Are Arminians "works" salvationists?!

Whether someone actually claim this or not, their beliefs can "add up" to this conclusion.

In my view, there are Arminians that believe repentance is "work". They treat faith as repentance. They believe a "change of mind" involves outward appearance of "good works" which equals repentance.

Repentance is a granted by God and comes through meeting the proper threshold of "belief" in the work of God for humanity. Repentance is a very Holy thing. A point wherein the very mind of God is joined with us in the new birth. In my personal opinion, it corresponds to Divine brokenness.
In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed, and He will make our paths straight. So choosing the latter is what it means to have faith, that is why faith without works is dead, and going from the former to the latter is what it means to repent, so repentance is inherently acting in faith.

In response to your comments in another thread. There is no reconciling the book of James with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. James wasn't written by an apostle. Though I believe Truth is found in the book, I do not consider it inspired. Though I wouldn't remove it from my canonical list. I believe it is good way to deal with what it teaches.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting and returning to obedience to God's law is a central part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that is precisely what James was encouraging them to do in James 2:1-11.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also in obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his obedience as a wage (Romans 4:1-5). Paul also said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar the same faith by which we are justified also upholds God's law (Romans 3:31). In James 2:21-24, he quoted Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was alive along with his works, and his faith complete his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were the way to have faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

It expresses a distinctly Jewish misunderstanding of the work of Christ. It tries to blend Grace with works. This is very clear from the words expressed in....Many of our brothers in Christ make mistakes in this same belief. James clearly teaches this..... You can not take the words believe any differently than how they are distinctly expressed.
Jesus is Jewish, so the correct understanding of his work is a Jewish understanding.

While Grace is a gift and gifts are incompatible with works done to earn a wage (Romans 11:6), works can be done for many other reasons that are compatible with grace, which is why there are many verses that connect grace and works. For example, in Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting God's law before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus, which is again salvation by grace through faith. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so God was gracious to him by teaching him how to walk in His way in obedience to His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we do not need to first done those works in order to produce our salvation and we do not produce those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

The answer to James question is YES. Faith does save without works. James appeals to a time in Abraham's life that is around 25 years after Abraham was circumcised and received the "seal" of God.

It is a rather amateurist appeal that rejects Salvation by Faith. Though I believe those that get saved will do good works, it is vitally important how we establish that fact from the Scriptures. "James" gets it very wrong.
Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4). so while we do not earn our salvation as a wage by obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. So living in obedience to God's law can't be removed from the concept of being saved from not living in obedience to it, which is why there can't be an affirmative answer to the question in James 2:14.

No. Hebrew 11 lists expressions of faith that do not justify. You're adding the aspect of justification to the declarations. Thr writer of Hebrews does not make the claims made by James. You are conflating.

You appealed to those who had done many wonderful works as referenced in Matthew yet Jesus said He never knew them. You connect works to justification in James and Hebrew and then "unhitch" to those described by Jesus.

Abraham did many things throughout his life. Including lying. Including not trusting God for Sarah. Like Paul wrote, Abraham had no place to Glory before God.

James is very clear. Paul is very clear. There is no reconciliating what they wrote. We should stop trying to twist their words to compliment one another.
If you agree that we are justified by faith, then what grounds do you have for claiming that the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11 are not justifying, especially when Hebrews 11:17 lists the work of offering Isaac as being an example of faith and James 2:21-24 says that he was justified when he did that work?

In Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refuse to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken His law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in practicing those and other aspects of God's nature in obedience to His law is the way to know Him, and the way to know Jesus because he is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). Likewise, in 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey His commands are liars, in in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of God's law have neither seen nor known him, so again knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life.

However, people can go through the motions of obeying God's law while missing its goal of teaching us to practice aspects of His nature, and thus be counted as workers of lawlessness in accordance with Matthew 7:21-23. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faithfulness. In Philippians 3:8, Paul had been in the same situation, where he had been obeying God's law while not being focused on knowing Jesus, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he counted as rubbish.
 
In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed, and He will make our paths straight. So choosing the latter is what it means to have faith, that is why faith without works is dead, and going from the former to the latter is what it means to repent, so repentance is inherently acting in faith.

I appreciate you elborating.

Can you specific describe what you're "choosing". Not the process but what exactly are you choosing? We have to make the right choice. Not just any choice but the right choice. You're describe a very broad "road" here.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting and returning to obedience to God's law is a central part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that is precisely what James was encouraging them to do in James 2:1-11.

It is very possible that James is actually referencing something similar to this. However, he gets this wrong as well. It is very possible that James is simply a Jew that never matured in faith. He is wrong because Jesus was addressing His own. He came unto His own...... The message of Jesus Christ is somewhat different now than it was then. It is more detailed message. "His own" rejected Him and sought to kill Him. The work of God was completed before their very eyes. The book of James is very rudimentary. Too rudimentary. It is not written by a mature believer in Jesus Christ.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also in obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification by his obedience as a wage (Romans 4:1-5). Paul also said that only doers of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar the same faith by which we are justified also upholds God's law (Romans 3:31). In James 2:21-24, he quoted Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was alive along with his works, and his faith complete his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were the way to have faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

It took 25 years for Abraham to "justify" his faith? Really? No. Not really....

Abraham's faith was alive long before offering Isaac. In fact, Paul said that Abraham didn't "stagger" at the promises of God for Isaac himself.

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

So please do tell...... What work did Abraham do when he believed God for Isaac? Please give great detail.... be specific.

Jesus is Jewish, so the correct understanding of his work is a Jewish understanding.

You're confirming what I've already stated existed among Arminians.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Nope. Salvation was long before a Jew ever existed. Jesus was a son of Adam. Jesus was a descendent of Adam. He is referenced as the Second Adam. Not the second Abraham. You and James have similar issues here. You are not recognize the rightful place of Adam's descendents in salvation.

I'm going to stop right here and ask that you deal specifically with what I've said above. I don't want to get lost in a endless circular argument you are making.
 
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And just so you know there are a few members that complain about my long posts. So I know what it feels like, I can empathize with you. :)
Brother-text don't take up space on my computer-and not here-there can be a relaxation on the 10k characters-if people don't want to read and be informed-that is on them, not me.
I think I can safely say you are a man of God and so am I-hence our pathos for Christ Jesus.
Shalom Achi
שלום לך ולמשפחה
J.
 
I appreciate you elborating.

Can you specific describe what you're "choosing". Not the process but what exactly are you choosing? We have to make the right choice. Not just any choice but the right choice. You're describe a very broad "road" here.
There are a number of ways that Eve's desire warped her perception, such as in Genesis 3:6, and our desire clouds our judgement so that by ourselves we can no longer be sure if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it. As such, we need to recognize and undo the damage that was done by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and instead rely only on what God has instructed, which is the way to eat from the Tree of Life (Proverbs 3:16-18). For example, someone might desire to have homosexual sex and they might not see anything wrong with it, so they can choose to lean on their own understanding, or they can trust with all of their heart that God was correctly dividing between right and wrong when He instructed against it.


It is very possible that James is actually referencing something similar to this. However, he gets this wrong as well. It is very possible that James is simply a Jew that never matured in faith. He is wrong because Jesus was addressing His own. He came unto His own...... The message of Jesus Christ is somewhat different now than it was then. It is more detailed message. "His own" rejected Him and sought to kill Him. The work of God was completed before their very eyes. The book of James is very rudimentary. Too rudimentary. It is not written by a mature believer in Jesus Christ.
I don't see a reason to think that James is very rudimentary or that he wasn't a mature believer in Jesus Christ, but rather I see what he said as being in accordance with what Paul said.

It took 25 years for Abraham to "justify" his faith? Really? No. Not really....

Abraham's faith was alive long before offering Isaac. In fact, Paul said that Abraham didn't "stagger" at the promises of God for Isaac himself.

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

So please do tell...... What work did Abraham do when he believed God for Isaac? Please give great detail.... be specific.
I didn't say that Abraham took 25 years to justify his faith, but that there were multiple instances where he was justified.

The Gospel that Jesus taught in Matthew 4:15-23 that called for repentance from our disobedience to God's law was in accordance with him been sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26), which was also the Gospel that was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5).

In Genesis 18:19, God knew Abraham that he would teach his children and those of his household to walk in His way by doing righteousness and Jesus that the Lord may bring to him all that He has promised. In Genesis 25:4-5, God will multiply Abraham's children as the stars in the heaven, to his children He will give all of these lands, and though His children all of the nations of the earth will be blessed because he heard God's voice and guarded His charge, His commandments, His statutes, and His laws. In Deuteronomy 30:16, if the children of Abraham love the Lord their God with all of their heart by walking in His way in obedience to His commandments, statutes, and laws, then the will live and multiply and God will bless them in the land that they go to possess. So the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, he taught his children and his household to do that in according with spreading the Gospel, and because his children did that too.

In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied in accordance with the promise is not through having many physical descendants, but through turning people from their wickedness and teaching them to do the same works as Abraham in obedience to God's law in accordance with spreading the Gospel. Likewise, God's law is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed (Psalms 119:1-3), so the way to inherit the promise of being a blessing to the nations is by turning them from their wickedness and teaching them to obey God's law in accordance with spreading the Gospel, and the children of Abraham who believe the Gospel are the citizens of the Kingdom of God. So spearing the Gospel is the work that Abraham did starting in Genesis 12 and throughout the rest of his life, which is the way to believe the promise that is reckoned through Isaac.

You're confirming what I've already stated existed among Arminians.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Nope. Salvation was long before a Jew ever existed. Jesus was a son of Adam. Jesus was a descendent of Adam. He is referenced as the Second Adam. Not the second Abraham. You and James have similar issues here. You are not recognize the rightful place of Adam's descendents in salvation.

I'm going to stop right here and ask that you deal specifically with what I've said above. I don't want to get lost in a endless circular argument you are making.
In Galatians 3:16-19, a new covenant does not nullify the promise of a previous covenant that has already been ratified, though if the New Covenant did away with our need to repent and obey God's law through faith, then it would have nullified the promise. God's nature is eternal, therefore His instructions for how to testify about His nature are also eternal, so they existed long before they were instructed to Abraham or as part of the Mosaic Covenant, and our salvation has always been from living in a way that is contrary to God's nature by living in a way that testifies about His nature. Jesus is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so he has always been central to salvation.

Furthermore, in Galatians 3:26-29, it connects being children of God (1), through faith (2), and in Christ (3) with be being children of Abraham, heirs to the promise, and every aspect of that is directly connected with living in obedience to God's law. In 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness sin obedience to God's law are not children of God (1). In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law (2). In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (3).
 
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Brother-text don't take up space on my computer-and not here-there can be a relaxation on the 10k characters-if people don't want to read and be informed-that is on them, not me.
I think I can safely say you are a man of God and so am I-hence our pathos for Christ Jesus.
Shalom Achi
שלום לך ולמשפחה
J.

Indexing of large posts for "searchability" can cause issues in a forum.
 
There are a number of ways that Eve's desire warped her perception, such as in Genesis 3:6, and our desire clouds our judgement so that by ourselves we can no longer be sure if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it. As such, we need to recognize and undo the damage that was done by eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and instead rely only on what God has instructed, which is the way to eat from the Tree of Life (Proverbs 3:16-18). For example, someone might desire to have homosexual sex and they might not see anything wrong with it, so they can choose to lean on their own understanding, or they can trust with all of their heart that God was correctly dividing between right and wrong when He instructed against it.

I don't see a choice here. You actually believe justification in salvation comes from obstaining from homesexual sex? I don't see how that can actually be possible. If this were true, then Christ died in vain.

I don't see a reason to think that James is very rudimentary or that he wasn't a mature believer in Jesus Christ, but rather I see what he said as being in accordance with what Paul said.

I know you do. Which is a problem.

I didn't say that Abraham took 25 years to justify his faith, but that there were multiple instances where he was justified.

James referenced an event around 25 years or more after Abraham believed God and was justified. James could have listed other events. He did not. He willing choose a certain event when there were others to choose from. You're establishing multiple "justification" events in the life of Abraham . Which is problematic to the say the least. Abraham was justified before God when He believed God. Immediately justified. It was this single justification event that established him justified in the eyes of God.

I'm going wait till you respond to this to deal with the rest.
 
Not really-speaking from experience-just hit Crl + F and there you go.
Shalom

The forum software "indexes" searches in database tables. I don't know exactly the method this forum software uses but it is complex and takes up space and can result in much higher cpu load. It is one of the reason that some forums restrict the character length of posts. Most every software does this. It is why Twitter recently limited character length responses. They don't want to pay the AWS service cost to spin up more resource to support their index.
 
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