brightfame52
Active Member
Okay none of that world is condemned it's justified
Salvation is according to the will of God
- Thread starter brightfame52
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TibiasDad
Active Member
civic
Active Member
Amen.
The irony is some of the reformed people give faith lip service. The just shall life by faith. Without faith its impossible to please God, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the words of Christ ( the gospel ). Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved. And there are dozens upon dozens of other passages. Some might as well rip Hebrews 11 out of their bibles since they really don't believe it.
brightfame52
Active Member
No at the moment Christ became its propitiation, God was satisfied and their sins all forgiven. When did Christ become a propitiation for their sins before Gods law and Justice ?
TibiasDad
Active Member
There is, in Reform thought, no real purpose or power in faith, because the real point of reckoning lies with election, not belief. Belief becomes a mere aspect of necessity, like buttoning your shirt before you put a tie on.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
Propitiating allows for forgiveness to be given, it does not give it! Forgiveness follows repentance and confession of sin by the sinner. “Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins.” Which comes first, repentance or forgiveness?
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
Propitiation is another facet of salvation. Once God has been propitiated for ones sins, they are reconciled to God, Justified before God, forgiven by God, at peace with God, not condemned by God. If you deny this, frankly you deny Christ ! Isa 53:10-11
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
He Intercedes for the transgressors He bare their sins for, so all unbelievers He died for Christ intercedes for, so to say He is not their propitiation until they believe is disproved in this scripture, and they are already Justified.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Acts 2:37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Forgiveness and receiving the Holy Spirit are contingent on repentance and baptism. The language and syntax are irrefutable.
(Incidentally, receiving the Spirit is the point of being born again, so repentance is a prerequisite to being born again.)
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
okay doesnt change a thing said. Those folks sins had been propitiated for.
TibiasDad
Active Member
All sin has been propitiated for; whether we believe that or not is the question.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
No it hasn't, if that was true, none could die in their sins under the wrath of God.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Hilasmós means to appease the anger, the effect of which is that the justice of God is satisfied and God can now show mercy to whoever trusts in that act of appeasing, whoever believes that it was for their personal sins.
Hilasmós is the means to forgiveness, not forgiveness itself. God could not forgive without Christ satisfying the legal requirements of justice on behalf of mankind.
Every sin (outside of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) is forgivable because every sin is atoned for by Christ’s blood! That is the good news! That is why I preach! There is no gospel otherwise! All we have to do is believe in it.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
The propitiation is limited to the saved from their sins and wrath Rom 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
False, it is also forgiveness in the covenant Heb 8:12
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Now that word merciful here is the greek word hileós:
cheerful (as attractive), i.e. propitious
2. (adverbially, by Hebraism) God be gracious!
3. (in averting some calamity) far be it
So there is forgiveness in propitiation as it should be.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Thayer
ἱλάσκομαι; (see below); in classical Greek the middle of an act. ἱλάσκω (to render propitious, appease) never met with;
1. to render propitious to oneself, to appease, conciliate to oneself (from ἴλαος gracious, gentle); from Homer down; mostly with the accusative of a person, as Θεόν, Ἀθηνην, etc. (τόν Θεόν ἱλάσασθαι, Josephus, Antiquities 6, 6, 5); very rarely with the accusative of the thing, as τήνὀργήν, Plutarch, Cat. min. 61 (with which cf. ἐξιλάσκεσθαι θυμόν, Proverbs 16:14the Sept.). In Biblical Greek used passively, to become propitious, be placated or appeased; in 1 aorist imperative ἱλάσθητι, be propitious, be gracious, be merciful (in secular authors ἱληθι and Doric, ἵλαθι, which the gramm. regard as the present of an unused verb ἵλημι, to be propitious; cf. Alexander Buttmann (1873) Ausf. Sp. ii., p. 206; Kühner, § 343, i., p. 839; Passow, (or Liddell and Scott, or Veitch) under the word ἵλημι), with the dative of the thing or the person: Luke 18:13 (ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις, Psalm 78:9 (); Psalm 87:38 (); τῇ ἁμαρτία, Psalm 24:11 (); ἱλάσθη ὁ κύριος περί τῆςκακίας, Exodus 32:14 Alex.; ἱλασθήσεταικυρίου τῷ δούλῳ σου, 2 Kings 5:18).
2. by an Alexandrian usage, to expiate, make propitiation for (as ἐξιλάσκεσθαιin the O. T.): τάς ἁμαριτας, Hebrews 2:17(ἡμῶν τάς ψυχάς, Philo, alleg. leg. 3, 61). (Cf. Kurtz, Commentary on Hebrews, at the passage cited; Winer's Grammar, 227 (213); Westcott, Epistles of St. John, p. 83f.)
Strong’s Greek 2433 expresses the idea of turning away divine wrath by means of an accepted satisfaction, and thereby securing God’s favorable regard. Because Scripture never portrays God as capricious, propitiation is not a change in His character but the divinely ordained means by which His unchanging holiness and love meet in the forgiveness of sinners.
To be propitious means to appease the wrath of someone, so the question is who is being appeased, whose wrath and anger has been assuaged? In the biblical context, it is God the Father who is appeased by Christ’s propitious death.
It is an act, a transaction that is solely between the Father and the Son; the Son acts on behalf of mankind, but his actions effects the capacity of the Father to be gracious toward us. Thus, Strong’s defining
ἱλάσκω as “the divinely ordained means by which His unchanging holiness and love meet in the forgiveness of sinners.”
Forgiveness is the result of Christ’s propitiating death appeasing the Father’s wrath toward mankind. Propitiating is not forgiveness but the means whereby forgiveness can be given. And how is forgiveness given? “Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38)
Doug
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dwight92070
Active Member
God, in His sovereignty, chose to give us free will. He has not and He will not micromanage our lives.
@TibiasDad
In the Death of Death in the Death of Christ (1647), John Owen offers a famous argument for a limited atonement. This argument appears at the end of Book I
So Doug, which one are you going to chose and support it with scriptures?
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