An Article on free will

[Kermos]

As opposed to your own worship of self and your own opinion over that of scripture, or anything else contrary to your view

let us note you addressed none of this

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

you accomplish nothing by repeating your opinions once again as scripture refutes your claims
even when contrary to context , correlating scripture

instead you repeat the same tired comments you have been repeating over and over mixed in with ad hominem

Additionally you do not deal with the fact we are told the gift is salvation - eternal life

Romans 6:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

btw we can that here also

John 4:10–14 (NASB 2020) — 10 Jesus replied to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who is saying to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She said to Him, “Sir, You have no bucket and the well is deep; where then do You get this living water? 12 You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well and drank of it himself, and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”

nor do you deal with verse 9

Ephesians 2:9 (NASB 2020) — 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

which makes no sense if faith is the gift

No one would imagine or ever attempt to refute a claim that faith is the result of works







you do not deal with the

You are so frayed and frazzled, fractured and fragmented in your self-willed following of your god Calvin and your god Alford that:

• your closing paragraph is an incomplete fractured sentence "you do not deal with the" which illuminates your fractured belief system.
• your opening paragraph's "your own worship of self" thoroughly confuses the fact that you are the one who vehemently exalts yourself as the superior to God in your ability to self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) choose to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent which in turn commands God provide you with salvation in contrast to me who openly declares my own-self's inability that I am numbered among the you in "apart from Me you can do nothing"
  (the Word of God, John 15:5) so I being in Christ means that God provides the fruit of believing in the Author and Perfecter of the faith whom the Father has sent "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing"
  (John 15:5).

No Bible "verses show faith precedes life", so your heart's treasure is frayed, frazzled, and fractured in your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Sorry you just repeat yourself without addressing exegesis

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-77419

Eph 2:8 does not support you

the gift is salvation as seen

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

and by verse 9

Ephesians 2:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For by grace (the article shews us the import of the sentence—to take up and expand the parenthetic clause χάριτί ἐστε σεσωσμένοι above: but not barely so: that clause itself was inserted on account of the matter in hand being a notable example of the fact, and this γάρ takes up also that matter in hand—the ὑπερβάλλον πλοῦτος κ.τ.λ) ye are (perf.) saved, through [your] (or [the], but the possessive article is preferable, see below: ‘the’ would make both objective. The abstract, ‘through faith,’ must be the rendering if the article be omitted) faith (the dative above expressed the objective instrumental condition of your salvation,—this διὰ the subjective medial condition: it has been effected by grace and apprehended by faith): and this (not your faith, as Chrys. οὐδὲ ἡ πίστις, φησίν, ἐξ ὑμῶν: so Thdrt., al., Corn.-a-Iap., Beza, Est., Grot., Beng., all.;—this is precluded (not by the gender of τοῦτο, but) by the manifestly parallel clauses οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν and οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, of which the latter would be irrelevant as asserted of πίστις, and the reference of ver. 9 must therefore be changed:—but, as Calv., Calov., Rück., Harl., Olsh., Mey., De W., Stier, al., ‘your salvation;’ τὸ σεσωσμένοι εἶναι, as Ellic.) not of yourselves, God’s (emphatic) is the gift (not, as E. V. ‘it is the gift of God’ (θεοῦ δῶρον),—τὸ δῶρον, viz. of your salvation: so that the expression is pregnant—q. d., ‘but it is a gift, and that gift is God’s.’ There is no occasion, as Lachm., Harl., and De W., to parenthesize these words: they form a contrast to οὐκ ἐξ ὑμ., and a quasi-parallel clause to ἵνα μή τις καυχήσ. below): not of works (for ἐξ ἔργων, see on Rom. 3:4, and Gal. 2:16), that no man should boast (on the proposition implied, see on Rom. 4:2. ἵνα, has in matter of fact its strictest telic sense. With God, results are all purposed; it need not be understood, when we predicate of Him a purpose in this manner, that it was His main or leading aim;—but it was one of those things included in His scheme, which ranked among His purposes).1

1 Henry Alford, Alford’s Greek Testament: An Exegetical and Critical Commentary (vol. 3; Grand Rapids, MI: Guardian Press, 1976), 94.

john 1:12 also extensively dealt with

and proven by scripture on is made a child of God regenerated by faith

Regeneration by definition is the impartation of life



The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

you accomplish nothing by repeating your opinions once again as scripture refutes your claims

Your god Alford deceives (at least your context) because the Apostle Paul clearly declares we are His work (Ephesians 2:10) and Paul precedes this by faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works (Ephesians 2:8-9); therefore, we Christians are the work of God which includes our faith/belief.

Your "I went through the context showing how it supports my view then i quoted Calvinists and others supporting it" (proof post #2,132) promoting the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9), and to be very specific Your heart's authority, your Lord Alford, wrote "The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God" regarding John 6:29, so your Lord Alford wickedly sins against Lord Jesus by bludgeoning the Word of God into "This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (TomL 6:29) in your Free-willian Leader Alford's heart (the man whom you quote again and again), so your free-willian tradition of men (Matthew 15:9) is clearly evident because the Authority for us Christians, my Lord Jesus Christ says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Your wishful thinking of "you did nothing to refute the context or the expert commentary" is your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) because Lord Jesus proclaimed the Truth (John 14:6) long before your "expert commentary" composers of "Alford" and/or "Calvin" were born - those men whose words you exalt - those men whom your heart idolizes above the Word of God - just look at the multitude of posts in this thread alone in which you preach the word of "Alford" and your exalted leader "Calvin", even you taking their traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) as your own by sheer force of your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) plethora of posts.

Your heart's treasure of "People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us" (the words of Calvinist TomL) adulterates John 6:29 into “This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (the word of Calvinist TomL).

Your "The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28" (TomL post quoted above) is you elevating a mere question of men of "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God" (John 6:27) into a tradition of man that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9) by your way of redefining the work of God (the Word of God, John 6:29) into a man-made thing of "NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN" (TomL 6:29) resulting in the abomination of "This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (TomL 6:29).

Every person loses who contradicts our Christian Head, the Christ who says man believing in Lord Jesus is the work of Almighty God with:

​

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent​

(the Word of God, John 6:29)​

​

so for any person to claim that man manipulates his own belief to point at Jesus - then that man is anti-truth.

Your spirit's "God births those who believe and receive the Son" (proof post #2,082) is out of accord with all these wonderful Apostolic Testimony of Ephesians 2:8-10, John 1:10-13, and John 6:29:

​

by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

​

so Paul is in accord with the Word of God saying God causes man to believe in the Son whom the Father has sent!

And Paul is in agreement with the Apostle John who says that man's belief/faith is caused by the Father as a result of God birthing man anew with:

​

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him, but as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God​

(John 1:10-13)​

​

so John says God causes man to believe in the Son whom the Father has sent!

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE TRUE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!!!

 

[TomL]

You are so frayed and frazzled, fractured and fragmented in your self-willed following of your god Calvin and your god Alford that:

• your closing paragraph is an incomplete fractured sentence "you do not deal with the" which illuminates your fractured belief system.
• your opening paragraph's "your own worship of self" thoroughly confuses the fact that you are the one who vehemently exalts yourself as the superior to God in your ability to self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) choose to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent which in turn commands God provide you with salvation in contrast to me who openly declares my own-self's inability that I am numbered among the you in "apart from Me you can do nothing"
  (the Word of God, John 15:5) so I being in Christ means that God provides the fruit of believing in the Author and Perfecter of the faith whom the Father has sent "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing"
  (John 15:5).

No Bible "verses show faith precedes life", so your heart's treasure is frayed, frazzled, and fractured in your self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).



Your god Alford deceives (at least your context) because the Apostle Paul clearly declares we are His work (Ephesians 2:10) and Paul precedes this by faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works (Ephesians 2:8-9); therefore, we Christians are the work of God which includes our faith/belief.

Your "I went through the context showing how it supports my view then i quoted Calvinists and others supporting it" (proof post #2,132) promoting the traditions of men that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9), and to be very specific Your heart's authority, your Lord Alford, wrote "The meaning is not,—that faith is wrought in us by God" regarding John 6:29, so your Lord Alford wickedly sins against Lord Jesus by bludgeoning the Word of God into "This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (TomL 6:29) in your Free-willian Leader Alford's heart (the man whom you quote again and again), so your free-willian tradition of men (Matthew 15:9) is clearly evident because the Authority for us Christians, my Lord Jesus Christ says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

Your wishful thinking of "you did nothing to refute the context or the expert commentary" is your traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) because Lord Jesus proclaimed the Truth (John 14:6) long before your "expert commentary" composers of "Alford" and/or "Calvin" were born - those men whose words you exalt - those men whom your heart idolizes above the Word of God - just look at the multitude of posts in this thread alone in which you preach the word of "Alford" and your exalted leader "Calvin", even you taking their traditions of men (Matthew 15:9) as your own by sheer force of your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) plethora of posts.

Your heart's treasure of "People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us" (the words of Calvinist TomL) adulterates John 6:29 into “This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (the word of Calvinist TomL).

Your "The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28" (TomL post quoted above) is you elevating a mere question of men of "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God" (John 6:27) into a tradition of man that leads to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9) by your way of redefining the work of God (the Word of God, John 6:29) into a man-made thing of "NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN" (TomL 6:29) resulting in the abomination of "This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (TomL 6:29).

Every person loses who contradicts our Christian Head, the Christ who says man believing in Lord Jesus is the work of Almighty God with:

​

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent​

(the Word of God, John 6:29)​

​

so for any person to claim that man manipulates his own belief to point at Jesus - then that man is anti-truth.

Your spirit's "God births those who believe and receive the Son" (proof post #2,082) is out of accord with all these wonderful Apostolic Testimony of Ephesians 2:8-10, John 1:10-13, and John 6:29:

​

by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not as a result of works, so that no one may boast for we are His work​

(Ephesians 2:8-10)​

​

so Paul is in accord with the Word of God saying God causes man to believe in the Son whom the Father has sent!

And Paul is in agreement with the Apostle John who says that man's belief/faith is caused by the Father as a result of God birthing man anew with:

​

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him, but as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God​

(John 1:10-13)​

​

so John says God causes man to believe in the Son whom the Father has sent!

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE ONE TRUE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!!!

Your ad hominem and changing of the subject shows you have no answer to these

The following verses show faith precedes life

John 5:24 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

John 20:31 (KJV)
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 5:40 (KJV)
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Acts 11:18 (KJV)
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

John 6:57 (KJV)
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Regeneration makes one a child of God. Born of God -

One is made a child of God through faith

John 1:12 (KJV)
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Galatians 3:26 (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

John 12:36 (KJV)
36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection.



We are raised spiritually through faith

Colossians 2:12 (KJV)
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

One is born again(regenerated) through faith in gospel

James 1:18 (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV)
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.


Regeneration is the mechanism of salvation

Titus 3:5 (KJV)
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

it is through faith we are saved

EPH 2:8 (KJV)
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

.

Regeneration is preceded by remission of sin

Colossians 2:13 (KJV)
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

which requires both faith and repentance

Acts 10:43 (KJV)
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Luke 24:47 (KJV)
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Acts 5:31 (KJV)
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

you accomplish nothing by repeating your opinions once again as scripture refutes your claims
even when contrary to context , correlating scripture

instead you repeat the same tired comments you have been repeating over and over mixed in with ad hominem

Additionally you do not deal with the fact we are told the gift is salvation - eternal life

Romans 6:23 (NASB 2020) — 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

btw we can that here also

John 4:10–14 (NASB 2020) — 10 Jesus replied to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who is saying to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” 11 She said to Him, “Sir, You have no bucket and the well is deep; where then do You get this living water? 12 You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well and drank of it himself, and his sons and his cattle?” 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again; 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never be thirsty; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up to eternal life.”

nor do you deal with verse 9

Ephesians 2:9 (NASB 2020) — 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

which makes no sense if faith is the gift

No one would imagine or ever attempt to refute a claim that faith is the result of works

Your non answer and ad hominem just exposes you as being unable to deal with scripture

 

[Kermos]

Stop the worship of yourself which causes you to disregard context, the whole council of God, lexicons and Greek expert commentary and to distort what was posted

The context itself tells you what the meaning is

John 3:3–5 (NASB 2020) — 3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Notice the word Jesus uses in his reply

Experience - enter the kingdom of God is the meaning established by context

The kingdom does not come with observation

Luke 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

hello the kingdom is not something you see with your eyes according to Jesus himself

In your self aggrandizement, you ignore the very words of Christ

Noted lexicons support such understanding

5. see someth.=experience someth. (Ps 26:13); good days 1 Pt 3:10 (Ps 33:13; τ. βασιλείαν J 3:3 BAGD industry standard lexicon

and cites John 3:3 as carrying such a meaning

5. LN 90.79 experience an event or state, the figurative extension of first entry (Jn 3:36

James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

citing a similar passage

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

4. to experience: τ. θάνατον, Lk 2:26, He 11:5; ζωήν, Jo 3:36; τ. διαφθοράν, Ac 2:27. A manual Greek lexicon of the New testament

and greek commentary

He cannot see the kingdom of God (οὐ δυναται ἰδειν την βασιλειαν του θεου [ou dunatai idein tēn basileian tou theou]). To participate in it as in Luke 9:27. For this use of ἰδειν [idein] (second aorist active infinitive of ὁραω [horaō]) see John 8:51; Rev. 18:7.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 3:3.

See” (ἰδεῖν aor. act. inf. of ὁράω; a complementary inf. after δύναται) here means “ ‘to experience, encounter, participate in,’ as, e.g., in ‘see death’ (8:51), ‘see life’ (3:36)” (Brown 130

Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 72.

it was not just A.t Robertson but noted lexicons and noted Greek expositors

Then there is the truncated version of Strongs you present as though it were the whole of the matter when it is not

3708. ὁράω horao, hor-ah´-o; properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear: — behold, perceive, see, take heed.

but you disingenuously presented as though it was

So we have context, scripture from parallel use, scripture contradicting the idea of observation, lexical data and Greek commentary all supporting the idea of experiencing entering into

As opposed to your own self affirming self deifying opinion

You have no evidence at all to offer, nothing new, and nothing which rebuts what I have posted above

TomL, you wrote "Stop the worship of yourself which causes you to disregard context" in the same post that you exalt your self-willed context above Lord and God Jesus Christ's inclusive context of His first reply of see and His second reply of enter in your folly of "Experience - enter the kingdom of God is the meaning established by context" regarding John 3:3-8 (you slash John 3:6 out to intentionally obliterate context which excludes flesh from any righteousness), so, in effect, your heart nullifies King Jesus of the Kingdom of God's sayings of:

​

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​

(John 3:3-8)​

​

Your heart's treasure as per your post results in:

​

3 Jesus lied and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God but he can see the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is spirit, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who free-will chooses to believe in the Son whom the Father has sent born of the Spirit."​

(TomL 3:3-8)​

​

Your context is not Lord Jesus Christ's context.

TomL's Wrong Side		Christ's Right Side
TomL's context of man's ability in the flesh to see and perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God is dead false.		Lord Jesus Christ's context of man's inability in the flesh to see and perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God is Life Truth (John 14:6).
Flesh TomL's context is exclusively enter the Kingdom of God thus TomL excludes both see and perceive from the Word of God in order for free-willians like TomL to see and perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God.		Lord Jesus Christ's context is inclusively see, perceive, and enter the Kingdom of God thus Christ includes both see and perceive as the Word of God resulting in free-willians like TomL having folly context about King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God.

As per the Word of God recorded in John 3:3-8, your context is invalid because you cannot perceive King Jesus Christ of the Kingdom of God.

Same old nonsense

The context itself tells you what the meaning is

John 3:3–5 (NASB 2020) — 3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Experience - enter the kingdom of God is the meaning established by context

The kingdom does not come with observation

Luke 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

as noted lexicon support such understanding

5. see someth.=experience someth. (Ps 26:13); good days 1 Pt 3:10 (Ps 33:13; τ. βασιλείαν J 3:3 BAGD industry standard lexicon

and cites John 3:3 as carrying such a meaning

5. LN 90.79 experience an event or state, the figurative extension of first entry (Jn 3:36

James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

citing a similar passage

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

4. to experience: τ. θάνατον, Lk 2:26, He 11:5; ζωήν, Jo 3:36; τ. διαφθοράν, Ac 2:27. A manual Greek lexicon of the New testament

and greek commentary

He cannot see the kingdom of God (οὐ δυναται ἰδειν την βασιλειαν του θεου [ou dunatai idein tēn basileian tou theou]). To participate in it as in Luke 9:27. For this use of ἰδειν [idein] (second aorist active infinitive of ὁραω [horaō]) see John 8:51; Rev. 18:7.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 3:3.

See” (ἰδεῖν aor. act. inf. of ὁράω; a complementary inf. after δύναται) here means “ ‘to experience, encounter, participate in,’ as, e.g., in ‘see death’ (8:51), ‘see life’ (3:36)” (Brown 130

Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 72.

So we have context, scripture from parallel use, scripture contradicting the idea of observation, lexical data and Greek commentary all supporting the idea of experiencing entering into




Sorry that is not the only definition

3708. ὁράω horao, hor-ah´-o; properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear: — behold, perceive, see, take heed.
Strongs


You have no evidence at all to offer, nothing new, and nothing which rebuts what I have posted above

Why you persist in this is hard to see.

Your personal ad hominem is deleted

Your gods fail you, TomL, for your god Robertson (of whom you manipulate context) has you preaching "He cannot see the kingdom of God. To participate in it as in Luke 9:27", so you self-willed redefine the word see (ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) into the word participate based on your self-willed purpose to enable yourself to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God in direct disobedience to the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Now, you call "nonsense" this blessed Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3), and no Christian calls the Word of God "nonsense".

"Your personal ad hominem" attacks against the Word of God are preposterous.

Utter foolishness. Words must be defined before scripture can be properly interpreted. You simple define words to suit your theology much as cults do

You self-willed redefine the word see (ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) into the word experience based on your purpose to enable yourself to perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God in direct disobedience to the Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

You, TomL, cannot experience King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without being born of God.

You, TomL, cannot perceive King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without being born of God.

You, TomL, cannot see King Jesus of the Kingdom of God without being born of God.

Experience is included in the Lord’s words, but not at the exclusion of perceive.

FIRST comes born of God (John 3:3-8).

SECOND comes believing (John 3:9-15).

The order is first comes John 3:3-8 and second comes John 3:9-15.

example

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Does it mean to observe or to experience. Notice have everlasting life is contrary to not seeing life

Lord Jesus was not simply talking about "observe", in Truth (John 14:6), King Jesus is talking about "perceive" in "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

As to the believes in John the Baptists "He who believes in the Son has eternal life" (John 3:36), this believes is controlled by the Word of God who says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent
(John 6:29).

As to the does not obey in John the Baptists "he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36), this does not obey applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience but that one can perceive the kingdom of God" (TomL 3:3) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

And, again, as to the does not obey in John the Baptists "he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36), this does not obey applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says "This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (TomL 6:29) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

And, more again, as to the does not obey in John the Baptists "he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36), this does not obey applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says "I judge what is right in order to believe in Jesus on my own initiative" (the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9)) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God "why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right" (Luke 12:57).

And, even more again, as to the does not obey in John the Baptists "he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36), this does not obey applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says "I come Jesus as wrought in my own self-will" (unrighteous man (2 Peter 2:9-10)) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

And, even more again, as to the does not obey in John the Baptists "he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36), this does not obey applies to every Free-willian Philosopher who says "I chose Jesus, so He must give salvation to me" (the traditions of man (Matthew 15:9)) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

There you go doing exactly what i stated defining words in a matter you see fit rather than taking pains to define them

You do not even examine context for further clues

John 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Two verse later we see the idea is to enter





You got it backwards

regeneration, the impartation of life follows after faith not before

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Believe then have life

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Believe then have life

John 5:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Come to Christ in faith to have life

John 6:53 (KJV 1900) — 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Unless you believe and come to Christ you can have no life

You reverse the scriptural order

Lord Jesus starts narrowly with the nonborn of God person being unable to see King Jesus of the Kingdom of God with "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

Nicodemus asked "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he" (John 3:4) in response to the Lord’s proclamation. Notice that Nicodemus asked about the work of man which he asserted as entering a second time into his mother’s womb and be born.

The Word of God expands from the narrowly focused see (John 3:3) scope into the broader enter (John 3:5) scope with the blessed saying "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8). Notice that Jesus incorporated enter (John 3:5) after Nicodemus used enter (John 3:4); therefore, Jesus uses see (John 3:3) to illuminate the nonborn of God person's inability to see King Jesus of the Kingdom of God (John 3:3), and Jesus uses enter (John 3:5) to illuminate the nonborn of God person's absence of internal strength to enter King Jesus Christ's Kingdom of God.

See, Jesus says "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6); therefore, that which is born of the flesh is not born of the Spirit, so the flesh nonborn of God person is unable to see King Jesus of the Kingdom of God because the nonborn of God person is not born again/born of God.

Your contrived "context" of "Two verse later we see the idea is to enter" is your heart adulterating John 3:3 into "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (TomL 3:3) which is the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

following your method

you preach the words of your gods named Strongs as your heart's treasure (whether your heart breaks their context or not)

but here is Strongs expanded

1492 οἶδα [eido, oida /i·do/] v. A root word; TDNT 5:116; TDNTA 673; GK 3857; 666 occurrences; AV translates as “know” 282 times, “cannot tell + 3756” eight times, “know how” seven times, “wist” six times, translated miscellaneously 19 times, “see” 314 times, “behold” 16 times, “look” five times, “perceive” five times, “vr see” three times, and “vr know” once. 1 to see. 1A to perceive with the eyes. 1B to perceive by any of the senses. 1C to perceive, notice, discern, discover. 1D to see. 1D1 i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything. 1D2 to pay attention, observe. 1D3 to see about something. 1D31 i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it. 1D4 to inspect, examine. 1D5 to look at, behold. 1E to experience any state or condition. 1F to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit. 2 to know. 2A to know of anything. 2B to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive. 2B1 of any fact. 2B2 the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning. 2B3 to know how, to be skilled in. 2C to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12). Additional Information: For synonyms see entries 1097, ginosko; 1987, epistamai; and 4920, suniemi.See entry 5825 for comparison of synonyms.

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

You are completely arbitrary in your approach. It is fine for you to employ a narrow lexical gloss but to use any other lexicon is worshiping them as God's

That is an extremely disingenuous methodology

Strong's is a numbering system to reference particular Greek words, so your "you preach the words of your gods named Strongs" is folly.

The concept of "see" and "perceive" is the definition of the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to).

Sorry context and the weight of all the lexical data refutes your claim

Sorry but you beg the question assuming your limited strongs meaning is correct and all other Lexicons wrong

even then - this is strongs from biblehub

ἰδεῖν (idein)
Verb - Aorist Infinitive Active
Strong's Greek 3708: Properly, to stare at, i.e. to discern clearly; by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear.

You selectively apply the data. Assuming what you desire and ignoring everything contrary to it

And in ignorance you fail to realize it is context which determines the meaning and context does not support you

John 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

You persist in your folly outlined here:

1. you preach the words of your gods named "Arndt, Bauer, Danker, Gingrich, Brannan, Jamieson, Fausset, Brown, Robertson", and "Calvin" as your heart's treasure (whether your heart breaks their context or not).
2. your heart's "As seen the context of John 3:3 is speaking of experiencing not believing as you falsely claimed" is you adulterating the Word of God from the wonderful "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (the Word of God, John 3:3) into your abomination as based on the word of your Lord Arndt "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot experience the kingdom of God" (the word of TomL per his A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, William Arndt et al., page 221).
3. your heart's "As seen the context of John 3:3 is speaking of experiencing not believing as you falsely claimed" is you breaking the context of the consecutive sequence of "see/perceive/believe" as evidenced in the specific mention of John 3:3-8 preceding John 3:9-15 in that which God caused me to write of "In John 3:3-8, the Word of God declares that God must first cause a person to be born of God in order for a person to see/perceive/believe King Jesus of the Kingdom of God, and the Word of God immediately proceeds in John 3:9-15 to declare the resultant effect for the born of God person which is to believe in Christ"; moreover, Lord Jesus had me continue "The implication of this for John 3:16 is that God causes the born of God person to believe in Christ" illuminating that born again and believe are distinct yet related.
4. The Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) accurately translates to see/perceive just as God had me write regarding "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3); in contrast, your prophecy of "It is clear an honest handling of this word shows it pertains to experience" for the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) is absent from the definition of the Greek word ἰδεῖν concept, so your prophecy (1 John 4:1) excluding "perceive" in John 3:3 is your self-willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) own interpretation a.k.a. false prophecy.

In closing point #4, above, we see/perceive that your closing paragraph "Only by mistranslating and changing the meaning of words can you hold to your doctrine" is false that you wrote against the writing that God caused me to compose.

In fact, your mistranslation of "experience" for the Greek word ἰδεῖν (Strong's 3708 - ὁράω (horaó) - to see, perceive, attend to) means that your "Only by mistranslating and changing the meaning of words can you hold to your doctrine" applies to you.

The hearts of Free-willian Philosophers bludgeon the Word of God recorded in John 3:16 by wickedly isolating this Word of God from his larger contiguous discourse in John 3:3-21 which not only initiates with God's control over the salvation of man but it also culminates with God's control over the salvation and sanctification of man with "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE AUTHOR AND PERFECTER OF THE ONE BELIEF THAT SAVES!!!

 

[Rockson]

Philosopher who says "This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (TomL 6:29) in abominable contradiction to the clear, precise and pure Word of God "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Sorry but when someone wants to scoot around the truth they'll do just what you're doing here. Providing the full passage of Jn 6 to an actual English technician they would laugh at how you're trying to force and bend Jesus statement into the mode of your way of thinking. They'd know what was said in the two verses prior must control and dictate the flow of the conversation. When Jesus said vs 27 that they were not to work for food that perishes BUT FOR would mean they still have to work but it's a word of a different kind. If he didn't mean THEY didn't have to HE WOULD NOT have said But for! So no disrespect but readers beware!

 

[Johann]

Sorry but when someone wants to scoot around the truth they'll do just what you're doing here. Providing the full passage of Jn 6 to an actual English technician they would laugh at how you're trying to force and bend Jesus statement into the mode of your way of thinking. They'd know what was said in the two verses prior must control and dictate the flow of the conversation. When Jesus said vs 27 that they were not to work for food that perishes BUT FOR would mean they still have to work but it's a word of a different kind. If he didn't mean THEY didn't have to HE WOULD NOT have said But for! So no disrespect but readers beware!

Reader-be beware of what?! @Kermos?


Context of John 6
The Setting
John 6 is a significant chapter that covers several key events and teachings in the ministry of Jesus. It begins with the miracle of the feeding of the 5,000 (John 6:1-15), demonstrating Jesus' power and compassion. Following this, Jesus walks on water (John 6:16-21), further revealing His divine authority.

The Dialogue
After these miracles, the crowd seeks Jesus out again, and they find Him in Capernaum. They are curious about His actions and the signs He performs. This leads to an important dialogue between Jesus and the crowd regarding spiritual sustenance and the nature of true belief.

Immediate Context of John 6:29
The Crowd's Question
In John 6:25-28, the crowd asks Jesus:

John 6:25: "Rabbi, when did you come here?"
John 6:26: Jesus answers, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves."
John 6:27: He continues, "Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
John 6:28: The crowd then asks, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
Jesus' Response
Jesus responds in John 6:29: "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Analysis of John 6:29
Key Themes
Belief as God's Work:

Jesus emphasizes that the fundamental "work" God desires is not a set of rituals or actions, but belief in Jesus Himself. This belief is not merely intellectual assent but involves trust and reliance on Jesus as the sent one from God.
Divine Initiative:

The phrase "work of God" underscores that even faith itself is a result of God's initiative. It is God who enables and brings about belief in Jesus.
The Sent One:

Jesus refers to Himself as the one "whom He has sent." This highlights Jesus' divine mission and origin, emphasizing His unique role in God's redemptive plan.
Theological Implications
Grace and Faith:

This verse aligns with the broader New Testament teaching that salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). It is not human effort that achieves salvation, but a divinely enabled faith in Jesus.
Relationship Over Ritual:

Jesus redirects the crowd from seeking miraculous signs and physical bread to seeking a relationship with Him, the true bread of life (John 6:35).
Human Responsibility and Divine Sovereignty:

While the call to believe is a command, it also reflects God's sovereign work in drawing people to Jesus (John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him").
Broader Biblical Context
Johannine Themes:

The Gospel of John frequently emphasizes belief in Jesus as the pathway to eternal life (John 3:16, John 20:31). This belief is central to the message of John's Gospel.
Fulfillment of Prophecy:

Believing in Jesus as the sent one from God ties back to Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah (e.g., Isaiah 53, Deuteronomy 18:15).
Practical Application
Faith Focus:

For contemporary believers, this passage calls for a focus on faith in Jesus as the central act of spiritual life, above and beyond religious activities.
Evangelism:

In sharing the Gospel, the emphasis should be on inviting others to trust in Jesus, understanding that faith itself is a response to God's initiating work.
Dependence on God:

Believers are reminded that their faith is sustained by God's power and initiative, encouraging a humble dependence on God in their spiritual journey.
Conclusion
John 6:29 encapsulates a profound truth about the nature of faith and God's role in salvation. Jesus teaches that the essential "work" God requires is to believe in Him, the one whom God has sent. This belief is both a command and a gift, emphasizing the necessity of faith in Jesus for eternal life and the gracious work of God in enabling that faith.

 

[Rockson]

Reader-be beware of what?! @Kermos?

To tell you the full absolute truth beware of any and all who put forth Calvinistic thinking.

 

[Johann]

To tell you the full absolute truth beware of any and all who put forth Calvinistic thinking.

How sure are we we have our doctrines absolutely correct? That we speak the oracles of YHVH as we should? Not only speaking but living it?
here's a link on the church fathers=freely given to me from a member and now I freely give to you.

We are called to try the spirits-correct?

Biblical Teaching on Judgment Within the Christian Community​

General Principles​

1. Discernment vs. Condemnation:
   • Christians are called to exercise discernment but avoid a condemning attitude. Jesus teaches in Matthew 7:1-2, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you."
2. Righteous Judgment:
   • Jesus also emphasizes righteous judgment in John 7:24: "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment."
3. Self-examination:
   • Paul advises self-examination before judging others in 1 Corinthians 11:31: "But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged."
4. Church Discipline:
   • There are instances where judgment is necessary for maintaining purity within the church. For example, 1 Corinthians 5:12-13: "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. 'Purge the evil person from among you.'"

Examples of Judgment in the New Testament​

1. Church Discipline:
   • 1 Corinthians 5:1-5: Paul instructs the Corinthian church to expel a member engaged in serious sin, showing that church leaders must make judgments about behavior within the church.
   • Matthew 18:15-17: Jesus outlines a process for addressing sin within the community, which involves steps of confrontation and, if necessary, exclusion.
2. Doctrinal Correction:
   • Galatians 1:6-9: Paul judges the false teachers who are distorting the gospel and warns the church against them.
   • Titus 1:10-13: Paul instructs Titus to rebuke false teachers sharply to protect the faith community.
3. Personal Conduct:
   
   • James 5:19-20: Believers are encouraged to bring back those who wander from the truth, which involves discerning and addressing their actions.

Meaning of "Judge" in Greek and Hebrew​

Greek: "κρίνω" (krinō)​

• Definition: The Greek verb "κρίνω" (krinō) generally means "to judge, decide, determine." It can refer to forming an opinion, making a decision, or passing judgment on someone’s actions.
• Examples:
  • John 7:24: "Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment" (here, "krinō" is used for making a discerning judgment).
  • 1 Corinthians 6:2-3: "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world?... How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!" (here, "krinō" refers to deciding disputes within the church).

Hebrew: "שָׁפַט" (shāphat)​

• Definition: The Hebrew verb "שָׁפַט" (shāphat) means "to judge, govern, vindicate, or punish." It can involve legal decisions, moral discernment, or leadership.
• Examples:
  • Judges 2:16: "Then the Lord raised up judges, who saved them out of the hand of those who plundered them" (here, "shāphat" refers to leaders who made legal and moral judgments).
  • Isaiah 33:22: "For the Lord is our judge; the Lord is our lawgiver; the Lord is our king; he will save us" (here, "shāphat" emphasizes God’s role in judgment and governance).

Conclusion​

Christians are called to exercise discernment and righteous judgment within the body of Christ, especially in matters of sin, doctrine, and personal conduct. This involves making decisions and correcting behavior in a spirit of love and restoration rather than condemnation. The Greek word "krinō" and the Hebrew word "shāphat" both encompass aspects of judging, deciding, and governing, indicating a comprehensive approach to maintaining order and righteousness within the community.
It is crucial to approach judgment with humility, self-examination, and a desire for the spiritual growth of the community, following the principles laid out in Scripture.

CHURCH FATHERS: Home

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

here is the link on the Church Fathers and their Homilies on this site-IF you are interested @Rockson.

 

[Rockson]

."
John 6:27: He continues, "Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal."
John 6:28: The crowd then asks, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
Jesus' Response
Jesus responds in John 6:29: "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Analysis of John 6:29
Key Themes
Belief as God's Work:

Jesus emphasizes that the fundamental "work" God desires is not a set of rituals or actions, but belief in Jesus Himself.

OK fine but the actual word in the verse says to believe which is a verb and action required on their part.

The phrase "work of God" underscores that even faith itself is a result of God's initiative. It is God who enables and brings about belief in Jesus.

But hold on now and this is where some of these writers start muddying the waters. Nobody is saying that God doesn't encourage one to have faith or to believe. Calvinists go way beyond this however and imply God just puts the faith in one which includes them actually carrying out the action of believing. He does not. One is required after hearing the gospel to believe what Jesus did on the cross ....for with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9,10 The is something God DOES NOT do for man. That is the work that HE....THAT HE must do. That is the work Jesus said was their work or would become that after Jesus was raised from the dead.

In sharing the Gospel, the emphasis should be on inviting others to trust in Jesus, understanding that faith itself is a response to God's initiating work.

Nobody is denying that God isn't seeking and encouraging all individuals to become reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20 If you're wanting to say we respond to God's initiating work of course! But let's not take this down a WRONG road and seek to imply in some strange way that our actual embracing and receiving the grace of God was something God had full control over and if it happened it had to happen because God willed it. Sorry but such is Calvinism error.

Believers are reminded that their faith is sustained by God's power and initiative, encouraging a humble dependence on God in their spiritual journey.
Conclusion
John 6:29 encapsulates a profound truth about the nature of faith and God's role in salvation. Jesus teaches that the essential "work" God requires is to believe in Him, the one whom God has sent. This belief is both a command and a gift, emphasizing the necessity of faith in Jesus for eternal life and the gracious work of God in enabling that faith.

 

[TomL]

TomL, you wrote "Stop the worship of yourself which causes you to disregard context" in the same post that you exalt your self-willed context above Lord and God Jesus Christ's inclusive context of His first reply of see and His second reply of enter in your folly of "Experience - enter the kingdom of God is the meaning established by context" regarding John 3:3-8 (you slash John 3:6 out to intentionally obliterate context which excludes flesh from any righteousness), so, in effect, your heart nullifies King Jesus of the Kingdom of God's sayings of:

​

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​

(John 3:3-8)​

​

Sorry they are your gods. Along with you they teach Calvinism, Manichean gnosticism and unbiblical doctrine

And all you do is proclaim your interpretation correct while ignoring all that is contrary to it

Stop the worship of yourself which causes you to disregard context, the whole council of God, lexicons and Greek expert commentary and to distort what was posted

The context itself tells you what the meaning is

John 3:3–5 (NASB 2020) — 3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Notice the word Jesus uses in his reply

Experience - enter the kingdom of God is the meaning established by context

You ignore context

The kingdom does not come with observation

Luke 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

hello the kingdom is not something you see with your eyes according to Jesus himself

You ignore scripture which states it is not something you observe with your eyesn

In your self aggrandizement, you ignore the very words of Christ

Noted lexicons support such understanding

5. see someth.=experience someth. (Ps 26:13); good days 1 Pt 3:10 (Ps 33:13; τ. βασιλείαν J 3:3 BAGD industry standard lexicon

and cites John 3:3 as carrying such a meaning

You ignore the standard industry lexicon BAGD

5. LN 90.79 experience an event or state, the figurative extension of first entry (Jn 3:36

James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

You also ignore this

citing a similar passage

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

see life meaning to experience life

So you ignore parallel passages as well

4. to experience: τ. θάνατον, Lk 2:26, He 11:5; ζωήν, Jo 3:36; τ. διαφθοράν, Ac 2:27. A manual Greek lexicon of the New testament

and yet another lexicon

and greek commentary

He cannot see the kingdom of God (οὐ δυναται ἰδειν την βασιλειαν του θεου [ou dunatai idein tēn basileian tou theou]). To participate in it as in Luke 9:27. For this use of ἰδειν [idein] (second aorist active infinitive of ὁραω [horaō]) see John 8:51; Rev. 18:7.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 3:3.

That of greek scholar and Calvinist At Robertson

See” (ἰδεῖν aor. act. inf. of ὁράω; a complementary inf. after δύναται) here means “ ‘to experience, encounter, participate in,’ as, e.g., in ‘see death’ (8:51), ‘see life’ (3:36)” (Brown 130

Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 72.

Ignoring yet additional Greek expert commentary

it was not just A.t Robertson but noted lexicons and noted Greek expositors

Then there is the truncated version of Strongs you present as though it were the whole of the matter when it is not

3708. ὁράω horao, hor-ah´-o; properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear: — behold, perceive, see, take heed.

but you disingenuously presented as though it was

That was rather lacking in integrity

Your own evidence was actually contrary to your view

So we have context, scripture from parallel use, scripture contradicting the idea of observation, lexical data and Greek commentary all supporting the idea of experiencing entering into

As opposed to your own self affirming self deifying opinion

You have no evidence at all to offer, nothing new, and nothing which rebuts what I have posted above

nothing but your own opinion based upon a faulty assumed theology

 

[praise_yeshua]

OK fine but the actual word in the verse says to believe which is a verb and action required on their part.


But hold on now and this is where some of these writers start muddying the waters. Nobody is saying that God doesn't encourage one to have faith or to believe. Calvinists go way beyond this however and imply God just puts the faith in one which includes them actually carrying out the action of believing. He does not. One is required after hearing the gospel to believe what Jesus did on the cross ....for with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9,10 The is something God DOES NOT do for man. That is the work that HE....THAT HE must do. That is the work Jesus said was their work or would become that after Jesus was raised from the dead.

Nobody is denying that God isn't seeking and encouraging all individuals to become reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20 If you're wanting to say we respond to God's initiating work of course! But let's not take this down a WRONG road and seek to imply in some strange way that our actual embracing and receiving the grace of God was something God had full control over and if it happened it had to happen because God willed it. Sorry but such is Calvinism error.

"faith to faith" builds the exact causal event of faith in another.

God created the design and man must pass their faith on to others. This is the very core of how the Gospel changes lives.

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God;

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

 

[Johann]

Nobody is denying that God isn't seeking and encouraging all individuals to become reconciled to God. 2 Cor 5:20 If you're wanting to say we respond to God's initiating work of course! But let's not take this down a WRONG road and seek to imply in some strange way that our actual embracing and receiving the grace of God was something God had full control over and if it happened it had to happen because God willed it. Sorry but such is Calvinism error.

Really-have you read Calvin an his Institutes? Is there nothing-Doctrinally-we can learn from him, Owen, Edwards, Church Fathers?
Don't we have the Holy Spirit to discern truth from error?
I gave you the link-are you dismissing it?

 

[Johann]

Sorry they are your gods. Along with you they teach Calvinism, Manichean gnosticism and unbiblical doctrine

And all you do is proclaim your interpretation correct while ignoring all that is contrary to it

Stop the worship of yourself which causes you to disregard context, the whole council of God, lexicons and Greek expert commentary and to distort what was posted

The context itself tells you what the meaning is

John 3:3–5 (NASB 2020) — 3 Jesus responded and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Notice the word Jesus uses in his reply

Experience - enter the kingdom of God is the meaning established by context

You ignore context

The kingdom does not come with observation

Luke 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

hello the kingdom is not something you see with your eyes according to Jesus himself

You ignore scripture which states it is not something you observe with your eyesn

In your self aggrandizement, you ignore the very words of Christ

Noted lexicons support such understanding

5. see someth.=experience someth. (Ps 26:13); good days 1 Pt 3:10 (Ps 33:13; τ. βασιλείαν J 3:3 BAGD industry standard lexicon

and cites John 3:3 as carrying such a meaning

You ignore the standard industry lexicon BAGD

5. LN 90.79 experience an event or state, the figurative extension of first entry (Jn 3:36

James Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997).

You also ignore this

citing a similar passage

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

see life meaning to experience life

So you ignore parallel passages as well

4. to experience: τ. θάνατον, Lk 2:26, He 11:5; ζωήν, Jo 3:36; τ. διαφθοράν, Ac 2:27. A manual Greek lexicon of the New testament

and yet another lexicon

and greek commentary

He cannot see the kingdom of God (οὐ δυναται ἰδειν την βασιλειαν του θεου [ou dunatai idein tēn basileian tou theou]). To participate in it as in Luke 9:27. For this use of ἰδειν [idein] (second aorist active infinitive of ὁραω [horaō]) see John 8:51; Rev. 18:7.

A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Jn 3:3.

That of greek scholar and Calvinist At Robertson

See” (ἰδεῖν aor. act. inf. of ὁράω; a complementary inf. after δύναται) here means “ ‘to experience, encounter, participate in,’ as, e.g., in ‘see death’ (8:51), ‘see life’ (3:36)” (Brown 130

Murray J. Harris, John (Exegetical Guide to the Greek New Testament; B&H Academic, 2015), 72.

Ignoring yet additional Greek expert commentary

it was not just A.t Robertson but noted lexicons and noted Greek expositors

Then there is the truncated version of Strongs you present as though it were the whole of the matter when it is not

3708. ὁράω horao, hor-ah´-o; properly, to stare at (compare 3700), i.e. (by implication) to discern clearly (physically or mentally); by extension, to attend to; by Hebraism, to experience; passively, to appear: — behold, perceive, see, take heed.

but you disingenuously presented as though it was

That was rather lacking in integrity

Your own evidence was actually contrary to your view

So we have context, scripture from parallel use, scripture contradicting the idea of observation, lexical data and Greek commentary all supporting the idea of experiencing entering into

As opposed to your own self affirming self deifying opinion

You have no evidence at all to offer, nothing new, and nothing which rebuts what I have posted above

nothing but your own opinion based upon a faulty assumed theology

I'm trying to find coherence and consistency here-nada.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Really-have you read Calvin an his Institutes? Is there nothing-Doctrinally-we can learn from him, Owen, Edwards, Church Fathers?
Don't we have the Holy Spirit to discern truth from error?
I gave you the link-are you dismissing it?

Geesh. You think no one here doesn't know Calvin better than you do?

Edwards? I wrote a thesis on Edwards.

 

[civic]

Geesh. You think no one here doesn't know Calvin better than you do?

Edwards? I wrote a thesis on Edwards.

MacArther- I have every thing he ever wrote and know his doctrines like the back of my hand since I believe exactly like him for decades.

We have many such examples under our belt with church fathers, calvinist theologians. Toss Spurgeon in there too. How many times over the years do we use their own calvinist sources to keep them in check and show they have no idea what many of them taught.

 

[Johann]

Geesh. You think no one here doesn't know Calvin better than you do?

Edwards? I wrote a thesis on Edwards.

Is there nothing-Doctrinally-we can learn from him, Owen, Edwards, Church Fathers?
Don't we have the Holy Spirit to discern truth from error?

 

[civic]

Is there nothing-Doctrinally-we can learn from him, Owen, Edwards, Church Fathers?
Don't we have the Holy Spirit to discern truth from error?

no one is saying we have nothing to learn from them just not their views on predestination, election, sovereignty, regeneration, the doctrines of grace ( tulip ) faith, works ( they call faith works ) , mans free will, human volition, total depravity, PSA, the gospel just to name a few.

 

[Johann]

no one is saying we have nothing to learn from them just not their views on predestination, election, sovereignty, regeneration, the doctrines of grace ( tulip ) faith, works ( they call faith works ) , mans free will, human volition, total depravity, PSA, the gospel just to name a few.

Agree to disagree.

 

[civic]

Agree to disagree.

the disagreement is because you align with calvinists on some of the listed doctrines they teach.

 

[TomL]

I'm trying to find coherence and consistency here-nada.

Maybe you need some help to see

As context, parallel scriptures, lexicons, Greek commentary all support this one point: you must be born again to experience (enter) the kingdom of God

 

[Johann]

the disagreement is because you align with calvinists on some of the listed doctrines they teach.

Align with what stands written and trying to see how is it possible for a believer to have his/her will in a state of non-compliance to the will of Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit.