The Bible says the will of God can not be thwarted. That should answer your question.
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
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civic
Well-known member
I did the same thing with pharaoh as a determinist. Doctrine ( Calvinists ) was the lens I saw everything through.
civic
Well-known member
So God desired sin, evil, the fall , the angels rebellion etc …..
Scripture opposes your view
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin
James 1:13-14- Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man. But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed.
Matthew 4:7- Jesus replied, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'
hope this helps !!!
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
No it doesn't. By all means prove it. I challenged you on the details and you folded.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Got it! Thanks
Job 42:2
God can and does use sin to carry out His purposes.
Johann
Well-known member
The account of Pharaoh's response to Moses' demand to let the Israelites go in the book of Exodus presents a complex interplay between Pharaoh's own stubbornness and God's involvement in hardening his heart. Let's delve deeper into the nuances of this narrative:
Pharaoh's Initial Response (Exodus 5:2)
Pharaoh's initial defiance towards God, as seen in Exodus 5:2, sets the stage for the conflict between his authority and God's sovereignty. His question, "Who is the LORD," reflects his ignorance and arrogance towards the God of Israel.
Pharaoh's Hardening of His Own Heart (Exodus 8:15, 32; 9:34)
In Exodus 8:15, 32; and 9:34, the text explicitly states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.
These passages highlight Pharaoh's active resistance and refusal to heed God's commands, showcasing his own stubbornness and pride.
God's Foreknowledge and Pharaoh's Resistance (Exodus 3:19; 7:14; 13:15)
God's foreknowledge of Pharaoh's response is evident in Exodus 3:19, where God informs Moses that Pharaoh will not let the Israelites go without a mighty display of power. This sets the stage for the unfolding conflict between God's sovereignty and Pharaoh's resistance.
Exodus 7:14 and 13:15 further emphasize Pharaoh's unyielding heart and stubborn refusal to release the Israelites. These passages underscore Pharaoh's personal responsibility for his hardened stance against God.
Interpretation of Pharaoh's Hardness
While some passages suggest God's involvement in hardening Pharaoh's heart, it is essential to consider that Pharaoh also actively hardened his own heart through his pride, defiance, and refusal to submit to God.
The narrative portrays a complex interplay between divine sovereignty and human responsibility, highlighting both God's foreknowledge of Pharaoh's actions and Pharaoh's own choices leading to his hardened heart.
Conclusion
The account of Pharaoh in Exodus presents a nuanced portrayal of human agency and divine intervention. While God foreknew Pharaoh's response and allowed for his hardening, Pharaoh also played an active role in resisting God's commands through his stubbornness and pride. The narrative serves as a reminder of the intricate relationship between human free will, divine sovereignty, and the consequences of one's choices in relation to God's purposes.
J.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I can read. It says clearly...
Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Except when it involves someone you don't like.... Right?
Take your meds. Your losing it.
Job 42:2. "I know you can do all things and no purpose of yours can be thwarted." ESV
Johann
Well-known member
Yes, that's correct. In the biblical narrative of Exodus 7-9, Pharaoh's heart is hardened multiple times. Initially, it's described that Pharaoh hardens his own heart in response to Moses and Aaron's demands to let the Israelites go. However, as the story progresses, it's also mentioned that God hardens Pharaoh's heart, leading to his refusal to release the Israelites. This interplay between Pharaoh's own decisions and God's intervention raises questions about free will and divine sovereignty.
Certainly. In Exodus 7-9, there are several instances where Pharaoh hardens his own heart. Let's explore these instances along with their scriptural references and some insights into the Hebrew meanings.
Exodus 7:13 (NKJV):
"And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said."
Here, the Hebrew word for "hardened" is chazaq, which means "to strengthen" or "to make firm." Pharaoh's heart becoming hardened implies that he became stubborn and resistant to Moses and Aaron's demands.
Exodus 7:22 (NKJV):
“Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.”
Again, we see Pharaoh's heart becoming hard as a response to witnessing the miracles performed by Moses and Aaron, as well as his own magicians. The Hebrew term chazaq is used here as well.
Exodus 8:15 (NKJV):
“But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.”
In this verse, Pharaoh hardens his heart after the removal of the frogs, demonstrating his persistence in resisting the demand to release the Israelites. The term chazaq is used again.
These instances indicate Pharaoh's own stubbornness and resistance to the message and demands of Moses and Aaron. He repeatedly refuses to acknowledge the authority of God and release the Israelites, despite witnessing miraculous signs.
It's important to note that while Pharaoh hardens his own heart in these instances, there are also instances where it is stated that God hardened Pharaoh's heart (e.g., Exodus 9:12). This dual aspect raises theological questions about the interplay between human free will and divine sovereignty in the biblical narrative.
Read carefully
J.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Do you see the "ESV" you posted at the end of that verse....
The ESV was created by modern Calvinists.
It is really is difficult to have a educated conversation with someone such as yourself. You only go far enough in theology to accept the first reference that you believe proves your point.
This is a "trademark" of inexperienced Calvinists.
I know all the evidence for what you're claiming. Challenge me. I'll prove that I do. Why don't you post the first historical Calvinist that quotes Job 42:2 as evidence of the argument you're making. Go for it. I'll wait.
So let's have a intellectual discuss of why you're making these mistakes.
When your comrades are claiming "trolling" throughout the threads recently, you're the actually the one trolling. Trolls never actually know what they're talking about.
I'll give you a little "pieces" of the information you don't know. What Bible is considered the Bible of the Reformers?
I give you some advice. Stop searching just for what you believe confirms your bias. Actually study. Consume opposing information that disagrees with your bias.
You like Calvinism because it makes you feel better about yourself.
Job 42:2 "I know you can do anything, you make plans and NOTHING can stop them."
I know that you can do all things, no purpose of yours can be thwarted."
Job 42:2 "I know you can do anything an no one can stop you."
Rockson
Well-known member
I think most all have missed the simplicity of really what God was meaning when it says he hardened Pharaohs heart.
It's really a simple thing and we express it a different way today though.
We don't say we have or do harden someone's heart. We do however say this...........I'm going to make them mad....or I have done so. Think of it even on here. One might say what I'm going to say is tick them off.
So here's a question. Did we REALLY make them mad? We can say yes we did BUT no we didn't. One gets what I mean by that. If a person gets mad or offended.....it does not mean they didn't have a choice not to. They chose to do that of their own choice. So we can say no I didn't make them mad....but then again I did. It all depends on how your using the words or in how you receive them. So what was the horrible thing God did to harden Pharaoh's heart? He basically said four words...."Let my people go!" That was it that was what God did to make Pharaoh mad or harden his heart.
