paul to do so would be going against Gods will.
So in
John 3:36, to obey not includes baptism and sharing the gospel, for Paul.
Acts 9:6,
- and he(Saul/Paul) trembling and astonished said Lord what wilt thou have me to do
- and the Lord said unto him, Arise and go into the city and it shall be told thee what thou must do
Jesus ordered Paul to be baptized and preach the gospel.
For Paul to obey not was much more than only unbelief as you desperately want to misinterpret
John 3:36.

It's sad you don't accept Jesus own will, rather hold to reformation doctrine.
Matthew 7:21,
- not everyone that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the  will of My Father which is in heaven

Salvation by obedience/works to God's commandments (1 John 2:3) after one has been saved through believing in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 15,16,18,36) is not what John is talking about here

Conveniently left out that belief itself is a commandment that  must be obeyed, 1John 3:23-24.
John in chapter 3 quoted Jesus telling Nicodemus that he must be born of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom.
John did not teach no obedience to Gods commandments = salvation as you teach.
Neither did Jesus teach your gospel.
Matthew 28:18-20.

Once again, in John 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

You still do not understand belief that saves.
Jesus taught trusting belief was never alone but always obeys God.
So unbelief to God is disobedience.

All are commanded to obey the gospel.
Commandments require more than just mental assent, belief alone.
They require obedience.
Acts 6:7,
- and the word of God increased and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly and a great company of priests were obedient to the gospel
They obeyed the commandments in Jesus' gospel just like Paul in his baptism.
If one does not obey Gods commandments it is unbelief.

All of Jesus' gospel is His word, John 17:17.
If one denies Jesus word like if Paul refused to believe he must be baptized.
That is disobedience to Jesus' commands.
That is how you obey not the gospel.
Disobedience is more than just unbelief.

Acts 10:48,
- and Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord

Paul was commanded by Jesus.
Cornelius and his household were commanded by Peter.
But Dan says all John 3:36 means is unbelief.
You can include unbelief in not believing one  must be baptized as God commands.

Notice faith only never argue the commandment of belief can be disobeyed, 1John 3:23-24.
That shows inconsistently in their arguments of no commandments required to be saved. No obedience to gospel commandments to be saved.
Cherry picking only what they want to believe from Jesus' word while rejecting being obedient to Gods will.

Just as the Israelites looked up at the bronze serpent in faith and were healed from their snake bites, believers, look up at Jesus on the cross in faith and are healed from their sins. This has nothing to do with salvation by works. Sorry to disappoint you

Yes, the serpent on the pole is a type.
Lots of typology in Scripture.

You missed that looking at the serpent on the pole is NOT faith alone salvation.
Its action of their faith.
They believed what God told them to do would save them so they obeyed by doing, looking at the bronze serpent.

That is not faith alone salvation Dan. That faith that obeye Gods commandments to be saved.

One must have faith to live. Obey by believing. Again, the Israelites were healed from their snake bites when they looked at the bronze serpent in faith

Just as true believers today repent confess, and are baptized in faith that Jesus will save them.
Just as the Israelites looked at the serpent in faith believing that doing what God says would save them.

Dan you accuse me of merit salvation.
But here you messed up and admitted that the Israelites did not do a work of merit by looking at the serpent on the pole.
They did a work of faith just like we do today.

Also their obedience was more than just believing and you know it!!! They believed and did the work of looking at the serpent.
The was the work God gave them to do.

Absent from Dan's post is Paul's conversion.
What about Paul Dan?
What about what he was told he must do after he already believed in Jesus?
Doesn't fit with your gospel.
Paul was told things he must do.
Not Dan's gospel of just believe only.

 

[Titus]

Belief is a commandment that must be obeyed in order to be saved (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 16:31; 1 Corinthians 1:21 etc..)

Dan has been arguing with me this entire time no obedient works to be saved.
Now he admits we must obey which is we must work the commandment of belief in Christ.

He just contradicted his entire theology of salvation!!!
The only way someone can make such obvious mistakes in their reasoning and not see it themselves requires spiritual blindness.
2 Thessalonians 2:10-13

Love you Dan.

 

[Titus]

This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.

No,
Ephesians 2:8-9.
- for by grace are ye  saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God...


The gift of God is their salvation, Romans 6:23.
Therefore the - not of yourselves is their salvation.
Calvinist's claim the " not of yourselves " is their faith.
That is not what the Greek is teaching.
That is not what Paul is teaching.

Paul said that salvation is not of themselves meaning they did not merit it.
It is a gift from God, Gods grace.
God graced them with this gift of salvation therefore it is not by their works.
This is why their salvation, no one can boast of saving themselves by their works.

Faith was worked by them.
Romans 10:17. When they heard the gospel and believed then baptized, Acts 19:1-7.