An Article on free will

[TomL]

You don't agree with Paul and the portion of Scripture I gave you? First time you've even read it?!
Rom 6:1 Formerly Dead to Sin, Now Alive in Christ
¶ What therefore shall we say? Shall we continue in sin, in order that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that as many as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we may live a new way of life [Literally “in newness of life”].
Rom 6:5 For if we have become identified with him in the likeness of his death, certainly also we will be identified with him in the likeness [The elliptical phrase “identified with him in the likeness” has been supplied in the translation for clarity] of his resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified together with him , in order that the body of sin may be done away with, that we may no longer be enslaved to sin.
Rom 6:7 For the one who has died has been freed from sin.

Rom 6:8 ¶ Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, because he [*Here “because ” is supplied as a component of the participle (“has been raised”) which is understood as causal] has been raised from the dead, is going to die no more, death no longer being master over him.
Rom 6:10 For that death he died, he died to sin once and never again, but that life he lives, he lives to God.
Rom 6:11 So also you, consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Rom 6:12 ¶ Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, so that you obey its desires,
Rom 6:13 and do not present your members to sin as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who are alive from the dead, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness.
Rom 6:14 For sin will not be master over you, because you are not under law, but under grace.


Is this how you "connect the dots?"

1 Peter 1:15-16:

"But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: 'Be holy, because I am holy.'"
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8:

"For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit."
1 Corinthians 6:19-20:

"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies."
Ephesians 4:22-24:

"You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness."
Galatians 5:16:

"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh."
Romans 12:1-2:

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will."
2 Corinthians 7:1:

"Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God."
Colossians 3:1-2:

"Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things."
Titus 2:11-12:

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age."
Hebrews 12:14:

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."

I stated nothing at all about disagreeing with Paul

I did state given your view it would be more consistent for you to be in the holiness camp

 

[Rockson]

Align with what stands written and trying to see how is it possible for a believer to have his/her will in a state of non-compliance to the will of Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The answer to that is really quite simple. Just because God is big, omnipotent and powerful doesn't mean it's his nature to force his will upon any or all creation. This doesn't really have to so hard for you to understand.

So many things can be said even using analogies so at least it can provide you with a mental concept to grasp. Here's one.

Consider a Police Officer. To us his authority is chief if he pulls us over. He has overwhelming power and authority in the sense he can impose his will upon us and enforce his will . He has an authority or power to give us a ticket....he has that power.....such doesn't mean because he has it that he has to use it. Haven't you ever had a cop give you a break? I have. Power one has doesn't equate to a demand they have to use it.

Does God have the actual power to make everything comply to his will? I suppose he does as far as ability. Does he use it all the time though? That's another question and you should consider the answer to that is NO. And if a cop or somebody else like a parent DOESN'T ALWAYS impose their will why should we think God can't have that same liberty? Ironic thing is with so many that claim they believe in the sovereignty of God.....NO THEY DON'T. They demand that God MUST be sovereign in the way that they insist.

 

[Johann]

He finds it inconceivable one who is born again can act contrary to the wishes/commands of God (paraphrase)

If a believer's will acts independently and apart from the living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob-living in that state-not yielding to the Imperatives and leading of the Holy Spirit it is a caricature-that person is not born from above.

 

[TomL]

If a believer's will acts independently and apart from the living God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob-living in that state-not yielding to the Imperatives and leading of the Holy Spirit it is a caricature-that person is not born from above.

I am not arguing with you

I will just note

Romans 7:7–24 (KJV 1900) — 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I have seen posters in the Calvinist school attribute this passage to a regenerate Paul

 

[Johann]

I am not arguing with you

I will just note

Romans 7:7–24 (KJV 1900) — 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

I have seen posters in the Calvinist school attribute this passage to a regenerate Paul

The passage in Romans 7:7-24 is a well-known and often debated portion of Paul's epistle to the Romans, and it raises significant questions about whether Paul is describing his pre-conversion experience or his post-conversion experience as a regenerate believer. Here's a closer look at the context and arguments for both interpretations:

### Context and Content

1. **Understanding the Law and Sin (7:7-13)**
- Paul begins by defending the Law, asserting that it is not sinful. Instead, the Law reveals sin (e.g., coveting) and shows its true nature.
- He describes a personal experience where sin, taking advantage of the Law, produced in him all kinds of covetous desires. This illustrates how the Law, though good, exposes and amplifies sin.

2. **Struggle with Sin (7:14-24)**
- Paul describes an inner conflict where he desires to do good but finds himself doing evil.
- He acknowledges the spiritual nature of the Law but admits to being "carnal, sold under sin" (v.14).
- He details the frustration of his inner conflict, emphasizing that while he delights in the Law of God inwardly, he sees another law at work in his body, waging war against his mind and making him a prisoner of the law of sin.

### Interpretations

1. **Pre-Conversion Experience (Unregenerate Paul)**
- Some argue that Paul is describing his experience before he became a Christian. This view suggests that the struggle and captivity to sin reflect his condition under the Law, without the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.
- Verses like 7:14 ("I am carnal, sold under sin") and 7:23 ("bringing me into captivity to the law of sin") are interpreted as descriptions of Paul's unregenerate state.
- The argument here is that a regenerate believer would not be described as "sold under sin" since believers are described elsewhere as set free from sin's dominion (Romans 6:18).

2. **Post-Conversion Experience (Regenerate Paul)**
- Others argue that Paul is describing his ongoing struggle with sin as a believer. This view emphasizes the realistic portrayal of the Christian's inner battle against the sinful nature.
- Verses like 7:22 ("I delight in the law of God after the inward man") suggest a regenerate heart, as an unregenerate person would not delight in God's law in this way.
- The struggle described in 7:15-20 ("what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I") resonates with the common Christian experience of battling indwelling sin.
- The conclusion in 7:24-25 ("O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord") points to the believer's ongoing need for and reliance on Christ for deliverance.

### Conclusion

While both interpretations have merit, many scholars and theologians lean towards the view that Paul is describing his post-conversion experience. This interpretation aligns with the overall message of Romans, which acknowledges the continuing struggle with sin even in the life of a believer, but also highlights the ultimate victory through Jesus Christ.

### Biblical and Theological Support

- **Romans 6:6-7**: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."
- This supports the idea that believers are freed from the dominion of sin but does not preclude the ongoing struggle with its presence.

- **Galatians 5:17**: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
- This passage describes the ongoing battle between the flesh and the Spirit, similar to Paul's struggle in Romans 7.

- **1 John 1:8**: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
- This acknowledges the reality of sin in the life of a believer, aligning with Paul's description of his inner conflict.

In summary, Romans 7:7-24 is best understood as Paul’s description of the ongoing struggle with sin that even a regenerate believer experiences. This passage highlights the believer's dependence on Christ for deliverance from the power and presence of sin, affirming the need for continual reliance on God's grace.

So you think this is Paul-the unregenerate penning these words?

 

[civic]

The answer to that is really quite simple. Just because God is big, omnipotent and powerful doesn't mean it's his nature to force his will upon any or all creation. This doesn't really have to so hard for you to understand.

So many things can be said even using analogies so at least it can provide you with a mental concept to grasp. Here's one.

Consider a Police Officer. To us his authority is chief if he pulls us over. He has overwhelming power and authority in the sense he can impose his will upon us and enforce his will . He has an authority or power to give us a ticket....he has that power.....such doesn't mean because he has it that he has to use it. Haven't you ever had a cop give you a break? I have. Power one has doesn't equate to a demand they have to use it.

Does God have the actual power to make everything comply to his will? I suppose he does as far as ability. Does he use it all the time though? That's another question and you should consider the answer to that is NO. And if a cop or somebody else like a parent DOESN'T ALWAYS impose their will why should we think God can't have that same liberty? Ironic thing is with so many that claim they believe in the sovereignty of God.....NO THEY DON'T. They demand that God MUST be sovereign in the way that they insist.

Amen

 

[TomL]

The passage in Romans 7:7-24 is a well-known and often debated portion of Paul's epistle to the Romans, and it raises significant questions about whether Paul is describing his pre-conversion experience or his post-conversion experience as a regenerate believer. Here's a closer look at the context and arguments for both interpretations:

### Context and Content

1. **Understanding the Law and Sin (7:7-13)**
- Paul begins by defending the Law, asserting that it is not sinful. Instead, the Law reveals sin (e.g., coveting) and shows its true nature.
- He describes a personal experience where sin, taking advantage of the Law, produced in him all kinds of covetous desires. This illustrates how the Law, though good, exposes and amplifies sin.

2. **Struggle with Sin (7:14-24)**
- Paul describes an inner conflict where he desires to do good but finds himself doing evil.
- He acknowledges the spiritual nature of the Law but admits to being "carnal, sold under sin" (v.14).
- He details the frustration of his inner conflict, emphasizing that while he delights in the Law of God inwardly, he sees another law at work in his body, waging war against his mind and making him a prisoner of the law of sin.

### Interpretations

1. **Pre-Conversion Experience (Unregenerate Paul)**
- Some argue that Paul is describing his experience before he became a Christian. This view suggests that the struggle and captivity to sin reflect his condition under the Law, without the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit.
- Verses like 7:14 ("I am carnal, sold under sin") and 7:23 ("bringing me into captivity to the law of sin") are interpreted as descriptions of Paul's unregenerate state.
- The argument here is that a regenerate believer would not be described as "sold under sin" since believers are described elsewhere as set free from sin's dominion (Romans 6:18).

2. **Post-Conversion Experience (Regenerate Paul)**
- Others argue that Paul is describing his ongoing struggle with sin as a believer. This view emphasizes the realistic portrayal of the Christian's inner battle against the sinful nature.
- Verses like 7:22 ("I delight in the law of God after the inward man") suggest a regenerate heart, as an unregenerate person would not delight in God's law in this way.
- The struggle described in 7:15-20 ("what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I") resonates with the common Christian experience of battling indwelling sin.
- The conclusion in 7:24-25 ("O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord") points to the believer's ongoing need for and reliance on Christ for deliverance.

### Conclusion

While both interpretations have merit, many scholars and theologians lean towards the view that Paul is describing his post-conversion experience. This interpretation aligns with the overall message of Romans, which acknowledges the continuing struggle with sin even in the life of a believer, but also highlights the ultimate victory through Jesus Christ.

### Biblical and Theological Support

- **Romans 6:6-7**: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."
- This supports the idea that believers are freed from the dominion of sin but does not preclude the ongoing struggle with its presence.

- **Galatians 5:17**: "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
- This passage describes the ongoing battle between the flesh and the Spirit, similar to Paul's struggle in Romans 7.

- **1 John 1:8**: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
- This acknowledges the reality of sin in the life of a believer, aligning with Paul's description of his inner conflict.

In summary, Romans 7:7-24 is best understood as Paul’s description of the ongoing struggle with sin that even a regenerate believer experiences. This passage highlights the believer's dependence on Christ for deliverance from the power and presence of sin, affirming the need for continual reliance on God's grace.

So you think this is Paul-the unregenerate penning these words?

Yes but the point is given your previous comments you should not agree this concerns a post regenerate Paul if you are going to be consistent

 

[Johann]

Yes but the point is given your previous comments you should not agree this concerns a post regenerate Paul if you are going to be consistent

Why should I not agree this concerns a post regenerate Paul-would that make me inconsistent?

 

[Kermos]

Nothing new here you simply repeat whatever you have stated in the past garnishing it with your opinion and distortions

Sorry you assume an interpretation consistent with your theology while ignoring context and the harmony of scripture

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Calvinists tend toward isolating verses from their context so they can read their theology into the text

The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

In context its meaning is that which God requires of man

What are we to do?

The same question the Jews convicted by the words of Peter uttered

Acts 2:37 (NASB 2020) — 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what are we to do?”


The answer is never nothing or God must do it no

You must believe


again

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Jesus tells them there is something they must do to obtain the food which last for eternal life

in context it is to believe on him

John 6:35–36 (NASB 2020) — 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe.

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

Again this establishes the meaning of the phrase the work of God as that which is required by God

John 6:29 (NASB 2020) — 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus tells them they must believe

John 6:30 (NASB 2020) — 30 So they said to Him, “What then are You doing as a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work are You performing?

The jews understand him to be telling them they must believe.

An understanding confirmed by Christ

John 6:32–40 (NASB 2020) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe. 37 Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

He reiterates one must believe

He placed their failure to believe not on the Father for not having given them faith, but upon themselves. They did not believe

affirming again one believe (active voice) on him to have eternal life

Believe a word which appears 101 times in th\re KJV new testament book of John

And never once does he state the Father effectually causes you to believe as per your theology

They must believe

An understanding confirmed by scripture

Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Acts 2:37 (NASB 2020) — 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what are we to do?”
Acts 2:38 (NASB 2020) — 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


You have addressed none of this and just assume an interpretation consistent with your theology

depending on the tradition of men

yet even those of your own tradition oppose your interpretation because they consider context

and so even Calvinist commentators agree with this obvious reading


John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)



This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.

Even the notes to the Geneva bible refute you


Verse 29
5. Men torment themselves in vain when they try to please God without faith.
g. That is, this is the work that God requires, that you believe in me, and therefore he calls them back to faith.


Geneva Bible Notes (1599). (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2003), Jn 6:28–29.

Three Calvinist sources rebut your understanding even the namesake of your theology and I can easily supply more

Bible Verse		Explicit Concept
they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” (John 6:28)		Man working God.
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29)		God working man.

Lord Jesus expresses that God works man to the exclusion of man's works.

God causes me to know and proclaim the Word of God that leads to eternal Life by God's grace for God's glory! Thank you, Jesus!

Just look at how you quote your god Calvin, again. Oh, how intently you listen to your god Calvin as evidenced by the great multitude of times you quote your god Calvin! You repeat the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

Every Christian Believing In The Son Whom The Father Has Sent Is The Work Of God​

A voice from Heaven was heard, saying "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5), and we Christians hear Christ.

Let's examine the context of the people's word, and, more importantly, the Word of God speaks the Truth (John 14:6) without human interpretation.

Let’s review the exchange:

​

they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”​

(John 6:28-33)​

​

The people asked about their own work respecting salvation when they inquired “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28), yet Christ rightly removed man’s work from anyplace respecting salvation when He responded “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

The people failed to understand, just like free-willian philosophers, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29). Do not be deceived, "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

The people followed up by asking/injecting the work of man, again, with “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness” (John 6:31) in a manner that free-willian philosophers listen to the people instead of "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

The Lord shifts the focus from man’s purported control to God’s Sovereign control, this second time in the same exchange, with “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:32-33). "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

Behold, the Word of God establishes that faith/belief is given by God without any contribution by man (John 6:29) and, in like manner, life is given by the bread of God without any contribution by man (John 6:32-33).

PRAISE JESUS FOR HIS LOVINGKINDNESS!!!

In Truth (John 14:6), the Christ of us Christians intensifies that God works man regarding saving faith/belief, not man working, but truly the Bread of Life (John 6:35) as exclusive Savior!

Free-willian Philosophers convey things like “They obviously understood jesus to be saying what God requires of you is that you believe” (the word of TomL, see post #1,818) about the people recorded in John 6:28-33 in order for the free-willian heart’s treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) to justify adulterating the Word of God resulting in “This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (the traditions of man, see Matthew 15:9).

The Lord uses the continuing exchange to illumine the people's, and free-willian, ignorance. The Word of God is precise and pure “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29) - "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

This examination needs to expand to the larger passage of "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (John 6:27), but this would be incomplete without the intervening passage culminating with "Then they said to Him, 'Lord, always give us this bread.' Jesus said to them, 'I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst'" (John 6:34-35).

Do not be confused about the "who comes to Me" in John 6:35 because the Lord says "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so we Christians work for God because God wrings our work/deeds out of us!

In John 6:27 and John 6:34-35, Jesus says He is our Christian's food (John 6:27), our Christian Bread of Life (John 6:35). "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

The Christ of us Christians says "I am the Living Bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh" (John 6:51).

We Christians work (John 6:27) for the Bread of Life (John 6:35) according to the Power of God (John 3:21), so we proclaim the glorious King of the Kingdom of God in the Power of God to the world; therefore, this "proclaiming" is working for the food enduring to eternal life (John 6:27). Christ gives Himself, the Bread of Life, to us Christians for we Christians partake in the food of the Body and Blood of Christ, so our wonderful Leader sustains and strengthens us for the works prepared for us beforehand by God to the Glory of God! God has set His seal on us Christians, that is, our seal is our very believing in the Son whom the Father has sent by the Grace of God for the Glory of God!

Praise the Lord for He explains our Christian work (John 6:27) is to eat the Bread of Life (John 6:35, John 6:51). Christ says "work" "for the food" (John 6:27) which means "work for Christ" as in fruit of the Spirit of the Living God (see bearing fruit in John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16 and Galatians 5:22-23), so Christ says not that believing in Christ is the work of man, so this means free-willian philosopher's "He told them there was a certain type of work they were to do and it was the work of faith so stop trying to twist the passage and say it wasn't so" (the word of Rockson regarding John 6:27, see post #1,847) is false according to the Word of God!

Free-willian Philosophers are under the delusion that "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (tthe Word of God, John 6:27) in their hearts translates to "Do not work for the food which perishes, but YOU HAVE THE ABILITY IN YOUR OWN INITIATIVE TO WORK for the food which endures to eternal life, SO YOU MUST CHOOSE WHETHER TO ACCEPT THE FOOD THAT the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (the word of free-willians) in spite of the Word of God sayings “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right” (Luke 12:57) and
“you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).

Free-willian's hearts even subtract "which the Son of Man will give to you" (John 6:27) about the food for which Jesus says "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). Jesus clearly states the righteous work of man is Fruit of the Spirit because the food is given by God to man which is another declaration about the exclusive power of God in the salvation of man. A crucial concept established by Jesus in John 6:27 is that the only people to receive Jesus' food are the people to whom Jesus gives the food, but free-willian philosophy ends up with people in hell who are failures of "the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). This paragraph's explanation is all in the recorded Word of God in John 6:27 without stepping to another verse. "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

The Word in John 6:27 refers to the man's work which is truly the act of God in man; on the other hand, the Word in John 6:29 refers to man's belief which is truly the act of God in man.

In the first moment (John 6:27), Lord Jesus explains the outward evidence of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven, and in the second moment (John 6:29), Jesus explains the inward event of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven, and this Father declares "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE FATHER IN HEAVEN!!!

 

[TomL]

Bible Verse	Explicit Concept
they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” (John 6:28)	Man working God.
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29)	God working man.

Lord Jesus expresses that God works man to the exclusion of man's works.

God causes me to know and proclaim the Word of God that leads to eternal Life by God's grace for God's glory! Thank you, Jesus!

Just look at how you quote your god Calvin, again. Oh, how intently you listen to your god Calvin as evidenced by the great multitude of times you quote your god Calvin! You repeat the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

Every Christian Believing In The Son Whom The Father Has Sent Is The Work Of God​

A voice from Heaven was heard, saying "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5), and we Christians hear Christ.

Let's examine the context of the people's word, and, more importantly, the Word of God speaks the Truth (John 14:6) without human interpretation.

Let’s review the exchange:

​

they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”​

(John 6:28-33)​

​

The people asked about their own work respecting salvation when they inquired “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God” (John 6:28), yet Christ rightly removed man’s work from anyplace respecting salvation when He responded “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29).

The people failed to understand, just like free-willian philosophers, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29). Do not be deceived, "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

The people followed up by asking/injecting the work of man, again, with “Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness” (John 6:31) in a manner that free-willian philosophers listen to the people instead of "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

The Lord shifts the focus from man’s purported control to God’s Sovereign control, this second time in the same exchange, with “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”
(John 6:32-33). "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

Behold, the Word of God establishes that faith/belief is given by God without any contribution by man (John 6:29) and, in like manner, life is given by the bread of God without any contribution by man (John 6:32-33).

PRAISE JESUS FOR HIS LOVINGKINDNESS!!!

In Truth (John 14:6), the Christ of us Christians intensifies that God works man regarding saving faith/belief, not man working, but truly the Bread of Life (John 6:35) as exclusive Savior!

Free-willian Philosophers convey things like “They obviously understood jesus to be saying what God requires of you is that you believe” (the word of TomL, see post #1,818) about the people recorded in John 6:28-33 in order for the free-willian heart’s treasure (Matthew 15:16-19) to justify adulterating the Word of God resulting in “This is NOT the work of God BUT THIS IS THE WORK OF MAN, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (the traditions of man, see Matthew 15:9).

The Lord uses the continuing exchange to illumine the people's, and free-willian, ignorance. The Word of God is precise and pure “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29) - "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

This examination needs to expand to the larger passage of "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (John 6:27), but this would be incomplete without the intervening passage culminating with "Then they said to Him, 'Lord, always give us this bread.' Jesus said to them, 'I am the Bread of Life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst'" (John 6:34-35).

Do not be confused about the "who comes to Me" in John 6:35 because the Lord says "he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21), so we Christians work for God because God wrings our work/deeds out of us!

In John 6:27 and John 6:34-35, Jesus says He is our Christian's food (John 6:27), our Christian Bread of Life (John 6:35). "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

The Christ of us Christians says "I am the Living Bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh" (John 6:51).

We Christians work (John 6:27) for the Bread of Life (John 6:35) according to the Power of God (John 3:21), so we proclaim the glorious King of the Kingdom of God in the Power of God to the world; therefore, this "proclaiming" is working for the food enduring to eternal life (John 6:27). Christ gives Himself, the Bread of Life, to us Christians for we Christians partake in the food of the Body and Blood of Christ, so our wonderful Leader sustains and strengthens us for the works prepared for us beforehand by God to the Glory of God! God has set His seal on us Christians, that is, our seal is our very believing in the Son whom the Father has sent by the Grace of God for the Glory of God!

Praise the Lord for He explains our Christian work (John 6:27) is to eat the Bread of Life (John 6:35, John 6:51). Christ says "work" "for the food" (John 6:27) which means "work for Christ" as in fruit of the Spirit of the Living God (see bearing fruit in John 3:21 and John 15:5 and John 15:16 and Galatians 5:22-23), so Christ says not that believing in Christ is the work of man, so this means free-willian philosopher's "He told them there was a certain type of work they were to do and it was the work of faith so stop trying to twist the passage and say it wasn't so" (the word of Rockson regarding John 6:27, see post #1,847) is false according to the Word of God!

Free-willian Philosophers are under the delusion that "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (tthe Word of God, John 6:27) in their hearts translates to "Do not work for the food which perishes, but YOU HAVE THE ABILITY IN YOUR OWN INITIATIVE TO WORK for the food which endures to eternal life, SO YOU MUST CHOOSE WHETHER TO ACCEPT THE FOOD THAT the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal" (the word of free-willians) in spite of the Word of God sayings “And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right” (Luke 12:57) and
“you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).

Free-willian's hearts even subtract "which the Son of Man will give to you" (John 6:27) about the food for which Jesus says "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). Jesus clearly states the righteous work of man is Fruit of the Spirit because the food is given by God to man which is another declaration about the exclusive power of God in the salvation of man. A crucial concept established by Jesus in John 6:27 is that the only people to receive Jesus' food are the people to whom Jesus gives the food, but free-willian philosophy ends up with people in hell who are failures of "the food which endures to eternal life" (John 6:27). This paragraph's explanation is all in the recorded Word of God in John 6:27 without stepping to another verse. "Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

The Word in John 6:27 refers to the man's work which is truly the act of God in man; on the other hand, the Word in John 6:29 refers to man's belief which is truly the act of God in man.

In the first moment (John 6:27), Lord Jesus explains the outward evidence of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven, and in the second moment (John 6:29), Jesus explains the inward event of us Christians controlled by our loving Father in Heaven, and this Father declares "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to Him" (Matthew 17:5).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE FATHER IN HEAVEN!!!

What an absurd rational

Jesus tells them to work for the food that endures to eternal life

They ask what is this work and he tells them they must believe. John writes that men might believe and be saved, repeats it over and over they must believe

Nowhere are they told they cannot believe.

In fact, we read men have to be hardened to prevent belief or they must have the truth hidden from them in parables so they will not believe

None of that makes any sense if they are unable to believe

but it is not the biblical data which drives your interpretation but your suppositional theology

As I noted previously

Nothing new here you simply repeat whatever you have stated in the past garnishing it with your opinion and distortions

Sorry you assume an interpretation consistent with your theology while ignoring context and the harmony of scripture

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Calvinists tend toward isolating verses from their context so they can read their theology into the text

The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

In context its meaning is that which God requires of man

What are we to do?

The same question the Jews convicted by the words of Peter uttered

Acts 2:37 (NASB 2020) — 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what are we to do?”


The answer is never nothing or God must do it no

You must believe


again

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Jesus tells them there is something they must do to obtain the food which last for eternal life

in context it is to believe on him

John 6:35–36 (NASB 2020) — 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe.

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

Again this establishes the meaning of the phrase the work of God as that which is required by God

John 6:29 (NASB 2020) — 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus tells them they must believe

John 6:30 (NASB 2020) — 30 So they said to Him, “What then are You doing as a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work are You performing?

The jews understand him to be telling them they must believe.

An understanding confirmed by Christ

John 6:32–40 (NASB 2020) — 32 Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.” 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe. 37 Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

He reiterates one must believe

He placed their failure to believe not on the Father for not having given them faith, but upon themselves. They did not believe

affirming again one believe (active voice) on him to have eternal life

Believe a word which appears 101 times in th\re KJV new testament book of John

And never once does he state the Father effectually causes you to believe as per your theology

They must believe

An understanding confirmed by scripture

Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Acts 2:37 (NASB 2020) — 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what are we to do?”
Acts 2:38 (NASB 2020) — 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


You have addressed none of this and just assume an interpretation consistent with your theology

depending on the tradition of men

yet even those of your own tradition oppose your interpretation because they consider context

and so even Calvinist commentators agree with this obvious reading


John Calvin: “People who infer from this passage that faith is God’s gift are mistaken, for Christ does not show here what God produces in us, but what God wants and requires from us.” (The Crossway Classic Commentaries: John; Crossway Books; Wheaton, IL; 1994, p.393)



This is the work of God. This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth, Ro. 10:4.11 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 244.

Even the notes to the Geneva bible refute you


Verse 29
5. Men torment themselves in vain when they try to please God without faith.
g. That is, this is the work that God requires, that you believe in me, and therefore he calls them back to faith.


Geneva Bible Notes (1599). (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2003), Jn 6:28–29.

Three Calvinist sources rebut your understanding even the namesake of your theology and I can easily supply more

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Nowhere are they told they cannot believe.

24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

 

[TomL]

24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Sorry that speaks of a rich man

And what difficulty would there be for a rich man if God were determining his belief

The rich man would be at no more a disadvantage than the poor man

The context is contrary to your doctrine

In any case you just ignored this

What an absurd rational

Jesus tells them to work for the food that endures to eternal life

They ask what is this work and he tells them they must believe. John writes that men might believe and be saved, repeats it over and over they must believe

Nowhere are they told they cannot believe.

In fact, we read men have to be hardened to prevent belief or they must have the truth hidden from them in parables so they will not believe

None of that makes any sense if they are unable to believe

 

[Kermos]

Newsflash I am not the calvinist here you are

Again you simply ignore the facts

first you appeal to passive uses of the word receive

ignoring the fact receive is active in John 1:12

This was pointed out but you simply ignore it

just as you ignored multiple citiations from the lexicons and other facts as was p;osted previouskly



You address not a one

You failed to address parallel text

you ignored the fact that you commit a basic error of hermeneutic by appealing to non-parallel contexts

You ignored the lexicons while appealing to strongs

but it was an incomplete disingenuous citing of strongs which simply left off support for my position

By your criteria the truncated deceptive appeal to strongs indicate your lord

you additionally failed to address my argument seen above

but most of all you ignored scripture for the verse itself defines the word

John 1:12 (ESV) — 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:12 (LSB) — 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Further as i argued and you ignored

Your interpretation has men being born again by having Christ indwell them before receiving the right to be born again


receiving the right to become a child of God is to receive the right to be born again

one receiving that right by receiving believing on Christ


In short you simply repeat the same failed arguments while failing to address the rebuttal of them

A rather disingenuous and insufficient methodology

"In continuing news, Kermos the Christian reports that ( edited for personal comments about the poster )

I've not quoted Calvin a single time as support for the Sovereignty of God, but you constantly quote Calvin as support for your sovereignty of man free-willian faith factory.

I proclaim the Sovereignty of God in the Holy Name of Lord Jesus Christ.

You preach the sovereignty of man in your own imagination's context.

You confuse the word of TomL for the Word of God, so it is no surprise that you confuse me, a Christian, for a Calvinist.

I am not a Calvinist.

I am a Christian because I am forgiven in Christ.

I am a Christian because my God wonderfully says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and I believe in the Messiah whom God has sent! Praise be to the Living God!

You ignore the fact that God causes me to write that receive is active in John 1:12 with "joyfully receive".

I am unlike you who listens to your god Calvin, your "Calvinist commentary", your "Calvinist traditions of men" that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

First you ignore context as though you can determine the meaning of receive in John1:12 by appealing to a different context

That is a very basic error

then you ignore a parallel texts speaking of receiving man even Christ in John's gospel

John 4:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 Then when he was come into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did at Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast.

The Galilaeans received Christ

John 5:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

John 13:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

then you ignore the lexicons and Greek and Calvinist commentary

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/an-article-on-free-will.1287/post-76621

but most of all you ignored scripture for the verse itself defines the word

John 1:12 (ESV) — 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

John 1:12 (KJV 1900) — 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:12 (LSB) — 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Further as i argued and you ignored

Your interpretation has men being born again by having Christ indwell them before receiving the right to be born again


receiving the right to become a child of God is to receive the right to be born again

one receiving that right by receiving believing on Christ

Your contrived context is false about John 1:10-13, amd the following is proof.

The deceptions of your gods, such as your Lord Arndt whose word you take as your own (proof post #2,141), do not refute the Truth (John 14:6) except in your heart - the comments of your gods are NOT the Word of God.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:

The man received a punch to his face dislocating his septum - not by choice - but in the fury of his assailant's surprise attack.

The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but as a result of the car jumping the curb.

A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.

Receive means a thing that unavoidably came in from a source to a recipient - receive is not a choice like accept - receive just happens.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:

1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)

There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".

The Greek word ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive) lexicon definition is "receive", and the specific instance of ἔλαβον used by the Apostle John in John 1:12 is an active indicative aorist verb in the third person; therefore, the word ἔλαβον conveys the active concept of "joyfully" by the recipient of "receive" with the "receive" being initiated and caused by the the source, not the recipient, but truly God is the cause (John 1:12-13), so John conveys "joyfully receive" is the active meaning for ἔλαβον.

In the Greek lexicon etymology, "to be seized by" is found for ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive).

"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:

The Apostle John wrote "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is a result of being born of God in John 1:12-13.

The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is not an act of the will of man in John 1:12-13.

The ones who received Christ are the ones "who were born" "of God".

Let's follow John's blessed chain linking these people:

• John starts with the full population of the planet "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him" (John 1:10) as he builds toward the source of holiness which is "born of God" (John 1:13).
• John narrows the population to Israel only "He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11).
• John further narrows the focus to a sub-population of Israel "but as many as received Him" (John 1:12)
• John equates the population of "but as many as received Him" (John 1:12) with the population of "children of God" (John 1:12) as he builds toward the source of holiness, that is, "born of God" (John 1:13).
• John further equates the population of "children of God" (John 1:12) with the population of "believe in His name" increasing tempo about the source of holiness being"born of God" (John 1:13).
• John arrives at the source of holiness for every single one of us saints (holy ones) which is being "born of God" (John 1:13).

John's Good Message narrows the focus then he further narrows the focus then he further narrows the focus then further narrowing onward, so we can expand the focus starting with John's primary foundational point moving toward the secondary larger point and then the tertiary broader point and so on.

John's primary foundational point is "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) which results in John's secondary point of "believe in His name" (John 1:12, John 6:29) and "children of God" (John 1:12, John 3:3-8) and "many as received Him" (John 1:12, John 9) which has implications for John's tertiary point "His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11) which arrives at John's opening, broadest point which is the fact that "born of God" (John 1:13, John 3:3-8) does not include everybody in "the world" (John 1:10).

John has the "born of God" as the first and primary position.

Each of these are exactly the same people:

• "many as received Him"
• "children of God"
• "believe in His name"
• "born of God"

See that John explicitly excludes "the will of man" as the cause for all of these.

John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to receive Jesus.

John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to receive Jesus.

John 1:12-13 shows that you cannot cause yourself to believe in Jesus.

John 1:12-13 shows that God causes people to believe in Jesus.

Again, here is the passage:

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

"Peter [said] to them, 'Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'" (Acts 2:38-39, this was Peter's response after the people who were pierced to the heart by Peter's proclamation of the Word of God inquired "Brethren, what shall we do" in Acts 2:14-37)

Peter issued the command "think differently from now on" (repent) and the command "be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins" and here is where "receive" comes in, "you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" which is an act of God.

The word "receive" means "unavoidably enters"; on the other hand, the word "accept" means "allowed to enter".

The work of "accept" is specifically disallowed in the passage with "nor of the will of man" because man causes not man to be "born of God" nor man causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", nor man causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).

The grammatical sense of the word "receive" indicates Christ "unavoidably enters" a joyfully receptive person according to the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24) because the Apostle indicates the "born of God" are the ones that God causes to "believe in His name", whom are the "children of God", whom are the ones that God causes to be the "many as received Him" (John 1:12-13).

About "receiving":

​

Man is not the cause of man receiving Christ (Luke 12:57).​

​

God is the cause of man receiving Christ (John 1:12-13).​

​

We Christians actively in thankfulness receive Christ!​

​

About "believing":

​

Man is not the cause of man believing in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-10).​

​

God is the cause of man believing in Christ (John 6:29).​

​

We Christians joyfully believe in Christ!​

​

All glory to King Jesus reigning on His Throne in the eternal Kingdom of God for His Salvation of man!!! Amen!!!

We Christians receive saving belief/faith from God our Savior (John 1:12-13, John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10)!

Your heart makes false statements about God. Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE LORD THAT IMPARTS SAVING FAITH!!!

 

[TomL]

"In continuing news, Kermos the Christian reports that ( edited for personal comments about the poster )

Why is it you cannot post without resorting to ad hominem

I've not quoted Calvin a single time as support for the Sovereignty of God, but you constantly quote Calvin as support for your sovereignty of man free-willian faith factory.

I proclaim the Sovereignty of God in the Holy Name of Lord Jesus Christ.

You preach the sovereignty of man in your own imagination's context.

Still more personal invective

deal with evidence not by insulting others but by citing scripture

You confuse the word of TomL for the Word of God, so it is no surprise that you confuse me, a Christian, for a Calvinist.

You have yet to prove that as you quoted man and your own opinion as evidence

I am not a Calvinist.

I am a Christian because I am forgiven in Christ.

I am a Christian because my God wonderfully says “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29), and I believe in the Messiah whom God has sent! Praise be to the Living God!

This is totally repeat claim which just ignore context and assumes a meaning to your liking

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Calvinists tend toward isolating verses from their context do they can read their theology into the text

Kermos said:



The people failed to understand, just like you, that Lord Jesus removed the work of man from saving belief/faith with the Lord’s marvelous sayings of “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29).


There you go with your unsupported assumptions

The phrase work of God has been defined for us by verse 28

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

In context its meaning is that which God requires of man

Repeating the same failed claims changes nothing

John 6:27 (NASB 2020) — 27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that lasts for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

Jesus tells them there is something they must do to obtain the food which last for eternal life

in context it is to believe on him

John 6:35–36 (NASB 2020) — 35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty. 36 But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe.

John 6:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 Therefore they said to Him, “What are we to do, so that we may accomplish the works of God?”

Again this establishes the meaning of the phrase the work of God as that which is required by God

John 6:29 (NASB 2020) — 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Jesus tells them they must believe

John 6:30 (NASB 2020) — 30 So they said to Him, “What then are You doing as a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work are You performing?

The jew understand him to be telling them they must believe.

An understanding confirmed by Christ as per verse 35 above

They must believe

An understanding confirmed by scripture

Acts 16:30–31 (NASB 2020) — 30 and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

You ignore the fact that God causes me to write that receive is active in John 1:12 with "joyfully receive".

Um I noted receive is active while you present all passive uses apart from the bible ignoring context and lexicon

here is a parallel example of receive in a biblical rather than a contrived English context


John 5:43 (KJV 1900) — 43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

I am unlike you who listens to your god Calvin, your "Calvinist commentary", your "Calvinist traditions of men" that lead to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

You fail to show you listen to god as you have presented no evidence in support of your view other than your own assumption

It's so funny you are the one espouses Calvinist theology and I am the one opposing it

but strangely you imagine Calvin is my God

laughable

you follow his teaching

Your contrived context is false about John 1:10-13, amd the following is proof.

The deceptions of your gods, such as your Lord Arndt whose word you take as your own (proof post #2,141), do not refute the Truth (John 14:6) except in your heart - the comments of your gods are NOT the Word of God.

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY EXAMPLE:

The man received a punch to his face dislocating his septum - not by choice - but in the fury of his assailant's surprise attack.

The pedestrian received a series of traumatic injuries - not by choice - but as a result of the car jumping the curb.

A lover receives a love letter - not by choice - but in gladness.

Receive means a thing that unavoidably came in from a source to a recipient - receive is not a choice like accept - receive just happens.

This is funny you talk about the word of god but ignore it. Receive in the is in the active voice in John 1:12

posting instead english uses of a passive receive

Go to Parallel Greek

Strong's Greek English Morphology 3745 [e] ὅσοι hosoi As many as RelPro-NMP 1161 [e] δὲ de however Conj 2983 [e] ἔλαβον elabon received V-AIA-3P

it is a verb, active, indicative, third person, plural

active voice


WHAT IS ITS VOICE?

A verb is in the active voice if its subject is active, that is to say if it does the action. All verbs in the active voice end in either “-ω” or “-ώ” (the second one has an accent).

"RECEIVE" DEFINITION BY DICTIONARY:

1. TRANSITIVE VERB When you receive something, you get it after someone gives it to you or sends it to you. (Collins COBUILD English Usage (c) HarperCollins Publishers 1992, 2004, 2011, 2012)

There is a keyword in the definition, which is "after".

You make the elementary mistake of trying to define a greek word by the definition of an english word

An appeal to the industry standard lexicon reveals

λαμβάνω

e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b; 13:20a,


Did you fail to see J 1:12 there

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 464.


other works

to welcome — to receive someone, as into one’s house. Related Topic: Welcome.

. to receive (cognitive) — to accept as true or valid.

Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

2983 λαμβάνω [lambano /lam·ban·o/] v. A prolonged form of a primary verb, which is use only as an alternate in certain tenses; TDNT 4:5; TDNTA 495; GK 3284; 263 occurrences; AV translates as “receive” 133 times, “take” 106 times, “have” three times, “catch” three times, not translated once, and translated miscellaneously 17 times. 1 to take. 1A to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it. 1A1 to take up a thing to be carried. 1A2 to take upon one’s self. 1B to take in order to carry away. 1B1 without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away. 1C to take what is one’s own, to take to one’s self, to make one’s own. 1C1 to claim, procure, for one’s self. 1C1A to associate with one’s self as companion, attendant. 1C2 of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend. 1C3 to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud. 1C4 to take to one’s self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one’s self. 1C5 catch at, reach after, strive to obtain. 1C6 to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute). 1D to take. 1D1 to admit, receive. 1D2 to receive what is offered. 1D3 not to refuse or reject. 1D4 to receive a person, give him access to one’s self,. 1D41 to regard any one’s power, rank, external circumstances

James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).

btw even the english word receives carries a meaning of

1. To accept as authoritative, true, or accurate, believing in something1.

receive definition - Bing

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Why do you post deceptive truncated word meaning

The Greek word ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive) lexicon definition is "receive", and the specific instance of ἔλαβον used by the Apostle John in John 1:12 is an active indicative aorist verb in the third person; therefore, the word ἔλαβον conveys the active concept of "joyfully" by the recipient of "receive" with the "receive" being initiated and caused by the the source, not the recipient, but truly God is the cause (John 1:12-13), so John conveys "joyfully receive" is the active meaning for ἔλαβον.

Wrong it is in the active voice. Once again ignorance of Greek grammar leads you astray

In the active voice it is the subject doing the action

That would be the many who receive him

Hello

In the Greek lexicon etymology, "to be seized by" is found for ἔλαβον (Strong's 2983 - lambano/elabon - to take, receive).

"RECEIVE" USAGE IN SCRIPTURE:

The Apostle John wrote "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

The Apostle John wrote receiving Christ is a result of being born of God in John 1:12-13.

Nope all who receive Christ that is believe on his name obtain that right

John 1:12–13 (ESV) — 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

what it means to receive Christ is defined for us right in the verse

in this context it means to believe



The term ἔλαβον (elabon, did receive), a cognate of παρέλαβον (parelabon, received) in 1:11, is parallel to πιστεύω (pisteuō, believe; cf. 5:43–44) (Moloney 1998: 38; Schnackenburg 1990: 1.261). To “receive him” means to entrust oneself to Jesus, to acknowledge his claims, and to confess him (Carson 1991: 125–26). The grammatical construction uses a pendent nominative, with the following clause referring back to it with a personal pronoun (Wallace 1996: 52; Barrett 1978: 163). John 1:12–13 strikes the balance between human responsibility (“to receive,” “to believe”) and divine sovereignty (“born of God”). The expression “believe in the name” of Jesus is found only in the Johannine writings (cf. John 2:23; 3:18; 1 John 3:23; 5:13) (Hawthorne, ISBE 3:480–83). In 1:7, “believing” has already been identified as the purpose of John’s testimony to Jesus as “the light.” Now, believing—the present participle may denote continual belief (Wallace 1996: 621)—is said to be “in his [Jesus’] name” (equated with “receiving” him). On one level, believing in “the name” of Jesus is nothing other than believing in Jesus (3:18) (R. Brown 1966: 11). Baker exegetical commentary

we see this same right grant here

Galatians 3:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Neither context, lexical or commentary data agrees with your claims which appear to be supported only by your own assumptions

 

[Kermos]

He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son (the Apostle Paul, Colossians 1:13).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE FATHER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

 

[TomL]

He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son (the Apostle Paul, Colossians 1:13).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in the affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE THE FATHER OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST!!!

And being sovereign he can determine to save those who believe

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

And being sovereign he can determine to save those who believe

And being sovereign, he can decide who will be the believing ones.

 

[civic]

And being sovereign, he can decide who will be the believing ones.

Nope God doesn’t force Himself that’s unloving and showing favoritism

Next

 

[brightfame52]

And being sovereign he can determine to save those who believe

Believing is the fruit of regeneration.

 

[brightfame52]

And being sovereign he can determine to save those who believe

Therefore, the believing of John 3:14-16 is the result of having been born of the Spirit John 3:8, so we believe through Grace Acts 18:27