How did you understand the things of God without the Spirit? Something the text specifically says only the Spirit can understand?
An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
How did you understand the things of God without the Spirit? Something the text specifically says only the Spirit can understand?
No actually it does not and the verse does not state unbelievers receive the Spirit
which scripture denies
John 14:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
I didn't say it said recieve. It does sat, however, nothing understands the things of God but the Spirit. So how did you come to understand the things of God without the Spirit?
The free-willians conjured up:
- @civic's Christ failure atonement (proof post #3,585).
- @TomL's fraudulent faith definition (proof post #3,950).
- @TibiasDad's weak will of God (proof post #4,502).
- @Kampioen's renaming free-will to secondary cause (proof post #4,015).
- @synergy's refusal to apologize for his malrepresentation of @Red Baker's writing (proof post #4,049).
Each of them have conveyed the same concepts as the other.
For them, civic's Christ failure atonement proves TomL's fraudulent faith definition.
For them, TomL's fraudulent faith definition proves civic's Christ failure atonement.
They express broken, circular reasoning.
For them, TibiasDad's weak will of God is the conglomeration of civic's Christ failure atonement combined with TomL's fraudulent faith definition.
Kampioen and TibiasDad fail to respond to posts that show the Word of God illumining their error.
civic outright attacks instead of addressing the Word of God illumining his error.
TomL responds about his posts being ignored, when, in fact, his posts are addressed in detail.
synergy dismisses himself.
They exalt man, and they demote the Word of God.
Do they understand the following?
The pride of man will be humbled
And the loftiness of men will be abased;
And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day,
(Isaiah 2:17)
Stop regarding man, whose breath of life is in his nostrils;
For why should he be esteemed?
(Isaiah 2:22)
As you know, free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS, THE NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES!!!
civic
Well-known member
the accuser of the brethren strikes again making false accusations against the children of Gods family.
your fatalism is your demise, the pride of setting yourself above everyone else - it's the exact way of the pharisees Jesus condemned.
the Lord hates six things:
- Haughty eyes: Pride is the original sin, and God hates pride.
- A lying tongue: All words have consequences, and God will judge them.
- Hands that shed innocent blood: Taking the life of someone who is innocent is a sin.
- A heart that devises wicked schemes: Wicked schemes are detestable to the Lord.
- Feet that are quick to rush into evil: A person who rushes into evil is detestable to the Lord.
You failed to show anything false, and you cannot prove anything by empty run on rhetoric
Look at you accusing me of a lying tongue and more per your quoting of Proverbs 6:16-19 instead of you addressing your error detailed in the referenced post #3,585 of which you replied.
In fact, the below content of post #3,585 shows your attacks against me going back more than 1,000 posts ago.
@TibiasDad is spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, and you are spot on for Free-willian Philosophy, also, just as illumined in the following.
I'm sticking with where we last left off, civic. Oh, your question was addressed below, before you asked.
“The one practicing the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (John 3:21)
You and @TomL preach that "apart from Christ, I chose Christ", yet the Christ of us Christians declares "apart from me you can do nothing" (John 15:5) and "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) and “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation), so you teach falsehood (2 Peter 2:1; 2 Peter 2:9-10).
CHRIST' FRAUDULENT PURCHASE OF PEOPLE UNTO ETERNAL LIFE is your teaching because you believe false teachers are purchased/bought by Christ yet the false teachers are snatched out of His Hand. YOUR FALSE TEACHING IS CHRIST'S FAILURE ATONEMENT. The evidence is presented below.
The noun "Master" is the object for the verb "bought"; therefore, the unsupported word "who" adulterates 2 Peter 2:1. Your image of the grammatical construction illegally adds the word "who".
I reject your commands based on your teaching being false.
Yes it’s all Greek to himhis Greek is the equivalent of my Aramaic- non existent
Says the person named civic, but let's see the other things that you say.
CONFUSION ATONEMENT BY THE CHRIST is your preaching based upon your abuse of Holy Scripture as demonstrated in the following. You believe Christ bought eternal life for the false prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2:1 and/or false teachers who lie and deceive about Christ; therefore, you preach that Christ delivers believer and unbeliever which is commonly called universal atonement but it is really confusion atonement.
In Truth (John 14:6), "God is not a God of confusion but of peace" (1 Corinthians 14:33). God loves justice (Isaiah 61:8); moreover, "The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36).
Because of my God who seized me as part of His Holy Nation, I believe our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless work, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works (see Titus 2:13-14).
Your heart's universal atonement destroys God's justice, so you preach confusion atonement.
Yes, let's look at some more quotes from you.
That is a telling passage, civic, thank you for mentioning it!
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me"
(John 8:39-45)
When a person's heart practices the lawlessness of making false statements about God and man, then such a person magnifies his or her father the devil.
See the post to which you replied, and you will see the evidence of @TomL's deception.
Let us see your deceiving prophecy leads to Christ's failure atonement, and the method of your lie about me when you called me a man wearing woman's clothing theologian.
Now, back to where you and I left off recently.
You indicate no repentance. You indicate no apology for bearing false witness. You intensify you application of "gobblygook" against the very Word of God!
You linguistic and research skills are impaired, and the proof is that the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) includes not the word "gobblygook" nor a definition for the word as per this link to the actual OED, https://www.oed.com/search/dictionary/?scope=Entries&q=gobblygook , instead of your faulty link to Google that opens to a "Learn about Dictionary boxes on Google" without any mention of the word "gobblygook" on the page!
Now, back to where we left off.
Behold the free-willian, civic, who insults and denies the Word of God that one must be born of God in order to even by able to perceive God (John 3:3) and believe in God (John 3:3-21), that free-willian civic labels this lovingly wonderful Word of God "gobbly" "gook" - "turkey" "excrement".
You called all the precious Word of God in post #3,250 your translated phrase "turkey dung".
Now, civic, let's return to where we left off.
You insulted me by calling me an abomination to God because it is written "neither shall a man put on women’s clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to Yahweh your God" (Deuteronomy 22:5), so you wickedly bear false witness against me. But you do not stop there, the depth of your depravity attributes your lie of me being a cross dresser as being caused by God. Your behavior is non-christian.
As I explained to you, I do not plan to stop talking about these verses that you quoted which you adulterate that demonstrate your thoughts that lead to Christ's failure atonement according to your traditions of men a.k.a. the Book of Free-willians. The verses to discuss are shown below.
God causes me to visit each and every verse that you quoted.
As a reminder for you, for the definition of the word "world", you hold a death grip on "the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ".
According to your Free-willian Philosophy, the following represents fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers:
- if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
- if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
- The conclusion: Christ succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ failed in saving Nancy of the world.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of John | |
| The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who fails to take away the sin of the world! (civic 1:29) | The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Hebrews | |
| But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he ineffectively suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might ineffectually taste death for everyone like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God. (civic 2:9) | But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, even people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God but they enjoy salvation but they suffer punishment but they enjoy salvation-punishment (civic 2:11) | For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Book of Free-willians | The Book of Titus | |
| But when the kindness and the love of mankind which includes God-displeasing sin-immersed self-willed under the wrath of God people like Nancy of God our Savior appeared (civic 3:4) | But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared (Titus 3:4) |
Lord Jesus says "men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light" (John 3:19-20) in the immediately same conversation as John 3:16!
Your adulteration of the Holy Word of God is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The word of civic | The Word of God | |
| For God so loved the world like Judas Iscariot and people like Tom and people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever loving the darkness hating the Light by self-will choosing to believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (civic 3:16) | For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of Timothy | |
| Who will have all men to be saved, but God's will fails miserably with saving people like Nancy of the world who are eternally under the wrath of God, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 civic 2:4) | Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) |
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book of Peter | |
| The Lord breaks his promise because he is patient with you people like Nancy of the world who will never be a part of the Body of Christ, not wishing that any should perish but people like Nancy perish without ever coming to repentance. (2 civic 3:9) | The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) |
Notice the phrase "the whole world" occurs twice in the same book with the same author, the First Book of John inspired by the glorious Holy Spirit.
You brought up 1 John 2:2 which shall be examined in a moment, and the other location is "We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19).
The Apostle John further wrote "you have overcome the evil one" (1 John 2:13), and John uses the "you" to refer to Christians exclusively; therefore, no Christian lies in the evil one, so current Christians are excluded from "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The First Book of Free-willians | The First Book of John | |
| He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing, Christ's atoning sacrifice fails for ones such as people like Nancy. (1 civic 2:2) | He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2) |
Crucially, you quoted where the Apostle declares THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONTROLS US! BEAUTIFUL CHRIST!!! But you free-willians absolve yourselves from being controlled by Christ.
Your adulteration of the Holy Scripture is evident in your quotations augmented with your heart's thoughts in your posts:
| The Second Book of Free-willians | The Second Book to the Corinthians | |
| For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died and now live in Christ, including people like Nancy of the whole world who lie in the power of the evil one, even until they stop breathing (2 civic 5:14) | For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died (2 Corinthians 5:14) |
You quoted your Calvinist god Loraine Boettner, and his quote reinforces that your Free-willian Philosophy abounds in confusion.
We Christians have a God of order, for it is written "God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the holy ones" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
Your blanket statements after you quote your god Boettner errantly coupled with your use of scripture are traditions of men.
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE LORD JESUS CONTROLLING MY DESTINY!!!
civic
Well-known member
more false testimony- you are like the pharisees and have the same father as they did .
John 8:39-44.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I need to back up and reframe my thoughts, for I have realized that I have misread your reply to me and responded poorly to your thoughts. Mea culpa!
The question I need to ask now is, if God is capable of accomplishing his will without meticulously predetermining, why did he not do that? Why did God choose to predetermine all things if it wasn’t necessary?
Doug
No worries Doug. It's all good.
Why did He not do that? Your question question begs your position.
Who said it was not necessary?
You are running from the passage
Tell us where do you see unbelievers
Examine the passage it is the fruit of the Spirit for believers not for unbelievers who do not have the Spirit and are not led by the Spirit
Galatians 5:13–26 (KJV 1900) — 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
unbelievers do not live in the Spirit or walk in the Spirit
Look at self-willed you reviling King Jesus of the Kingdom of God by you calling Him the devil.
Your disrespect and dishonor for the Word of God is evident.
You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).
You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).
You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).
You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).
You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:5-8), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).
You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).
You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).
You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).
You wrote "Your heart makes false statements about God and man", but my heart is the loving Word of God "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34), so your heart calls the Word of God your evil false thing instead of the good Truth (John 14:6).
Your heart makes false statements about God and man. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN GOD!!!
civic
Well-known member
no I said you have the same father as the pharisees in John 8:39-44.
you twist my words just like you do with the Scriptures.
civic
Well-known member
yes indeed
time to take a time out. Thread will be locked for 3 days as per warning.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Thank you for your graciousness!
I’m not sure I follow what you mean here…
If he didn’t have to preordain all things but did, it wasn’t necessary that he did. He could have accomplished it without predestination. So why did he predestination if it wasn’t necessary?
Doug
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Please feel free to demonstrate specific examples of this circular reasoning! Worry not, I’m not holding my breath.
Doug
This thread Is now open, please follow our guidelines.
Let's start with the interdependency established by free-willian @civic here, as recorded in this thread:
In essence, civic conveyed that these three interdependent statements must together be concurrently true for a single one of the statements to be true:
#1) @civic preaches that the Grace of the Grand Creator God is resistable by man the creature AND
#2) @civic preaches that Christ's payment in full for crime against God (atonement) applies to every person everywhere over the entire planet AND
#3) @civic preaches that the clay chooses the Potter while at the same time the Potter chooses not the clay.
Now, TibiasDad, see how civic has #2 dependent on #3 while at the same time #3 is dependent upon #2, so circular reasoning occurs right there, and the detail following shows specifically how the circular reasoning applies to Free-willian Philosophy.
Free-willians believe that Christ's atonement finishes based upon one choosing to believe in God requiring God to save that one from the wrath of God, yet the one not choosing to believe in God is under the wrath of God; therefore, Christ's finished atonement is contingent upon man's choice. This demonstrates #2 dependent on #3.
On the other hand, free-willians believe that the one not choosing to believe in God is under the wrath of God, yet the one choosing to believe in God requiring God to save that one from the wrath of God finishes Christ's atonement; therefore, Christ's finished atonement is contingent upon man's choice. This demonstrates #3 dependent on #2.
The Free-Willian Philosophy ends with:
1) The Christ establishes "It is finished!" (John 19:30) while on the cross signifying Christ's completed atonement, yet free-willians believe "It is not finished until you choose to believe in me" (the Book of Free-willians 19:30).
2) Christ's finished atonement crashes and burns for the one not choosing to believe in God; therefore, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.
3) Free-willians nullify the following Word of God to some degree in their hearts in order to achieve their goals:
- "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:5).
- "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 6:29).
- "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3).
- “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:21).
- “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:5-8).
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16).
- "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19).
- "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes" (Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25).
- "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 13:34).
Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).
In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE SOVEREIGN GOD!!!
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I am only interested in you demonstrating my arguments as circular, not what you think about @civic’s! (His arguments are not circular either, but I’ll let him defend his own arguments; he doesn’t need my help!)
Doug
