civic
Well-known member
ditto
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
There is absolutely no evidence he was with them on every occasion
You believe in your Christ's failure atonement as comprehensively proven below, in Truth (John 14:6).
I do not intend to leave this behind, civic, just like I explained to you previously.
God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted in your post.
According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
- if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
- if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
- The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of John | |
| The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world for people like Judas Iscariot and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God! (civic 1:29) | The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29) |
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Hebrews | |
| But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God. (civic 2:9) | But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9) |
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (civic 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared (civic 3:4) | But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared (Titus 3:4) |
Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!
Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The word of civic | The Word of God | |
| For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (civic 3:16) | For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16) |
Your adulterations continue:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of Timothy | |
| Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 civic 2:4) | Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) |
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book of Peter | |
| The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance. (2 civic 3:9) | The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) |
Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.
You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so everyone except current Christians are included in "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of John | |
| He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy. (1 civic 2:2) | He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2) |
Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book to the Corinthians | |
| For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing (2 civic 5:14) | For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (2 Corinthians 5:14) |
We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
You make false statements about God and man (1 John 4:1). Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! THE LORD IS MY SALVATION!!!
Spamming again snipped
It was not a failure as it saves those who believe and made possible the salvation of all
You simply assume atonement of itself saves.
Vicarious atonement however requires one place their faith in it
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You're judging the atonement as "providing forgiveness" in the same manner most anyone would.
The issue is the "Scope" of the Atonement. Providing atonement by any measure can not possible equal failure.
You just want your "few". Your appeal to such a "little" sort can easily be seen as failure.
You should rethink your approach in dealing with this.
He/she has shown him/her self unable to deal with verses showing Christ died for all
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]
[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.
Nothing of your repetitive writing changes the Truth (John 14:6) in the below.
You fail to see the Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) of post #4,924 and in the following.
You believe you buy your way into heaven with your free-will saying "apart from Christ, I chose Christ so Christ must profit me with salvation", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) and “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) and “It is the Spirit who gives Life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are Spirit and are Life” (John 6:63), so you preach and teach and believe falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
You wrote "John 15:5 speaks of the believers walk not the ability to believe" (proof post #4,906), so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| TomL's Self-exaltation | Exaltation of Christ | |
| I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for you can choose to believe in me apart from Me (TomL 15:5). | I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5). |
Moreover, you do not believe Jesus (John 5:45-47) when He says "see" (John 3:3) as can be seen in when you wrote "John 3:3 speaks of on experiencing the kingdom of God not seeing it" (proof post #4,906), so you adulterate the Word of God in order for your heart to nullify the Word of God, and your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) interpretation intention to delete the Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The word of TomL | The Word of God | |
| Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience yet he can see the Kingdom of God (TomL 3:3). | Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3). |
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD - THE GIVER OF LIFE AND SIGHT!!!
Once again you fail to address the scripture
Still spamming the same reply while failing to address the verses before you
No spam is your repeat comments which do not address what was posted
John 1:6-7
John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.
John 5:45-47
John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony
John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony
Acts 19:8 (ESV) — 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God.
Paul persauded men concerning the Kingdom of God
Acts 17:2–4 (ESV) — 2 And Paul went in, as was his custom, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a great many of the devout Greeks and not a few of the leading women.
Convincing them Jesus was the Christ
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Even the preaching of the old testament is sufficient
John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief
2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:4-11
As is the preaching of it.
Romans 10:10-17
Acts 28:23–24
John 7:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
Miracles have power to bring about faith
John 5:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?
Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief
Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed
Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe
Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe
Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?
Now once again your failed to address what was posted and repeat yourself and so are spamming yet again
Al you do is repeat yourself and ignore rebuttal to your claims
address rebuttal
The Vine says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5) to all believing Christians in all time.
You wrote "The World Hates the Disciples"; therefore, there is no way in your own self-will to go from a hater of Christ's disciples to a lover of Christ's disciples apart from Christ (John 15:5), and according to your hermeneutics, civic, you live not as a branch in the Vine. I'm not going to call your interpretation a fallacy on that point.
In your hermeneutics, the Apostle Peter's words recorded in Acts 1:21-23 are irrelevant to the discourse recorded in John 15.
And, according to your hermeneutics, civic, your confused interpretation has 12 Apostles present at the time Jesus issued the blessing recorded in John 15:5, but there is record of a single person leaving the supper prior to the supper's conclusion, and that person is Judas Iscariot in the John 13:21-30 passage; therefore, at the time that Jesus spoke His loving words recorded in John 15:5, there were only 11 Apostles present. With that fallacy established as the leaven of your loaf, there is more.
And, according to your hermeneutics, civic, your heart must nullify Apostolic testimony because the Apostles specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus and the Apostles as described here:
"Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection." So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias.
(Acts 1:21-23)
In the upper room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13), and these disciples recognized Matthias and Joseph as disciples that were with them from the beginning, and not a single disciple contradicted Peter's prounouncement of "men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us".
Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more disciples beyond the eleven disciples who are specifically identified as part of Christ's audience at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17 - including John 15:5.
Your hermeneutics are proven to be your heart defining scripture for you instead of the Word of God defining you.
As it turns out, that which you call a fallacy is a blessing of the Word of God. Your message is riddled by your malinterpretation.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!
civic
Well-known member
You jumped to and fro and went all over the place.
The fact is you cannot prove I’m wrong about John 15 that it’s about His disciples not about you.
All you have is your opinion and assumptions where I stayed with the text proving it’s about His 11 disciples present with Him.
Jesus the True Vine
Abiding in Love: A Deep Dive into John 15
John 15, a chapter filled with divine love and instructions, shines a light on the believer's journey. The vivid analogy of the vine and branches underscores our absolute need for a relationship with Jesus to live fruitful lives. Moreover, the commandment of love sets the standard for relationships, while the promise of the Holy Spirit and warning of persecution provide comfort and preparation for the trials to come.biblehub
Verses 1-8: The Vine and the Branches
Jesus uses the metaphor of a vine and its branches to explain the relationship between Himself (the true vine), His disciples (the branches), and His Father (the vineyard keeper). He emphasizes the necessity of abiding in Him to bear fruit.
Verses 9-17: Abiding in Love
Jesus instructs His disciples to abide in His love, just as He abides in His Father's love. He re-emphasizes the commandment to love one another and elucidates that greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.
Verses 18-25: The World's Hatred
Jesus warns His disciples that they will face persecution from the world because they are not of the world. He points out that their persecution is due to the world's hatred of Him.
Verses 26-27: The Witness of the Holy Spirit
Jesus ends by reiterating the promise of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, who will bear witness about Him. And the disciples also will bear witness because they have been with Him from the beginning.
John 15 brings us deeper into Jesus' discourse with His disciples during the Last Supper. He presents the profound analogy of the vine and the branches to explain the relationship between Him, His followers, and the Father. He also reiterates the commandment to love one another, warns of impending persecution, and promises the coming of the Holy Spirit.
Themes
The Vine and the Branches
Abiding in Christ's Love
The Commandment to Love One Another
Persecution for His Name's Sake
The Witness of the Holy Spirit
Topics
The allegory of the vine and the branches
The importance of abiding in Jesus
The commandment of love
The promise and role of the Holy Spirit
The world's hatred and persecution
People
Jesus Christ
The Disciples
The Father (God)
The Holy Spirit
The World
Locations
The Vineyard (Symbolic)
The Upper Room (Place of the Last Supper)
Next
hope this helps !!!
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It's the Kermos way.
civic
Well-known member
ditto
God caused me to convey that self-willed man conjured up free-will, yet I wrote not God conjured free-will, so read the expanded below because the Holy Scripture explains the situation with awesome clarity. Do you believe the following Holy Scripture?
Fundamentally, you are asking, is God Almighty? Or, asked another way, does God reign in the affairs of man? We must turn to Holy Scripture for the Truth (John 14:6)!
The Truth (John 14:6) is "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).
God declares to man his thoughts:
behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought, who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD, the God of hosts, is his name!
(Amos 4:13)
Man is accountable to God:
I tell you that every careless word that men speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 12:36)
God establishes which of man believe in God:
I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes
(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).
God is always good:
And the Apostle Peter declares the Power of God:
"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties"
(2 Peter 2:9-10).
God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to will according to God's Way, and God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to work joyfully according to God's Way:
"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure"
(Philippians 2:13).
Hear Apostolic testimony about God's Hand intimately controlling people's lives, even Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the peoples of Israel:
"O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
'Why did the Gentiles rage,
And the peoples devise futile things?
'The kings of the earth took their stand,
And the rulers were gathered together
Against the Lord and against His Christ.'
For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus."
(Acts 4:24-30, the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John and the Assembly of God were together when they lifted their voices to God with one accord)
The Apostle Paul wrote of people who exalt the creature above the Grand Creator:
"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false"
(2 Thessalonians 2:11).
The Way (John 14:6) is “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (The Word of God, John 6:29).
The Life (John 14:6) is “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (The Word of God, John 3:21).
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY, ALL GLORY TO EL SHADDAI!!!
civic
Well-known member
Good point. @Kermos either used his free-will to write accusations that nobody believes or his god caused him to spew out lies when he wrote the following:
Kermos absolutely refuses to respond to that observation because his calvinism will be exposed as fraudulent either way.
civic
Well-known member
Ditto
So God causes the righteous but the rest are by their own cause without God's cause?
