An Article on free will

[TomL]

Believers. So i ask again, was Paul saying God grants belief to those who already believe?

No text states granted faith to believers

but when are you going to address

You still have not explained how you believe God gives faith

You have been dodging this for days

this is just another instance of your dodging

Glad you affirmed enabling is not the same as giving

BTW do you have a verse which actually states God gives saving faith?

 

[Presby02]

No text states granted faith to believers

but when are you going to address

You still have not explained how you believe God gives faith

You have been dodging this for days

this is just another instance of your dodging

Glad you affirmed enabling is not the same as giving

BTW do you have a verse which actually states God gives saving faith?

Tell civic that. LOL

Never said it was.

Now how is my position contradictory?

When my question is finally addressed I will happily address yours. That's how it works

 

[civic]

No text states granted faith to believers

but when are you going to address

You still have not explained how you believe God gives faith

You have been dodging this for days

this is just another instance of your dodging

Glad you affirmed enabling is not the same as giving

BTW do you have a verse which actually states God gives saving faith?

Yes the dodger strikes again

 

[TomL]

Now we have believers who have no faith?

Its not saving faith but faith to help live the Christian life and have faith for the working of spiritual gifts

 

[civic]

Its not saving faith but faith to help live the Christian life and have faith for the working of spiritual gifts

Yes he is conflating them as expected and diverting and dodging it playing possum

 

[TomL]

Yes he is conflating them as expected and diverting and dodging it playing possum

I mean it is so clear that spiritual gifts are for believers who have the Spirit not unbelievers who do not.

 

[Presby02]

Its not saving faith but faith to help live the Christian life and have faith for the working of spiritual gifts

Says the text nowhere

 

[brightfame52]

Have you always believed defining terms is a waste of time?

ἀρχηγός, οῦ, ὁ—1. leader, ruler, prince (Aeschyl.+; POxy. 41, 5; 6 and mostly LXX) ἀ. καὶ σωτήρ Ac 5:31 (this combin. also 2 Cl 20:5).—τ. ζωῆς 3:15, where mng. 3 is also poss.
2. one who begins someth. as first in a series and thus supplies the impetus (Aristot., Metaph. 1, 3 of Thales ὁ τῆς τοιαύτης ἀρχηγὸς φιλοσοφίας; Aristoxenus, fgm. 83 Ὄλυμπος ἀ. γενέσθαι τ. Ἑλληνικῆς μουσικῆς; Polyb. 5, 10, 1; Plut., Mor. 958D; 1135B; Dit., Or. 219, 26 ἀ. τοῦ γένους; 1 Macc 9:61; 10:47; Mi 1:13; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 130[of Moses]) in bad sense instigator 1 Cl 14:1 ζήλους; ἀ. στάσεως 51:1 (cf. Herodian 7, 1, 11 ἀ. τ. ἀποστάσεως).
3. originator, founder (Diod. S. 15, 81, 2 ἀ. τῆς νίκης=originator; 16, 3, 5 τῆς βασιλείας ἀ.=founder; Jos., Ant. 7, 207.Oft. of God: Pla., Tim. 21E al.; Isocr. 4, 61 τῶν ἀγαθῶν; Diod. S. 5, 64, 5; Dit., Or. 90, 47, Syll.3 711L, 13 Apollo ἀ. τ. εὐσεβείας) ἀ. τῆς ἀφθαρσίας 2 Cl 20:5; ἀ. τῆς σωτηρίας Hb 2:10; τῆς πίστεως ἀ. 12:2. M-M.*


William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 112.

Why waste time

 

[TomL]

Says the text nowhere

Examine the passage it is the fruit of the Spirit for believers not for unbelievers who do not have the Spirit and are not led by the Spirit

Galatians 5:13–26 (KJV 1900) — 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

unbelievers do not live in the Spirit or walk in the Spirit

 

[TomL]

Why waste time

For understanding


Have you always believed defining terms is a waste of time?

ἀρχηγός, οῦ, ὁ—1. leader, ruler, prince (Aeschyl.+; POxy. 41, 5; 6 and mostly LXX) ἀ. καὶ σωτήρ Ac 5:31 (this combin. also 2 Cl 20:5).—τ. ζωῆς 3:15, where mng. 3 is also poss.
2. one who begins someth. as first in a series and thus supplies the impetus (Aristot., Metaph. 1, 3 of Thales ὁ τῆς τοιαύτης ἀρχηγὸς φιλοσοφίας; Aristoxenus, fgm. 83 Ὄλυμπος ἀ. γενέσθαι τ. Ἑλληνικῆς μουσικῆς; Polyb. 5, 10, 1; Plut., Mor. 958D; 1135B; Dit., Or. 219, 26 ἀ. τοῦ γένους; 1 Macc 9:61; 10:47; Mi 1:13; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 130[of Moses]) in bad sense instigator 1 Cl 14:1 ζήλους; ἀ. στάσεως 51:1 (cf. Herodian 7, 1, 11 ἀ. τ. ἀποστάσεως).
3. originator, founder (Diod. S. 15, 81, 2 ἀ. τῆς νίκης=originator; 16, 3, 5 τῆς βασιλείας ἀ.=founder; Jos., Ant. 7, 207.Oft. of God: Pla., Tim. 21E al.; Isocr. 4, 61 τῶν ἀγαθῶν; Diod. S. 5, 64, 5; Dit., Or. 90, 47, Syll.3 711L, 13 Apollo ἀ. τ. εὐσεβείας) ἀ. τῆς ἀφθαρσίας 2 Cl 20:5; ἀ. τῆς σωτηρίας Hb 2:10; τῆς πίστεως ἀ. 12:2. M-M.*


William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 112.

 

[Presby02]

Examine the passage it is the fruit of the Spirit for believers not for unbelievers who do not have the Spirit and are not led by the Spirit

Galatians 5:13–26 (KJV 1900) — 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

unbelievers do not live in the Spirit or walk in the Spirit

That has nothing to do with your made up categories of faith.

 

[TibiasDad]

The ability to trust God, however, is not inherent in man.

And yet you have not demonstrated why that cannot be true. If I can trust my wife, or my friends, why can’t I trust God?

What is the Holy Spirits purpose "in the process"?

The Spirit convicts and convinces us of our sin and the reality of our broken relationship with God and reveals the hope provided us in Christ. He then, upon believing, fills us, imparting life and life through regeneration and his indwelling us.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

So you shouldn't ignore questions? LOL

The answer to your question is no. The reason you ask? Logically then somethings are left to chance. No such thing with an omniscient being.

Then God is not Almighty! An Almighty God would have no lack of capacity to accomplish his purposes regardless of our capacity to choose freely.

I’ve often used an illustration that I could choose to shoot a gun at someone with intent to kill, but if God didn’t want them to die, he could use any number of ways to prevent it from happening. Once the bullet is fired (ie I’ve chosen to act freely), God’s power and will can accomplish his will with that bullet.

Doug

 

[Presby02]

And yet you have not demonstrated why that cannot be true. If I can trust my wife, or my friends, why can’t I trust God?


The Spirit convicts and convinces us of our sin and the reality of our broken relationship with God and reveals the hope provided us in Christ. He then, upon believing, fills us, imparting life and life through regeneration and his indwelling us.


Doug

How about "no one can come to me unless"

Agreed, it is God who causes our obedience.

 

[Presby02]

Then God is not Almighty! An Almighty God would have no lack of capacity to accomplish his purposes regardless of our capacity to choose freely.

I’ve often used an illustration that I could choose to shoot a gun at someone with intent to kill, but if God didn’t want them to die, he could use any number of ways to prevent it from happening. Once the bullet is fired (ie I’ve chosen to act freely), God’s power and will can accomplish his will with that bullet.

Doug

Because does not operate in a way you feel is not Almighty does not mean He is not Almighty.

Would you say the purpose of the is to save all man kind but only believers will be saved?

Right, so God DETERMINED that person would die a different way at a different time. He upholds and sustains all things. You may choose to freely rob a bank. God does not have to allow you to carry it out. He could turn you into pixie dust on the way there.

 

[TomL]

That has nothing to do with your made up categories of faith.

It has everything to do with it

Context matters

Examine the passage it is the fruit of the Spirit for believers not for unbelievers who do not have the Spirit and are not led by the Spirit

Galatians 5:13–26 (KJV 1900) — 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

unbelievers do not live in the Spirit or walk in the Spirit

 

[Presby02]

It has everything to do with it

Context matters

Examine the passage it is the fruit of the Spirit for believers not for unbelievers who do not have the Spirit and are not led by the Spirit

Galatians 5:13–26 (KJV 1900) — 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

unbelievers do not live in the Spirit or walk in the Spirit

Has nothing to do with your made up categories of faith. I can repeat myself to. Watch.

It has nothing to do with your made up categories of faith.

One more time?

 

[TomL]

Has nothing to do with your made up categories of faith. I can repeat myself to. Watch.

It has nothing to do with your made up categories of faith.

One more time?

But you cannot address the context

Hello

You cannot show unbelievers are given the Spirit

Context matters

Examine the passage it is the fruit of the Spirit for believers not for unbelievers who do not have the Spirit and are not led by the Spirit


The passage concerns brethren, believers


Galatians 5:13–26 (KJV 1900) — 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

unbelievers do not live in the Spirit or walk in the Spirit

 

[Presby02]

But you cannot address the context

Hello

You cannot show unbelievers are given the Spirit

Sure I can. See 1 Corinthians 2.

 

[TomL]

Sure I can. See 1 Corinthians 2.

Nothing there about unbelievers receiving the Spirit

and scripture denies any such possibility

John 14:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.