No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[FreeInChrist]

You mean the Father? They are One with the Spirit.

Unless I have stepped into an alternate universe The Father is God.

John 6:44 states, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." This verse emphasizes that it is God who invites individuals to Jesus.

And if they are one with the Sprit then they are one with God the Holy Spirit.

 

[TomL]

How is that? I believe in definite atonement, you ever heard of Tulip?

Yep it is a common error

But if you are going to say the drawing is irresistible, you have universalism.

 

[TomL]

Yes , He draws them unto Himself. That's conversion. He persuades them, wins them to Himself. The word for draw has a metaphorical Spiritual meaning:

2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας ... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)https://biblehub.com/greek/1670.htm

Drawing is not irresistible.

Nehemiah 9:30 (YLT)

30 `And Thou drawest over them many years, and testifiest against them by Thy Spirit, by the hand of Thy prophets, and they have not given ear, and Thou dost give them into the hand of peoples of the lands,

It is especially important to note that the LXX uses the same Greek word in Nehemiah in the context of God working to bring Israel back to Him, and Israel resisting that work (drawing),

“And many times You rescued them according to Your compassion,

29 And admonished them in order to turn them back to Your law. Yet they acted arrogantly and did not listen to Your commandments but sinned against Your ordinances, By which if a man observes them he shall live. And they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck, and would not listen.
30 “However, You bore with them (literally, “drew” them, the same Greek word used in John 6 and 12) for many years, And admonished them by Your Spirit through Your prophets, Yet they would not give ear (which proves that this drawing was not irresistible). Therefore, you gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.
31 “Nevertheless, in Your great compassion You did not make an end of them or forsake them, For You are a gracious and compassionate God.

This really destroys the Calvinists' entire argument, as it is clear from this passage that the Greek word for “draw” does not always convey the idea of irresistible drawing or dragging

Additionaly Jeremiah 31:3

Jeremiah 31:3–4 (KJV 1900)

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:
Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. 4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:
Thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, And shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

 

[brightfame52]

Unless I have stepped into an alternate universe The Father is God.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One, and their Saving our purpose is One

 

[brightfame52]

Yep it is a common error

No it's not

 

[brightfame52]

Drawing is not irresistible.

Yes it is in Jn 6:44; 12:32 The drawing brings them to Christ in conversion.

 

[TomL]

Yes it is in Jn 6:44; 12:32 The drawing brings them to Christ in conversion.

Sorry, there is no mention of irresistibility there.

And you ignored these

Drawing is not irresistible.

Nehemiah 9:30 (YLT)

30 `And Thou drawest over them many years, and testifiest against them by Thy Spirit, by the hand of Thy prophets, and they have not given ear, and Thou dost give them into the hand of peoples of the lands,

It is especially important to note that the LXX uses the same Greek word in Nehemiah in the context of God working to bring Israel back to Him, and Israel resisting that work (drawing),

“And many times You rescued them according to Your compassion,

29 And admonished them in order to turn them back to Your law. Yet they acted arrogantly and did not listen to Your commandments but sinned against Your ordinances, By which if a man observes them he shall live. And they turned a stubborn shoulder and stiffened their neck, and would not listen.
30 “However, You bore with them (literally, “drew” them, the same Greek word used in John 6 and 12) for many years, And admonished them by Your Spirit through Your prophets, Yet they would not give ear (which proves that this drawing was not irresistible). Therefore, you gave them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.
31 “Nevertheless, in Your great compassion You did not make an end of them or forsake them, For You are a gracious and compassionate God.

This really destroys the Calvinists' entire argument, as it is clear from this passage that the Greek word for “draw” does not always convey the idea of irresistible drawing or dragging

Additionaly Jeremiah 31:3

Jeremiah 31:3–4 (KJV 1900)

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:
Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. 4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:
Thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, And shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

 

[TomL]

No it's not

Yep it is a common error

But if you are going to say the drawing is irresistible, you have universalism.

 

[civic]

Wait a minute... as usual you twist things to fit your own need.

Is it the Father drawing them to the Son or is it the Son drawing them?

You keep saying that only the elect are drawn... not all.

Why would the elect need to be drawn to be converted.

Either way, neither fits with the notion of predestination now does it?


What happened to God drawing them to Christ?

they don't need to be drawn since in his theology they were already saved before creation. no need for the gospel either.

 

[civic]

Yep it is a common error

But if you are going to say the drawing is irresistible, you have universalism.

correct but somehow in John 12:32 everyone/all men/mankind really means only the elect. the meaning of everyone in the passage takes on a different meaning all together. its similar to how unitarians twist Gods word to deny the Deity of Christ and give words different meanings.

 

[TomL]

correct but somehow in John 12:32 everyone/all men/mankind really means only the elect. the meaning of everyone in the passage takes on a different meaning all together. its similar to how unitarians twist Gods word to deny the Deity of Christ and give words different meanings.

Scripture must be twisted to hold to such beliefs.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, there is no mention of irresistibility there

The all Christ draws, He converts to Himself, and all of Salvation is by Grace.

 

[brightfame52]

Yep it is a common error

No it's not

 

[FreeInChrist]

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One, and their Saving our purpose is One

SO YOU DO AGREE THAT THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE GOD?

MODALISM......

OR DO YOU AGREE THAT THE FATHER, THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE ONE WITHIN THE GODHEAD?

 

[FreeInChrist]

You mean the Father? They are One with the Spirit.

MODALISM.

If this be the case then when the Son said to baptize in the 'name' of the Father, and the Son, and The Holy spirit
what was the purpose of naming all three when he easily could have said... stop baptizing in my name and baptize in God instead?

 

[FreeInChrist]

they don't need to be drawn since in his theology they were already saved before creation. no need for the gospel either.

Exactly....

There is zero reasin for them to be drawn.... @brightfame52 .

THE ONLY possible reason would be for the free will to have the opportunity to accept or reject.

NO REASON for the elect

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yes it is in Jn 6:44; 12:32 The drawing brings them to Christ in conversion.

But they already were... before time.

 

[brightfame52]

SO YOU DO AGREE THAT THE FATHER, THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT ARE GOD?

Yes for about 40 plus years now

 

[brightfame52]

But they already were... before time.

No one is converted before Time

 

[FreeInChrist]

No one is converted before Time

Awe @brightfame52 . you seem to delight in confusing me.

Then you are not predestined believing?

Predestined people are believed to have been chosen by God before the foundation of the world, as suggested in biblical passages like Ephesians 1:4-5. This concept is central to the doctrine of predestination in Christian theology, particularly in the teachings of Augustine and Calvinism.

Then who are these elect you have been talking about ?

Predestination refers to the belief that God has already determined the fate of individuals, particularly regarding salvation. Depending on the theological perspective, this can mean that those who are predestined will ultimately be saved, while others may not be, raising questions about free will and human responsibility in the process.

Predestination refers to the belief that God has chosen certain individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world, as indicated in Ephesians 1:4. This concept suggests that those who are part of the elect are predetermined by God to have faith in Christ and receive salvation.

In Christian theology, particularly within Calvinism, the term "elect" primarily refers to those individuals chosen by God for salvation, known as the "predestined." However, the concept of election can also apply to groups, such as the Israelites in the Old Testament, who were chosen as God's people for a specific purpose.

There is not need for a predestined person to be drawn for conversion. The choice was already made. It was in Gods plans before
the earth was created.