An Article on free will

Presby02 said:
Job 42:2 "I know you can do anything an no one can stop you."
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You don't recognize the difference in those words?

You're not answering the challenge. You need to go way back to the time of the Reformation and the actually individuals that actually participated. You were not there and you display no evidence you even historical know the information relative to Calvinism.

Also, why are you not posting the sources?

BTW... God can't lie.
 
praise_yeshua said:
You don't recognize the difference in those words?

You're not answering the challenge. You need to go way back to the time of the Reformation and the actually individuals that actually participated. You were not there and you display no evidence you even historical know the information relative to Calvinism.

Also, why are you not posting the sources?

BTW... God can't lie.
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Want more or will those suffice?
 
Johann said:
Yes, that's correct. In the biblical narrative of Exodus 7-9, Pharaoh's heart is hardened multiple times. Initially, it's described that Pharaoh hardens his own heart in response to Moses and Aaron's demands to let the Israelites go. However, as the story progresses, it's also mentioned that God hardens Pharaoh's heart, leading to his refusal to release the Israelites. This interplay between Pharaoh's own decisions and God's intervention raises questions about free will and divine sovereignty.

Certainly. In Exodus 7-9, there are several instances where Pharaoh hardens his own heart. Let's explore these instances along with their scriptural references and some insights into the Hebrew meanings.

Exodus 7:13 (NKJV):
"And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said."

Here, the Hebrew word for "hardened" is chazaq, which means "to strengthen" or "to make firm." Pharaoh's heart becoming hardened implies that he became stubborn and resistant to Moses and Aaron's demands.

Exodus 7:22 (NKJV):
“Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said.”

Again, we see Pharaoh's heart becoming hard as a response to witnessing the miracles performed by Moses and Aaron, as well as his own magicians. The Hebrew term chazaq is used here as well.

Exodus 8:15 (NKJV):
“But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said.”

In this verse, Pharaoh hardens his heart after the removal of the frogs, demonstrating his persistence in resisting the demand to release the Israelites. The term chazaq is used again.

These instances indicate Pharaoh's own stubbornness and resistance to the message and demands of Moses and Aaron. He repeatedly refuses to acknowledge the authority of God and release the Israelites, despite witnessing miraculous signs.

It's important to note that while Pharaoh hardens his own heart in these instances, there are also instances where it is stated that God hardened Pharaoh's heart (e.g., Exodus 9:12). This dual aspect raises theological questions about the interplay between human free will and divine sovereignty in the biblical narrative.

Read carefully
J.
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All subsequent hardening of his heart is an effect of Ex 4:21 as God said, its a no brainer
 
Presby02 said:
Want more or will those suffice?
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They don't agree with one another. Keep going...... Way back to when the Reformers actually commented on Job 42:2

Tell me what Calvin said? Or Knox?

Do you even know the people that started your denomination? Not that they wouldn't deny everyone of you now. Calvin or Knox both wouldn't claim you at all.
 
praise_yeshua said:
They don't agree with one another. Keep going...... Way back to when the Reformers actually commented on Job 42:2

Tell me what Calvin said? Or Knox?

Do you even know the people that started your denomination? Not that they wouldn't deny everyone of you now. Calvin or Knox both wouldn't claim you at all.
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They don't agree with one another?? LOL

Do you now agree no purpose of God can be thwarted?

Try to stay focused
 
Presby02 said:
They don't agree with one another?? LOL

Do you now agree no purpose of God can be thwarted?

Try to stay focused
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I've already answered you. Are you a sock of @brightfame52

Keep going back. You didn't provide enough. Keep going.

Calvin and Knox largely agreed. Especially on Job. So go ahead compare them here and stop pretending you know. Provide evidence.
 
Rockson said:
I think most all have missed the simplicity of really what God was meaning when it says he hardened Pharaohs heart.

It's really a simple thing and we express it a different way today though.
We don't say we have or do harden someone's heart. We do however say this...........I'm going to make them mad....or I have done so. Think of it even on here. One might say what I'm going to say is tick them off.

So here's a question. Did we REALLY make them mad? We can say yes we did BUT no we didn't. One gets what I mean by that. If a person gets mad or offended.....it does not mean they didn't have a choice not to. They chose to do that of their own choice. So we can say no I didn't make them mad....but then again I did. It all depends on how your using the words or in how you receive them. So what was the horrible thing God did to harden Pharaoh's heart? He basically said four words...."Let my people go!" That was it that was what God did to make Pharaoh mad or harden his heart.
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I would rather stay with the biblical text as it stands written brother-

The concept of God hardening Pharaoh's heart in the biblical narrative is indeed a complex and often debated topic. In the story of the Exodus, it is mentioned multiple times that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, leading to his refusal to release the Israelites from slavery. This raises questions about free will, divine intervention, and the nature of God's actions.

Interpreting this passage involves understanding the cultural and literary context of the time. In ancient Hebrew thought, the hardening of one's heart was not just a physical hardening but also a metaphorical expression of stubbornness, pride, and resistance to change. It symbolized a refusal to acknowledge truth or yield to a higher authority.

When it comes to God hardening Pharaoh's heart, it is essential to consider that this action is portrayed within the framework of divine sovereignty and human responsibility. While God is depicted as actively hardening Pharaoh's heart in some passages, it is also noted that Pharaoh himself hardened his own heart on several occasions before this divine intervention.

The phrase "Let my people go!" was indeed a pivotal moment in the narrative, representing God's demand for liberation and justice.

Pharaoh's response to this demand was influenced by his own choices, attitudes, and beliefs. The hardening of his heart can be seen as a consequence of his repeated defiance and refusal to heed God's command.
Ultimately, the hardening of Pharaoh's heart serves as a complex theological theme that highlights the intricate relationship between divine will and human agency. It invites reflection on issues such as moral responsibility, repentance, and the consequences of obstinacy in the face of divine guidance.

The phrase "Let my people go!" in Hebrew is "שַׁלַּח אֶת עַמִּי" (shalach et ami). Here is a breakdown of the Hebrew words and their meanings:

שַׁלַּח (shalach) - This word is a verb in the imperative form, meaning "send" or "let go."

It is derived from the root ש-ל-ח (shin-lamed-chet), which conveys the idea of sending or releasing.

אֶת (et) - This is a preposition in Hebrew that typically marks the direct object of a verb. It does not have a specific meaning on its own but serves as a grammatical marker.

עַמִּי (ami) - This word means "my people" and is composed of two parts:

עַם (am) - This noun means "people" or "nation." It refers to a group of individuals united by common ancestry, culture, or history.

י (i) - This suffix indicates possession or ownership, making the phrase "my people."

In terms of morphology, the verb שַׁלַּח (shalach) belongs to the Pa'al (פָּעַל) verb stem, which is the basic active stem in Hebrew. The imperative form used here signifies a command or request to release or send away.

Overall, the phrase "שַׁלַּח אֶת עַמִּי" (Let my people go!) captures the essence of God's demand for Pharaoh to release the Israelites from bondage in the biblical narrative of the Exodus. It conveys a sense of urgency, authority, and divine intervention in the liberation of God's chosen people.

So yes-an Imperative-when disobeyed CAN make YHVH 'mad" @Rockson
J.
 
brightfame52 said:
All subsequent hardening of his heart is an effect of Ex 4:21 as God said, its a no brainer
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You come across as arrogant-a "know it all" relying on your intellect when it is written we should not lean on OUR own understanding.

To address the statement suggesting that all subsequent instances of Pharaoh's hardened heart are solely due to the event described in Exodus 4:21 would require addressing both the scriptural context and the broader interpretive nuances involved.Exodus 4:21 reads: "Then the LORD said to Moses, 'When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.'"

While this verse mentions God hardening Pharaoh's heart initially, it does not imply that every instance thereafter is exclusively caused by this single event. Instead, the narrative presents various episodes where Pharaoh hardens his own heart independently (e.g., Exodus 7:13; 8:15, 32; 9:34). Moreover, the text suggests that God continues to intervene throughout the series of plagues, sometimes hardening Pharaoh's heart and other times allowing him to soften (e.g., Exodus 9:12; 10:16–17; 11:10).

To claim that all subsequent hardening of Pharaoh's heart is only an effect of Exodus 4:21 oversimplifies the complexity of the narrative and ignores the dynamic interplay between divine providence and human freedom presented in the text.

A more accurate interpretation acknowledges that while God plays a role in shaping events through divine intervention, humans retain their ability to choose their responses.Therefore, if confronting this argument, it may be helpful to emphasize the following points:
  1. The narrative presents a multifaceted view of Pharaoh's hardened heart, involving both divine intervention and human decision-making.
  2. The text itself does not suggest that all subsequent instances of Pharaoh's hardened heart are directly linked to the event described in Exodus 4:21 alone.
  3. Interpretations based on a simplistic reading of the text risk ignoring the richness and depth of the biblical narrative.
  4. A more nuanced approach recognizes the importance of both divine providence and human responsibility in the unfolding drama of the Exodus account.

    We are here to learn from each other-so puncture that overinflated ego for a moment and let us receive the D'varim with MEEKNESS-learning-but never able to come to truth.
    J.
 
Johann said:
You come across as arrogant-a "know it all" relying on your intellect when it is written we should not lean on OUR own understanding.

To address the statement suggesting that all subsequent instances of Pharaoh's hardened heart are solely due to the event described in Exodus 4:21 would require addressing both the scriptural context and the broader interpretive nuances involved.Exodus 4:21 reads: "Then the LORD said to Moses, 'When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.'"

While this verse mentions God hardening Pharaoh's heart initially, it does not imply that every instance thereafter is exclusively caused by this single event. Instead, the narrative presents various episodes where Pharaoh hardens his own heart independently (e.g., Exodus 7:13; 8:15, 32; 9:34). Moreover, the text suggests that God continues to intervene throughout the series of plagues, sometimes hardening Pharaoh's heart and other times allowing him to soften (e.g., Exodus 9:12; 10:16–17; 11:10).

To claim that all subsequent hardening of Pharaoh's heart is only an effect of Exodus 4:21 oversimplifies the complexity of the narrative and ignores the dynamic interplay between divine providence and human freedom presented in the text.

A more accurate interpretation acknowledges that while God plays a role in shaping events through divine intervention, humans retain their ability to choose their responses.Therefore, if confronting this argument, it may be helpful to emphasize the following points:
  1. The narrative presents a multifaceted view of Pharaoh's hardened heart, involving both divine intervention and human decision-making.
  2. The text itself does not suggest that all subsequent instances of Pharaoh's hardened heart are directly linked to the event described in Exodus 4:21 alone.
  3. Interpretations based on a simplistic reading of the text risk ignoring the richness and depth of the biblical narrative.
  4. A more nuanced approach recognizes the importance of both divine providence and human responsibility in the unfolding drama of the Exodus account.

    We are here to learn from each other-so puncture that overinflated ego for a moment and let us receive the D'varim with MEEKNESS-learning-but never able to come to truth.
    J.
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All subsequent hardening of his heart is an effect of Ex 4:21 as God said, its a no brainer
 
civic said:
There are 7 hardening’s between exodus 7-9. They begin with him hardening his own heart.

hope this helps !!!
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Pharaoh hardened his own heart ten times during the first five plagues. However, it’s also mentioned in the Bible that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart seven times. This is a complex theological topic that has been the subject of much discussion and interpretation. The hardening of Pharaoh’s heart is often seen as a demonstration of God’s sovereignty and judgment, as well as Pharaoh’s own stubbornness and resistance
 

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