An Article on free will

[synergy]

Let's start with the interdependency established by free-willian @civic here, as recorded in this thread:



In essence, civic conveyed that these three interdependent statements must together be concurrently true for a single one of the statements to be true:

#1) @civic preaches that the Grace of the Grand Creator God is resistable by man the creature AND

#2) @civic preaches that Christ's payment in full for crime against God (atonement) applies to every person everywhere over the entire planet AND

#3) @civic preaches that the clay chooses the Potter while at the same time the Potter chooses not the clay.

Now, TibiasDad, see how civic has #2 dependent on #3 while at the same time #3 is dependent upon #2, so circular reasoning occurs right there, and the detail following shows specifically how the circular reasoning applies to Free-willian Philosophy.

Free-willians believe that Christ's atonement finishes based upon one choosing to believe in God requiring God to save that one from the wrath of God, yet the one not choosing to believe in God is under the wrath of God; therefore, Christ's finished atonement is contingent upon man's choice. This demonstrates #2 dependent on #3.

On the other hand, free-willians believe that the one not choosing to believe in God is under the wrath of God, yet the one choosing to believe in God requiring God to save that one from the wrath of God finishes Christ's atonement; therefore, Christ's finished atonement is contingent upon man's choice. This demonstrates #3 dependent on #2.

The Free-Willian Philosophy ends with:

1) The Christ establishes "It is finished!" (John 19:30) while on the cross signifying Christ's completed atonement, yet free-willians believe "It is not finished until you choose to believe in me" (the Book of Free-willians 19:30).

2) Christ's finished atonement crashes and burns for the one not choosing to believe in God; therefore, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

3) Free-willians nullify the following Word of God to some degree in their hearts in order to achieve their goals:

• "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5).
• "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).
• "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).
• “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).
• “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:5-8).
• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19).
• "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).
• "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN GOD!!!

The Bible unceasingly proves that Belief always precedes Regeneration.

Question: At what point does one begin to "see the Kingdom of God"? John 3:3 clearly says at the point when one is "born again". (John 3:3) Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. By definition, when one is "born again" he becomes a "child of God" so the two states are synonymous. John 1:12 clearly states that one becomes a child of God when he receives Christ and believes on His name. (John 1:12) But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His name, Conclusion: Belief in Christ precedes being born again. Calvinism comes crashing down before your very eyes in a big ball of fire.

Therefore it's you, not God, you continue to promote a Hindu-like Elect/non-Elect Caste System:

You want your Hindu-like Elect/non-Elect Caste System to cloud and infect what the Bible actually says about Christ and our salvation. Christ is NOT a Hindu god that has instituted a Hindu-like Elect/non-Elect Caste System for our salvation.

 

[TomL]

Let's start with the interdependency established by free-willian @civic here, as recorded in this thread:



In essence, civic conveyed that these three interdependent statements must together be concurrently true for a single one of the statements to be true:

#1) @civic preaches that the Grace of the Grand Creator God is resistable by man the creature AND

#2) @civic preaches that Christ's payment in full for crime against God (atonement) applies to every person everywhere over the entire planet AND

#3) @civic preaches that the clay chooses the Potter while at the same time the Potter chooses not the clay.

Now, TibiasDad, see how civic has #2 dependent on #3 while at the same time #3 is dependent upon #2, so circular reasoning occurs right there, and the detail following shows specifically how the circular reasoning applies to Free-willian Philosophy.

Free-willians believe that Christ's atonement finishes based upon one choosing to believe in God requiring God to save that one from the wrath of God, yet the one not choosing to believe in God is under the wrath of God; therefore, Christ's finished atonement is contingent upon man's choice. This demonstrates #2 dependent on #3.

On the other hand, free-willians believe that the one not choosing to believe in God is under the wrath of God, yet the one choosing to believe in God requiring God to save that one from the wrath of God finishes Christ's atonement; therefore, Christ's finished atonement is contingent upon man's choice. This demonstrates #3 dependent on #2.

The Free-Willian Philosophy ends with:

1) The Christ establishes "It is finished!" (John 19:30) while on the cross signifying Christ's completed atonement, yet free-willians believe "It is not finished until you choose to believe in me" (the Book of Free-willians 19:30).

2) Christ's finished atonement crashes and burns for the one not choosing to believe in God; therefore, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

3) Free-willians nullify the following Word of God to some degree in their hearts in order to achieve their goals:

• "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5).
• "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).
• "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).
• “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).
• “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:5-8).
• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19).
• "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).
• "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN GOD!!!

Frteewill, is seen throughout the bible


(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, but one of free-will.
(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, but of free will.
(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, but by the free will:
(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me out of your own free will without feeling forced to do it.
(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.
(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but according to your own free will.
(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, but of your own free will.
(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.
(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NWT) But without your consent I do not want to do anything, so that your good act may be, not as under compulsion, but of your own free will.
(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity but of free will.
(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force but by free will.
(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion but of your own free will. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.
(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will.
(NASB95) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
(TEV) 14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I would like for you to do it of your own free will. So I will not do anything unless you agree.
(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.
CT 14 but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, but of free will.
NENT 14 but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, but of free will.
SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, but according to free will.
(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, but of your own free will.
(RASV)but without your consent I would do nothing; that your goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
(UASV)but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by necessity but of your own free will.

FREEWILL AS TAUGHT IN SCRIPTUREby Brian H. Wagner, Ph.D.,instructor of church history,theology and biblical languagesat Virginia Baptist CollegeHow often have I read in various Facebook theological discussions the declaration of a Calvinist –“Freewill is not taught in Scriptures”? Of course, the freedom of will to go against one’s nature, even for God, is not possible. It is impossible for God to lie or to deny Himself (Titus 1:2, Heb 6:18, 2 Tim 2:13). And it is impossible for me to fly by just flapping my arms. But the ability to freely make decisions commensurate with the limits of one’s nature and with the opportunities provided for such decision making is logically part of God’s and man’s nature and experience. The exercise of that ability by God and by man is also well documented in Scripture. And I can fly… if I decide to get on an airplane and allow its power to transport me through the air!The following is an attempt at a rather thorough study of words used in the OT and NT that teach aspects and examples of the exercise of freewill. The reader will hopefully become convinced, contrary to Calvinistic dramatic false statements in opposition, that freewill is clearly taught in the Scriptures –The Hebrew word [verb] נדב naw-dab’ is a primitive root that means – to impel; hence, to volunteer (as a soldier), to present spontaneously…primarily translated as an adverb “willingly” which indicates free motivation or voluntary decision. It is used 17 times in 15 verses throughout OT Scripture [also 3 times in 3 verses using the same root in Aramaic – Ezra 7:13, 15, 16]. (Most of definitions for this paper are adapted from Strong’s Concordance lexical definitions.)Here are all the verses that translate this word, נדב naw-dab’, with the translation of it underlined. The ESV translation for each verse was chosen to accommodate Calvinist readers, so they won’t have to keep running back to their favorite translation, which is deterministically flavored. Exod 25:2 ESV “… From every man whose heart moves him you shall receive the contributionfor me.Exod 35:21 ESV And they came, everyone whose heart stirred him, and everyone whose spiritmoved him….Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them tobring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it asa freewill offering to the LORD.Judg 5:2 ESV …that the leaders took the lead in Israel, that the people offered themselveswillingly, bless the LORD!Ezr 7:13 ESV – 13 I make a decree that anyone of the people of Israel or their priests or Levitesin my kingdom, who freely offers to go to Jerusalem, may go with you.—-[The verbal form in this last verse is a participle, on the Hithpael stem, which is reflexive in meaning, thus the word “themselves” should be added. This Hithpael verbal stem is used 17 times in the same reflexive way – Jg 5:2, 9; 1Ch 29:5, 6, 9(2x), 14, 17(2x); 2Ch 17:16; Ezr 1:6, 2:68, 3:5, 7:13, 15, 16; Neh 11:2]. The reflexive action only helps to emphasize the non-compulsory action of the person’s will in the decision made in each context—-The noun נדבה ned-aw-baw’ is used 26 times in 25 verses, mostly in connection with a voluntary –“freewill” – offering to God. With all these verses one cannot help but ask “How can you have a freewill offering without a freewill?” Calvinists reject its normal meaning, but the Bible literally uses the word 26 times. Even the Calvinist translators of the KJV and ESV freely chose “freewill” as a suitable translation. Their translation choice is telling of what they believed this original word meant.Here are the verses in which this noun is used:Exod 35:29 ESV All the men and women, the people of Israel, whose heart moved them tobring anything for the work that the LORD had commanded by Moses to be done brought it asa freewill offering to the LORD. —-[The idea in this verse of a sacrifice made as a free-will offering, one not commanded as an obligation, is also found in – Ex 36:3; Le 7:16; 22:18, 21, 23; 23:38; Nu 15:3; 29:39; De 12:6, 17; 16:10; 2Ch 31:14; Ezr 1:4; 3:5; 8:28; Ps 54:6; 119:108; Eze 46:12(2x); Am 4:5]Deut 23:23 ESV You shall be careful to do what has passed your lips, for you have voluntarilyvowed to the LORD your God what you have promised with your mouth.2Ch 35:8 ESV And his officials contributed willingly to the people, to the priests, and to theLevites….Ps 68:9 ESV Rain in abundance, O God, you shed abroad; you restored your inheritance as itlanguished;Ps 110:3 ESV Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power, in holygarments; from the womb of the morning, the dew of your youth will be yours.Hos 14:4 ESV I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for my anger has turned fromthem.—All these OT verses clearly confirm that man, even an unregenerate man, can exercise a free-will in a manner pleasing to God. Even God is said to exercise His freewill in Hos 14:4. The translation in Ps 68:9 was obviously determined with some subjectivity. It could easily be translated – “A shower of freewill gifts, O God, you have shed abroad…”Here are some NT words and verses to consider that also speak to the issue of the freedom of the will. A Calvinist may try to attribute all of the following examples as a result of regeneration, but that does not seem to fit this first example –Acts 17:11-12 ESV Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they receivedthe word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Manyof them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.—-[from προθυμια proth-oo-mee’-ah, meaning predisposition. See also – 2Co 8:11, 12, 19, 9:2;] The Calvinist may endeavor to suggest this willing predisposition of the Bereans was a result of regeneration, which they think is before faith is expressed. It is very difficult to convince them otherwise when their loyalty to Calvinism is so strong that they refuse to see the gospel of John clearly teaches light is freely received before faith which is before new birth life is given. See John 1:4-13, 12:35-36, 20:30-31.Other NT verses to consider that speak to the issue of freewill are these –1Cor 7:37 ESV But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity buthaving his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as hisbetrothed, he will do well. —-from μη ἔχων ἀνάγκην , literally – “not having a necessity”, which would be impossible if everything was predetermined eternally and immutably, making every event a necessary result of God’s decree. Notice also the verse says this man “having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart.”1Cor 9:17 ESV For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I amstill entrusted with a stewardship. —- from εχων hek-own’ meaning willingly.2Cor 8:3 ESV For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means,of their own accord, and 2Cor 8:17 ESV For he not only accepted our appeal, but being himselfvery earnest he is going to you of his own accord. —-from αυθαιρετος ow-thah’-ee-ret-os –meaning self-chosen, and by implication – voluntary.2Cor 9:7 ESV Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or undercompulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. —- from προαιρεομαι pro-ahee-reh’-om-ahee –meaning to choose for oneself before another thing, to prefer and by implication, to intend.Phlm 1:14 ESV but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodnessmight not be by compulsion but of your own accord. —- from εκουσιος hek-oo’-see-on –meaning willingness.1Pet 5:2 ESV shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not undercompulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; —-from εκουσιον hek-oo-see’-ose – meaning willingly.The existence of a free will, even post regeneration, runs counter to the idea of an eternally immutable divine will that had completely determined everything forever into the future before creation began. Calvinism is based upon that philosophical premise, making the exercise of any freewill for God or man impossible, before creation and especially after it. That premise makes a falsehood out of these clear Scriptures shared here. These Scriptures and many others clearly show that free will does exist and is being exercised by God and man

 

[TomL]

Let's start with the interdependency established by free-willian @civic here, as recorded in this thread:



In essence, civic conveyed that these three interdependent statements must together be concurrently true for a single one of the statements to be true:

#1) @civic preaches that the Grace of the Grand Creator God is resistable by man the creature AND

#2) @civic preaches that Christ's payment in full for crime against God (atonement) applies to every person everywhere over the entire planet AND

#3) @civic preaches that the clay chooses the Potter while at the same time the Potter chooses not the clay.

#1) Just like scripture shows

Acts 7:51 (KJV 1900) — 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Jeremiah 18:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good. 12 And they said, There is no hope: but we will walk after our own devices, and we will every one do the imagination of his evil heart.

#2) I believe you misrepresent the view of Civic herel

Christ died for all

1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


But he did not pay for the sins of all

Atonement requires Faith before it applies benefit

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]

---

[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



#3) Here again you likely misrepresent Civic

God chooses who will be saved, but he chooses to save those who trust in Christ

That is his will

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[Administrator]

4. Copy and paste of large amounts of text.

4a. Please limit your posts to 10K characters or less and do not copy & paste large amounts of content.

4b. Feel free to copy and paste your own writings. But please limit the amount of copy and paste of text from websites and include a link for members to read the rest of the article. What would be ideal would be one paragraph and then the link to the rest of the information. No more than 2 cut and pastes per day, per thread. Educators teach rules governing the length of paragraphs. They say that a paragraph should be 100 to 200 words long, or be no more than five or six sentences. This goes for everyone.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/the-rules.47/

 

[civic]

I am only interested in you demonstrating my arguments as circular, not what you think about @civic’s! (His arguments are not circular either, but I’ll let him defend his own arguments; he doesn’t need my help!)


Doug

ditto without the long cut n pasting

 

[Kermos]

Same repetition which never addresses rebuttal

John 15:16

Again Christs choice of his apostles

His disciples were given to him by the Father.

John 17:6–12

From them he chose 12 to be apostles

Luke 6:13–16 (ESV)

John 6:70 (ESV)

John 13:18 (UASV)

clearly Christ chose his apostles

Ye have not
Albert Barnes, 341.

consider the various choices here

Matthew 22:1–14 (ESV)

Think of how many times passages like John 15:16 (“You did not choose me; I chose you…”) are used as proof texts for the Calvinistic belief of individual election to salvation when clearly Jesus is speaking to His servants who are being prepared to take the invitation to the rest of the world. They are using Divine Choice #1 as proof for their belief about Divine Choice #3.

Divine Choice #1: The choice of His servants, who were given the task of sending out the invitation.

Divine Choice #2: The choice to send the invitation first to His own and then to all others.

Divine Choice #3: The choice to allow only those clothed in proper wedding garments to enter the feast.

In John 15:16 we have the choice of the apostles

Jn 15:16.

Lk 6:12–16.

True, the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin and William Pringle, Commentary on the Gospel according to John (vol. 2; Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010), 119.

16. οὐχ ὑμεῖς.

In John 15:16, Jesus is not talking about choosing people to salvation, nor is he speaking generally of believers. Rather, he is talking specifically of picking his apostles and preparing them for their ministry, all of which Jesus accomplished during his earthly ministry. There is nothing here about selecting people for salvation before creation.
Smelley, Hutson. Deconstructing Calvinism: A Biblical Analysis and Refutation (p. 184). Hutson Smelley. Kindle Edition.

John 15:5 speaks of the believers walk not the ability to believe

John 3:3 speaks of on experiencing the kingdom of God not seeing it

see someth.=experience

William Arndt et al.,

As seen the context of John 3:3 is speaking of experiencing not believing as you falsely claimed

Observed this well known Calvinist commentary

cannot see—can have no part in (just as one is said to “see life,” “see death,” &c.).

Robert Jamieson, 131.

And this Calvinist Greek Scholar

A.T. Robertson,

And Calvin himself

To SEE the kingdom of God is of the same meaning as to ENTER INTO the kingdom of God, as we shall immediately perceive from the context

John Calvin, 108.

Also other verses using the word see

Luke 2:26

John 3:36

John 8:51

Heb 11:5

It is clear an honest handling of this word shows it pertains to experience, to enter, to obtain

and this is one of the most absurd things I have ever heard

So the whole world does not indicate the whole world

Show the whole world means believers only

1 John 2:2

In 1 John 5:19 we read this: "And we [Christians] know that we [Christians] are of God, and THE WHOLE WORLD [non-Christians] lieth in wickedness [in the wicked one]".

You wrote "John 15:5 speaks of the believers walk not the ability to believe", so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

TomL's Self-exaltation		Exaltation of Christ
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for you can choose to believe in me apart from Me (TomL 15:5).		I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5).

so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the Holy Scripture.

You wrote "John 3:3 speaks of on experiencing the kingdom of God not seeing it", so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

The word of TomL		The Word of God
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience yet he can see the Kingdom of God (TomL 3:3).		Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).

so your heart preaches your sovereignty of man eliminating the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the Holy Scripture again.

You quote your god Calvin with "the subject now in hand is not the ordinary election of believers, by which they are adopted to be the children of God, but that special election, by which he set apart his disciples to the office of preaching the Gospel11 John Calvin", so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

TomL's testimony		John's Testimony
you apostles only did not choose to preach the gospel of Me, yet anyone can choose in their own free-will to believe in Me for salvation, but I only chose you apostles to preach the gospel yet I chose not you nor anyone else for salvation (TomL 15:16). I chose not you out of the world (TomL 15:19, excludes salvation).		you did not choose Me, but I chose you (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16). I chose you out of the world (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation).

so the Word of God declares to His audience of all believers in Christ in all time the exclusive Sovereignty of God in choosing man unto salvation, yet your heart exalts your sovereignty of man while demoting the Sovereignty of God, and so go your adulterations of the Holy Scripture again and again.

You, provisionist ( edited out calvinist)you, wrote as support for your free-will "Observed this well known Calvinist commentary", yet I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian following in the footsteps of and believing in Christ Jesus my Lord and Savior for this loving Savior impart into me the blessed work of God in my heart which always and forever succeeds *]"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29)!

You believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you preach anti-truth.

You wrote "So the whole world does not indicate the whole world Show the whole world means believers only", yet your writing of "And we [Christians] know that we [Christians] are of God, and THE WHOLE WORLD [non-Christians] lieth in wickedness [in the wicked one]" shows you fight against that which God causes me to proclaim - the word world is limited by context.

No Holy Scripture that you mentioned limits the audience to exclusively the apostles for the words recorded in John 15:16-19. Your post was severely truncated in order to accommodate the 10,000 character post limit.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS!!!

 

[TomL]

You wrote "John 15:5 speaks of the believers walk not the ability to believe", so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

This is the word of God showing men have the ability to believe

I do not expect you will actually address the verses

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony



Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.

Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient






John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



Miracles have power to bring about faith



John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

 

[Kampioen]

You wrote "John 15:5 speaks of the believers walk not the ability to believe", so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:

God created libertarian free will, options and abilities within His oversight ie not beyond His oversight.

God is incapable of creating beyond His oversight because there's nothing beyond God.

 

[civic]

God created libertarian free will, options and abilities within His oversight ie not beyond His oversight.

God is incapable of creating beyond His oversight because there's nothing beyond God.

Amen

 

[civic]

This is the word of God showing men have the ability to believe

I do not expect you will actually address the verses

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony



Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.

Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God

Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.



Convincing them Jesus was the Christ



Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient






John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.



John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?



Miracles have power to bring about faith



John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?



Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

yes the poster who is a fatalist has a false gospel and christ.

 

[TomL]

yes the poster who is a fatalist has a false gospel and christ.

And instead of addressing the individual verses he/she will ramble on about what free willianism and my heart teach

 

[Kermos]

I am only interested in you demonstrating my arguments as circular, not what you think about @civic’s! (His arguments are not circular either, but I’ll let him defend his own arguments; he doesn’t need my help!)


Doug

God caused me to illustrate the circular reasoning of Free-willian Philosophy, and you had written (your whole post):

Please feel free to demonstrate specific examples of this circular reasoning! Worry not, I’m not holding my breath.


Doug

The objective was satisfied.

Free-willian Philosophy holds that while a person is not in Christ, that person chooses Christ for salvation, and that "not in Christ" is "apart from Christ"; therefore, you believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE PROVISIONER OF LIFE!!!

 

[TomL]

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE PROVISIONER OF LIFE!!!

You never addressed this

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-118480

 

[civic]

God caused me to illustrate the circular reasoning of Free-willian Philosophy, and you had written (your whole post):



The objective was satisfied.

Free-willian Philosophy holds that while a person is not in Christ, that person chooses Christ for salvation, and that "not in Christ" is "apart from Christ"; therefore, you believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE PROVISIONER OF LIFE!!!

Nice try but another failed attempt with your EISEGESIS.

BASIC HERMENUETICS 101.

Jesus is talking only to the 12 in those verses. Apart from Me you ( the 12) can do nothing.

Don't flatter yourself Jesus was addressing His disciples not you in those passages.

next FALLACY

hope this helps !!!

 

[TomL]

Nice try but another failed attempt with your EISEGESIS.

BASIC HERMENUETICS 101.

Jesus is talking only to the 12 in those verses. Apart from Me you ( the 12) can do nothing.

Don't flatter yourself Jesus was addressing His disciples not you in those passages.

next FALLACY

hope this helps !!!

In any case, it does not refer to believing in him.

 

[TibiasDad]

God caused me to illustrate the circular reasoning of Free-willian Philosophy, and you had written (your whole post):



The objective was satisfied.

Free-willian Philosophy holds that while a person is not in Christ, that person chooses Christ for salvation, and that "not in Christ" is "apart from Christ"; therefore, you believe "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63).

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE PROVISIONER OF LIFE!!!

In other words, you can’t show me where I am circular in my reasoning. You have no specific instance or definitive example of being in error.

That’s what I figured,

Doug

 

[civic]

In other words, you can’t show me where I am circular in my reasoning. You have no specific instance or definitive example of being in error.

That’s what I figured,

Doug

Exactly brother !

Empty rhetoric and false claims as expected

 

[Kermos]

God created libertarian free will, options and abilities within His oversight ie not beyond His oversight.

God is incapable of creating beyond His oversight because there's nothing beyond God.

I have a historical listing of your posts directed at me which you replied to posts directed to @Presby02, @TibiasDad @civic, @synergy, and @TomL, but you managed to fail to respond to post #4,015 directed to you which addresses that which you preach of your "libertarian free will", again.

Your personal purported "libertarian free will" is the same thing as "self-will apart from Christ" which you believe enabled you to come to Christ.

In Truth (John 14:6), Almighty God dictates precisely the persons who come to God because the Word of God says “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21), and this includes the work of God in us believers believing in the Son whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

I intend not to move on from this, Kampioen, because you preach your personal purported "libertarian free will" without any support by the Word of God, yet you use your self-will that is apart from God (free-will) to preach a god that is less than almighty as decisively demonstrated in the following.

The problem is you don't answer yes or no. But I am assuming you don't believe in secondary causes.

But if this is so, then everything is actuated unilaterally directly by God, including thoughts and actions.

Then we are really not communicating with each other but actuated by God. Like string puppets that are not really communication with each other or scriptures, including you.

You wrote "string puppets" in contrast to "vessels" which God's vessel of mercy Apostle Paul wrote:

18 He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
(Romans 9:18-23)
​

So, faithful, glorious, and graceful Lord and God Jesus Christ fills us vessel of mercy with God's works of mercy which God prepared beforehand for glory!

Paul declares God's Sovereign control of man with "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Romans 9:18).

Immediately after writing that God is in control, Paul continued with "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'" (Romans 9:19) - herein resides man wrongly assigning man's accountability for sin to God - the fault question.

Romans 9:18 segues right into Romans 9:19-23.

Bringing these together:

Paul conveyed "God is in control" (Romans 9:18) then the "you" defiantly mocks God's control with "Why does He still find fault since everything is actuated unilaterally directly by God? For who among string puppets resists His will?" (the book of Second Opinions 9:19).

The "you" in Romans 9:19-20 is the person who rejects God by way of rejecting God's exclusive control of man's salvation; in other words, the "you" is the person that claims man has a free will.

Do not forget that it is written that no purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2), so scripture reveals that man cannot resist God's will, and Paul knows scripture.

Notice the "you" questioning why God still finds fault. Paul conveys that the "you" asks the fault question in a mocking manner, and the subsequent question about God's will continues with the "you" mocking God who is entirely in control of man's salvation according to Paul (Ephesians 2:8-10 for example).

The "you" is certainly mocking because immediately after the question about God's will, Paul wrote:

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (Romans 9:20)
​

See the "On the contrary" which is indicative that the following statement of Paul refutes the mocking questions of the "you" about the fault question and the question about God's will (in Romans 9:19).

Paul continues immediately after "On the contrary" in Romans 9:20 showing that the thing molded cannot resist the will of the Molder.

The thing molded represents the "you".

The Molder represents God.

IN TRUTH, PAUL CONVEYS THAT MAN CANNOT RESIST GOD'S WILL (ROMANS 9:19-20)!

Behold the parallel of the defiant "you" as adversary against God (in Romans 9:19-20) to free-willians based upon the content of free-willian philosophical writings - look at your post, Kampioen.

My brother Paul wrote "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

Please see the integrally integrated continuation post #4,015 for more of the relevant Holy Scripture.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY, ALL GLORY TO EL SHADDAI!!!

 

[TomL]

I have a historical listing of your posts directed at me which you replied to posts directed to @Presby02, @TibiasDad @civic, @synergy, and @TomL, but you managed to fail to respond to post #4,015 directed to you which addresses that which you preach of your "libertarian free will", again.

Your personal purported "libertarian free will" is the same thing as "self-will apart from Christ" which you believe enabled you to come to Christ.

In Truth (John 14:6), Almighty God dictates precisely the persons who come to God because the Word of God says “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21), and this includes the work of God in us believers believing in the Son whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

I intend not to move on from this, Kampioen, because you preach your personal purported "libertarian free will" without any support by the Word of God, yet you use your self-will that is apart from God (free-will) to preach a god that is less than almighty as decisively demonstrated in the following.



You wrote "string puppets" in contrast to "vessels" which God's vessel of mercy Apostle Paul wrote:

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18 He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.​

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19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory​

(Romans 9:18-23)​

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So, faithful, glorious, and graceful Lord and God Jesus Christ fills us vessel of mercy with God's works of mercy which God prepared beforehand for glory!

Paul declares God's Sovereign control of man with "He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires" (Romans 9:18).

Immediately after writing that God is in control, Paul continued with "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?'" (Romans 9:19) - herein resides man wrongly assigning man's accountability for sin to God - the fault question.

Romans 9:18 segues right into Romans 9:19-23.

Bringing these together:

Paul conveyed "God is in control" (Romans 9:18) then the "you" defiantly mocks God's control with "Why does He still find fault since everything is actuated unilaterally directly by God? For who among string puppets resists His will?" (the book of Second Opinions 9:19).

The "you" in Romans 9:19-20 is the person who rejects God by way of rejecting God's exclusive control of man's salvation; in other words, the "you" is the person that claims man has a free will.

Do not forget that it is written that no purpose of God's can be thwarted (Job 42:2), so scripture reveals that man cannot resist God's will, and Paul knows scripture.

Notice the "you" questioning why God still finds fault. Paul conveys that the "you" asks the fault question in a mocking manner, and the subsequent question about God's will continues with the "you" mocking God who is entirely in control of man's salvation according to Paul (Ephesians 2:8-10 for example).

The "you" is certainly mocking because immediately after the question about God's will, Paul wrote:

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On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (Romans 9:20)​

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See the "On the contrary" which is indicative that the following statement of Paul refutes the mocking questions of the "you" about the fault question and the question about God's will (in Romans 9:19).

Paul continues immediately after "On the contrary" in Romans 9:20 showing that the thing molded cannot resist the will of the Molder.

The thing molded represents the "you".

The Molder represents God.

IN TRUTH, PAUL CONVEYS THAT MAN CANNOT RESIST GOD'S WILL (ROMANS 9:19-20)!

Behold the parallel of the defiant "you" as adversary against God (in Romans 9:19-20) to free-willians based upon the content of free-willian philosophical writings - look at your post, Kampioen.

My brother Paul wrote "it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

Please see the integrally integrated continuation post #4,015 for more of the relevant Holy Scripture.

Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY, ALL GLORY TO EL SHADDAI!!!

You still fail to address this

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-118480

I am not surprised

 

[synergy]

You preach your god Calvin because you are a Calvinist quoting Calvinists as support for your belief in free-will.

Why did you use your free-will to write accusations that nobody does or promotes in any way, shape, or form? Its either that or your god caused you to spew out lies. Which is it?