An Article on free will
- Thread starter TomL
- Start date
Align with what stands written and trying to see how is it possible for a believer to have his/her will in a state of non-compliance to the will of Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit.
The way you read and the way I read is not the same-no offense.
Romans, particularly chapters 6 and 7, addresses the believer's relationship with sin and the implications of their union with Christ. Here are some key passages along with brief explanations:
Romans 6:2-11:
Verse 2: "By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?"
Verse 6: "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin."
Verse 11: "In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus."
Explanation: Paul emphasizes the believer's identification with Christ's death and resurrection. Through faith in Christ, believers are united with Him in His death, symbolizing the end of their old sinful selves. Consequently, they are no longer slaves to sin but are alive to God, empowered by the Spirit to live a new life.
Romans 6:14:
"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace."
Explanation: Here, Paul contrasts the believer's new status under grace with their former state under the law. The believer's freedom from the mastery of sin is grounded in their union with Christ and the grace they receive through Him.
Romans 7:4:
"So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God."
Explanation: Paul illustrates how believers have died to the law through their identification with Christ's death. This death to the law liberates them to belong to Christ, enabling them to bear fruit for God.
Romans 7:6:
"But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."
Explanation: Believers are no longer bound by the law's demands because they have died to it through Christ. Instead, they serve God in the new way of the Spirit, guided by the indwelling Holy Spirit rather than adhering to the external requirements of the law.
These passages emphasize the believer's new identity in Christ, their freedom from the power of sin, and their empowerment by the Spirit to live a life pleasing to God. Through their union with Christ, believers are considered dead to sin and alive to God, enabling them to live transformed lives characterized by righteousness and obedience.
And a believer cannot remain in a state of sin-that would be a caricature since that would mean the "believer" was not regenerated by the Holy Spirit in the first place.
The parable of the ten virgins comes to mind-Judas and many other accounts in Scriptures.
Personally-and this is my opinion-I think being a Christian-for most-is a licence to keep on sinning without remorse, wasting precious time and the ego eimi not dethroned.
Yes Just to name a few
With that view you should tend more toward a Wesleyan holiness theology
Just standing on Scriptures-
Rom 6:1 Formerly Dead to Sin, Now Alive in Christ
¶ What therefore shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, in order that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we may live a new way of life [Literally “in newness of life”].
Rom 6:5 For if we have become identified with him in the likeness of his death, certainly also we will be identified with him in the likeness [The elliptical phrase “identified with him in the likeness” has been supplied in the translation for clarity] of his resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified together with him , in order that the body of sin may be done away with, that we may no longer be enslaved to sin.
Rom 6:7 For the one who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 ¶ Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, because he [*Here “because ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“has been raised”) which is understood as causal] has been raised from the dead, is going to die no more, death no longer being master over him.
Rom 6:10 For that death he died, he died to sin once and never again, but that life he lives, he lives to God.
Rom 6:11 So also you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 ¶ Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, so that you obey its desires,
Rom 6:13 and do not present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.
Rom 6:14 For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Yes and as I noted you should tend more toward a holiness theology
civic
Well-known member
The thing bring avoided is it Gods will that you sin which has not been answered with a yes or no.
It’s funny how the simple questions that reveal one’s motives and doctrines get ignored, diverted and dodged.
You don't agree with Paul and the portion of Scripture I gave you? First time you've even read it?!
Rom 6:1 Formerly Dead to Sin, Now Alive in Christ
¶ What therefore shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, in order that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we may live a new way of life [Literally “in newness of life”].
Rom 6:5 For if we have become identified with him in the likeness of his death, certainly also we will be identified with him in the likeness [The elliptical phrase “identified with him in the likeness” has been supplied in the translation for clarity] of his resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified together with him , in order that the body of sin may be done away with, that we may no longer be enslaved to sin.
Rom 6:7 For the one who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 ¶ Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, because he [*Here “because ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“has been raised”) which is understood as causal] has been raised from the dead, is going to die no more, death no longer being master over him.
Rom 6:10 For that death he died, he died to sin once and never again, but that life he lives, he lives to God.
Rom 6:11 So also you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 ¶ Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, so that you obey its desires,
Rom 6:13 and do not present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.
Rom 6:14 For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Is this how you "connect the dots?"
1 Peter 1:15-16:
"But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy.'"
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8:
"For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit."
1 Corinthians 6:19-20:
"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."
Ephesians 4:22-24:
"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness."
Galatians 5:16:
"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."
Romans 12:1-2:
"Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."
2 Corinthians 7:1:
"Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God."
Colossians 3:1-2:
"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things."
Titus 2:11-12:
"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age."
Hebrews 12:14:
"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
civic
Well-known member
Great scripture we all affirm thanks for sharing them with us.
Was there a point you were making ?
Ask @TomL.
civic
Well-known member
I was asking you to clarify not Tom
He probably never even read the Pauline Corpus-connecting with what stands written with the Wesleyan Holiness Movement.
civic
Well-known member
See for yourself-Why would you assume that ? Our own @TibiasDad is an expert in that area .
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--and said I'm espousing Wesleyan Holiness Movement and it is not a assumption, I have my glasses on.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
I just read this. See the demand for "compliance". Fear can get you to God but it certainly can't perfect you.
There many things in this life that can't be learned through knowledge alone. It must be experienced to be fully respected/known to us.
It is the "trial of faith" we all live.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You're not standing on anything with simple "lip service" such as this. Anyone can do what you just did. Anyone.
Claiming grace for yourself while denying it to others shows exactly were your heart is.
Jesus often offends us.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Rockson
Well-known member
Seems like you a way of reasoning that everyone is right, someway somehow on every subject. The fact is they're just not. Does that mean we're saying they can't be right about anything? Of course not. If they said Jesus was born of a virgin and that Jesus was deity well of course we agree. Calvinists however have done something horrendous and appalling in regard to the true understanding of the character of God which in my opinion is not just negative but has a very negative effect on the souls of men. There needs to be much exhortation and encouragement for one and all not to consider their claims valid.
Have I said I consider "their" claims valid? I have my Bible and can read for myself-problem is there is no dialogue in a Christlike manner.
That's the point.
Shalom brother.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
That is your "out". Take your "toys" and claim.... "it isn't fair".
Tell you what.....treat me like a fool. Jesus dealt with fools.
Mat 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mat 22:46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
He finds it inconceivable one who is born again can act contrary to the wishes/commands of God (paraphrase)
