Above I bolded the words of the Father Himself that said to the Son, Thy throne, O God.
It is that, the Father just confirm that His Son is God. Don't you believe the Father's words?
All Claims of The Son's Deity
- Thread starter Johann
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It is that, the Father just confirm that His Son is God. Don't you believe the Father's words?
101G
Active Member
Greeting,
101G just have one question, "is this not the same one person, the Father and Son, The LORD, (all caps), and the Lord?
the reason why 101G ask, Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
LORD here, (all caps), is, H3068 יְהוָה Yhvah (yeh-vaw') n/p.
יְהוָֹה Yhovah (yeh-ho-vaw')
יְהוֹ Yhow (yeh-ho') [as a prefix]
1. (meaning) the self-Existent or Eternal, the I AM.
2. (person) Yahweh (Yehvah), Jewish national name of God.
3. (anglicized) Jehovah.
4. (as a name prefix) Yeho-.
5. (As expressed in Hebraic Koine Greek) ἐγώ εἰμί, I AM (literally: I myself, I am).
[from H1961]
KJV: Jehovah, the Lord.
Root(s): H1961
Compare: H3050, H3069
See also: G1510
and the Lord, H113 אָדוֹן 'adown (aw-done') n-m.
אָדֹן 'adon (aw-done') [shortened]
1. sovereign (i.e. controller, human or divine).
2. lord.
{also used as a prefix for names}
[from an unused root (meaning to rule)]
KJV: lord, master, owner.
Compare: H136
See also: H1777
Take Note of definition #1... "divine" now this, the same "Lord" at the The LORD right.
Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."
Lord here in verse 5 the same Lord in verse 1.
Lord: H136 אֲדֹנָי 'Adonay (ad-o-noy') n-m.
1. (meaning) Lord (used as a proper name of God only).
2. (person) Adonai, The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel” - see Exodus 5:1 and 120 other occurrences).
[am emphatic form of H113]
KJV: (my) Lord.
Root(s): H113
Compare: H3068, H1167, H1168
See also: G2962
the EMPHATIC form of H113? we suggest you look up what EMPHATIC means.
101G.
Peterlag
Active Member
God is not calling Jesus God. Hebrews 1:8 is a quote from Psalms that says "Thy throne, O God."
Hebrews 1:8 is an almost exact quotation from the Septuagint version of Psalm 45:6, which itself was a very good translation of the Hebrew text of Psalm 45:6, and Hebrews 1:9 is from the Septuagint of Psalm 45:7. The theme of Hebrews 1 centers around the Father’s rule and elevation of the Son over the rest of creation. God spoke through the prophets, and then through His Son, who He appointed heir of all things and who is now seated at God’s right hand as second in command under God.
The God of the Son—anointed him and set him above his companions, such that the Son now sits on God’s right hand. Hebrews exalts the Son, and in so doing exalts the Father. But in contrast to what Trinitarians say, Hebrews 1:8 (and thus Psalm 45:6) does not call Jesus “God” and does not support the Trinity. To see that fully, one must study Psalm 45. Upon examination, Psalm 45 does not support the Trinity, so when it is quoted in Hebrews 1:8 then that quotation does not support the Trinity either. The Jews read Psalm 45 for centuries and never concluded that the Messiah would be “God in the flesh” or somehow be part of a Triune God.
Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Psalms 45:6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Runningman
Active Member
And the forever and ever throne of Solomon is in 2 Samuel 7:14-16 and Psalm 45:6. The Jews didn't believe Solomon is God who sits on the throne forever. "God" has different usages in Hebrews language and culture, it's not always a reference to literal deity. When the writer of Hebrews 1:8 applied Psalm 45:6 to Jesus then they weren't thinking that Solomon is God Almighty, so the idea of being God Almighty doesn't transfer to Jesus.
Read more of the context and it will be obvious that the one they are talking about is a lesser being than God who needed to be anointed above his companions by his God. God Almighty doesn't have companions to be anointed above right?
Hebrews 1
9You have loved righteousness
and hated wickedness;
therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
above Your companions with the oil of joy.
101G
Active Member
Pete, greeting.
one question for you, "is the Lord Jesus the ARM of God?" yes or no.
101G
You may quote Old Testament verses to support the forever and ever throne of Solomon, but the fact is that it is not really a forever and ever throne as it didn't arrived in the New Testament. Again, the Almighty God the Father had said to the Son, "Your throne O, God." Don't you believe the Almighty God the Father's words?
Hebrews 1
You may quote Old Testament verses to support the forever and ever throne of Solomon, but the fact is that it is not really a forever and ever throne as it didn't arrived in the New Testament. Again, the Almighty God the Father had said to the Son, "Your throne O, God." Don't you believe the Almighty God the Father's words?
The verse never speaks about someone as lesser being than God, just don't add words.
The first "God" in that verse refers to Jesus just like verse 8, the second "God" refer to the Father.
Above Your companions or associates, that is to mean that He is above all who sustain the kingly office. He would be more exalted than all other kings as to mean that He was the most exalted of all.
You quote Hebrews 1:8, do the Father did not say to the Son, "Your throne, O God?" To whom did the Father said, "O God?"
Runningman
Active Member
There are different thrones in different senses.
The first sense of Jesus' throne is at the right hand of God, but that is not a forever throne because it's a temporary reign as the New Testament says:
Matthew 22
44‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand
until I put Your enemies
under Your feet.”’
And Jesus' throne is not the same throne as God's throne, which is also in the New Testament:
Hebrews 12
2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
The only eternal throne Jesus is said to have is similar to that of Solomon's in Psalm 45:6 and 2 Samuel 7:14-16. It's just over the house of Jacob.
Luke 1
31Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”
All in all, Jesus isn't on the eternal throne of God, but rather possess a human throne that was previously possessed by King David. Now Jesus has David's throne.
wow. this is a good example of distinguishing metonymy from direct application of a word. That is a common weakness of the hyperliteralist unitarians. They cannot recognize subtly in a text. Hebrews 12:2 refers a bit more in a literal sense, at least in the imagery portrayed. Luke 1:31 is a metonym referring to the reign or rule that David held. So in Luke 1 we do not find David's physical seat and thus distinct from the Heb 12:2 sense.
The related error is taking a word in one context and applying its contextual meaning to places where that word is used in a totally different context. So, for example, "faith" in one place can refer to trust toward God where, in another place, can refer to the set of beliefs.
Anyhow. Thanks for this example misinterpretation that we are thus able to help you avoid in the future.
Runningman
Active Member
??
The verses I just provided describe Jesus as temporarily at the right hand of God, hence it says "until." The only throne in the Bible that is said to be an eternal throne for Jesus is the same exact throne David and his Father Solomon before him, who also had eternal thrones.
I have no idea how you make any sense out of the Bible if you don't actually believe any of it. Everything the Bible says you reinterpret it until it's not even what the Bible says in the first place. Shameful.
Really? You are making so many common bible interpretation errors and then using those interpretations to ridicule me. I'm helping you but you refuse basic instruction.
Someone else shared that Jesus is not sitting at a throne next to God but is on the same throne.
You also fail in the sense of Jesus potentially having some distinct reigns. There is certainly his reign over the whole earth but there can be a distinct reign over Jacob. I suspect this point is true but I have not thoroughly checked it out. But I doubt that you have investigated anything beyond proof texting to promote your ideas.
With your many errors, I hope no one comes to depend on you for teaching on the bible.
I do not believe someone who glues unrelated texts together to make their arguments. I have pointed out the problems involving lack of attention to aspects like metonymy and of using words in one context to misinterpret the word used in another context. I will also repeat this text that I just posted in response to the other response you just gave:
Really. You are making so many common bible interpretation errors and then using those to ridicule me? I'm helping you but you refuse basic instruction.
Someone else shared that Jesus is not sitting at a throne next to God but is on the same throne.
You also fail in the sense of Jesus potentially having some distinct reigns. There is certainly his reign over the whole earth but there can be a distinct reign over Jacob. I suspect this point is true but I have not thoroughly checked it out. But I doubt that you have investigated anything beyond proof texting to promote your ideas.
With your many errors, I hope no one comes to depend on you for teaching on the bible.
Runningman
Active Member
Sitting at God's right hand "until" is not a description of an eternal throne. That is a temporary throne. So you have utterly failed to make any progress in claiming Jesus is on the eternal throne of God.
Since Hebrews 1:8 is a reference to the eternal throne of Solomon in Psalm 45:6, then the throne being discussed is the eternal throne of David's lineage, which includes Solomon, and now Jesus after he was born. Jesus is a human king on a king's throne, not God on God's throne.
Runningman
Active Member
Blah blah blah. Put up some scripture about Jesus being on the eternal throne of God then or you lost the debate. Good luck! (spoiler: there is no scripture about Jesus being on God's throne)
Becoming human does not remove Jesus as God. You just cannot put the pieces together correctly. Again you miss metonymy. You miss metaphor. You generalize the meaning of a word in order to misinterpret the same word in another context. Those are common errors of the interpretation process.
Also, Matt 22:44 does not limit Christ Jesus's reign. It just shows that God will put the enemies under his feet. I'm not sure what you expect happens after that situation. Again, the idea is simply the God is bringing forth victory for his Son. What else would you expect? maybe just lose the battles? You just need to apply some common sense here.
Duh. I offer this again. Of course you reject the scriptures
Daniel 7:13–14 (ESV)
13“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him.
14And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion. When we use the metonyn of "throne" then everything fits together to those who follow Christ.
Peterlag
Active Member
The Father did not say to the son "Your throne, O God." It's a quote from Psalms.
101G
Active Member
Run, are you actually saying that there is a Physical chair/Throne in heaven ... next to another throne on the right side of it? 101G hope you do not believe that. there is no actual physical throne/Chair in heaven...... to actually, or physical,ly to sit on. my God if one believe that ... Lord help us all. sitting is not a Physical act. it's an a anthropomorphism. as the sitting KING, he, the Lord Jesus, has all power. as with a setting priest, (which the Lord Jesus is), meaning he is FINISH from his work vs a standing priest who still have work to do. sitting on a throne simply means in symbolic language, that someone is in Power/Authority. there are no big lazy boys chairs .... with cup holders in heaven.
Remember people Revelation is signified.......
101G.
Runningman
Active Member
You have a very weak interpretation of the Bible. Phrases like "Becoming human does not remove Jesus as God..." are not supported by Scripture. You introduce metaphor where the authors of the Bible plainly meant what that Jesus has a temporary right at the right hand of God.
Not only did Jesus explicit state that he is temporarily at the right hand of God in Matthew 22:44, but so did Paul. Paul took it a step further, though, and taught that Jesus will be eternally subordinate to God. The teaches of Jesus and Paul are in line with Unitarianism, a temporary reign of a human at the right hand of God who is on the throne of king David.
1 Corinthians 15
24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.
Runningman
Active Member
This is the throne of David. There are no other eternal thrones mentioned in the Bible in relation to Jesus. You can't answer my question because you don't have any Scripture.
Luke 1
31Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”
