All Claims of The Son's Deity

[Runningman]

Run, are you actually saying that there is a Physical chair/Throne in heaven ... next to another throne on the right side of it? 101G hope you do not believe that. there is no actual physical throne/Chair in heaven...... to actually, or physical,ly to sit on. my God if one believe that ... Lord help us all. sitting is not a Physical act. it's an a anthropomorphism. as the sitting KING, he, the Lord Jesus, has all power. as with a setting priest, (which the Lord Jesus is), meaning he is FINISH from his work vs a standing priest who still have work to do. sitting on a throne simply means in symbolic language, that someone is in Power/Authority. there are no big lazy boys chairs .... with cup holders in heaven.
Remember people Revelation is signified.......

101G.

There aren't literal physical thrones in heaven. The earth isn't literally a footstool for God's feet. I wasn't suggesting that, not sure how you thought I was talking about things like that. So do you know what the word "until" means or does it completely evade you like it has @mikesw ?

Sometimes I wonder what it's like to interact with you people in real life. If someone you knew said, "I am going to the supermarket until 5 o'clock." Would you expect them to be gone eternally to the supermarket or would you expect their time at the supermarket to end at 5 o'clock?

 

[Capbook]

There are different thrones in different senses.

The first sense of Jesus' throne is at the right hand of God, but that is not a forever throne because it's a temporary reign as the New Testament says:

Matthew 22​

44‘The Lord said to my Lord,​

“Sit at My right hand​

until I put Your enemies​

under Your feet.”’​

And Jesus' throne is not the same throne as God's throne, which is also in the New Testament:

Hebrews 12​

2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.​

The only eternal throne Jesus is said to have is similar to that of Solomon's in Psalm 45:6 and 2 Samuel 7:14-16. It's just over the house of Jacob.

Luke 1​

31Behold, you will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to give Him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, 33and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!”​

All in all, Jesus isn't on the eternal throne of God, but rather possess a human throne that was previously possessed by King David. Now Jesus has David's throne.

Yes, Jesus have a throne that is forever and ever. (Heb 1:8) It is just that you don't believe the Almighty God the Father's words.
That throne is for the God the Son, understanding what the Almighty God the Father said, "regarding the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."
Also, Luke 1:33 speaks of the throne that will reign the house of Jacob forever. Does a human throne exist forever to you?
Jesus' kingdom will never end while David's kingdom ended in the Old Testament. Do you believe that Jesus' kingdom still existed today or not?

 

[Capbook]

The Father did not say to the son "Your throne, O God." It's a quote from Psalms.

Do Heb 1:8 didn't say that?
Classic Jews interpret the "God" in Psa 45:6 as it refer to the Jewish Messiah.
That means that the Messiah they are still waiting is God.
If you believe that Jesus is not the Christ or the Messiah, then maybe you are correct in your interpretation.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, Jesus have a throne that is forever and ever. (Heb 1:8) It is just that you don't believe the Almighty God the Father's words.
That throne is for the God the Son, understanding what the Almighty God the Father said, "regarding the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."
Also, Luke 1:33 speaks of the throne that will reign the house of Jacob forever. Does a human throne exist forever to you?
Jesus' kingdom will never end while David's kingdom ended in the Old Testament. Do you believe that Jesus' kingdom still existed today or not?

The psalmist wasn't writing about God or Jesus in Psalm 45:6. The context is about a human king with a queen. God nor Jesus have a queen according to anything in the Bible nor do they look on women with lust as Psalm 45 says of the king. Sometimes humans are called god in the Bible. I think you're being thrown off by the word god because the translators and publishers printed it with an uppercase G and your understanding of words in Hebrews culture is extremely shallow and one dimensional. There is no indication that the writer of Hebrews confused a human king with being God.

Did you read more of the context? What does Hebrews 1:9 say?

 

[Runningman]

Do Heb 1:8 didn't say that?
Classic Jews interpret the "God" in Psa 45:6 as it refer to the Jewish Messiah.
That means that the Messiah they are still waiting is God.
If you believe that Jesus is not the Christ or the Messiah, then maybe you are correct in your interpretation.

I think you are just making things up or repeating bad arguments you heard from somewhere. A messiah in Jewish culture is not God. A messiah is someone who is anointed by God, which is what the word messiah means. Of all of the messiah in the Bible, Jesus is but one of them. Have you ever used a concordance, Google, or AI? Do some digging, ask a lot of questions, you'll find that the Levitical priests and prophets are messiah, too. Orthodox Jews know that messiahs are not God.

 

[Capbook]

I think you are just making things up or repeating bad arguments you heard from somewhere. A messiah in Jewish culture is not God. A messiah is someone who is anointed by God, which is what the word messiah means. Of all of the messiah in the Bible, Jesus is but one of them. Have you ever used a concordance, Google, or AI? Do some digging, ask a lot of questions, you'll find that the Levitical priests and prophets are messiah, too. Orthodox Jews know that messiahs are not God.

I quote a neutral ground source, not mine or your own interpretation. See what Wikipedia says about Psa 45:6, Classical Jews and even scholars interpret the "God" in that verse as referred the the Jewish Messiah.

It might be that you read the text as, "Your throne, O man" to that, you may have the right reason to interpret it as referred to human. And pretending that the throne is not forever and ever.

Even verse 3 of Psalms 45, speaks of the Mighty One, the Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6.

According to classical Jewish sources, Psalm 45 refers to the Jewish Messiah. According to Metzudot, a classical Jewish commentary, the king mentioned in verse 2 is the Jewish Messiah.

Christian scholars frequently interpret the psalm as a Messianic prophecy. Henry explains the prophecy as referring to Jesus as both the future king and a bridegroom of the church. In Hebrews 1:8–9, verses 6–7 of this psalm are quoted as allusions to Jesus.

Psalm 45 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Psa 45:3 Strap Your sword on Your thigh, Mighty One, In Your splendor and majesty!
Isa 9:6 For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

 

[Peterlag]

Do Heb 1:8 didn't say that?
Classic Jews interpret the "God" in Psa 45:6 as it refer to the Jewish Messiah.
That means that the Messiah they are still waiting is God.
If you believe that Jesus is not the Christ or the Messiah, then maybe you are correct in your interpretation.

Jesus is the Messiah and the Christ. He is not God. In Hebrews it's quoted referring to Jesus having the use of that throne.

 

[Runningman]

I quote a neutral ground source, not mine or your own interpretation. See what Wikipedia says about Psa 45:6, Classical Jews and even scholars interpret the "God" in that verse as referred the the Jewish Messiah.

It might be that you read the text as, "Your throne, O man" to that, you may have the right reason to interpret it as referred to human. And pretending that the throne is not forever and ever.

Even verse 3 of Psalms 45, speaks of the Mighty One, the Mighty God in Isaiah 9:6.

According to classical Jewish sources, Psalm 45 refers to the Jewish Messiah. According to Metzudot, a classical Jewish commentary, the king mentioned in verse 2 is the Jewish Messiah.

Christian scholars frequently interpret the psalm as a Messianic prophecy. Henry explains the prophecy as referring to Jesus as both the future king and a bridegroom of the church. In Hebrews 1:8–9, verses 6–7 of this psalm are quoted as allusions to Jesus.

Psalm 45 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Psa 45:3 Strap Your sword on Your thigh, Mighty One, In Your splendor and majesty!
Isa 9:6 For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Since you are using Wikipedia, saying it is a neutral ground source, then I will also use Wikipedia. Source at the bottom.

The Wikipedia article on Psalm 45 says, "In the 19th century, Franz Delitzsch argued that the poem was written on the occasion of Jehoram of Judah's marriage to Athaliah; John Calvin and Alexander Kirkpatrick both maintained that it referred rather to the marriage of Solomon with an Egyptian princess."

So we have some well-known Trinitarian theologians in agreement that Psalm 45 is about king Solomon because Solomon is the most likely candidate. King Solomon had a thing for foreign (non-Jewish) women and there is no other king that Psalm 45 may be talking about.

So Jews would not have meant to say that king Solomon is Lord God Almighty. Therefore, Psalm 45:6 is not a messianic prophecy nor does it transfer deity to Jesus when it is applied to Jesus. The word "elohim" can mean God or god, a judge, a king, magistrate, etc. It is often applied to regularly humans throughout the Bible, just like Solomon for example.

So a deeper look at Hebrew poetry, context, and words reveals that Hebrews 1:8 is not an argument for the deity of Jesus. Also, as I said, Hebrews 1:9 and Psalm 45:7 eliminate any possibility of your interpretation being correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalm_45

 

[101G]

There aren't literal physical thrones in heaven. The earth isn't literally a footstool for God's feet. I wasn't suggesting that, not sure how you thought I was talking about things like that. So do you know what the word "until" means or does it completely evade you like it has @mikesw ?

Sometimes I wonder what it's like to interact with you people in real life. If someone you knew said, "I am going to the supermarket until 5 o'clock." Would you expect them to be gone eternally to the supermarket or would you expect their time at the supermarket to end at 5 o'clock?

GINOLJC, to all
Thank God you know this Whew! sadly, some don't. but glade to see that you're knowledgeable in that area, keep up the good work.

101G.

 

[civic]

There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that the Father is God to be saved.

Next fallacy

 

[civic]

Above I bolded the words of the Father Himself that said to the Son, Thy throne, O God.
It is that, the Father just confirm that His Son is God. Don't you believe the Father's words?

Ditto

 

[101G]

Not only did Jesus explicit state that he is temporarily at the right hand of God in Matthew 22:44, but so did Paul. Paul took it a step further, though, and taught that Jesus will be eternally subordinate to God. The teaches of Jesus and Paul are in line with Unitarianism, a temporary reign of a human at the right hand of God who is on the throne of king David.

1 Corinthians 15
24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “God has put everything under His feet.” Now when it says that everything has been put under Him, this clearly does not include the One who put everything under Him. 28And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.

not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this,

"The subjection of Christ within God"​

1 Corinthians 15:27 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all".

SUBJECT: G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) v. According to Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English. the Greek word here, G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso, this word is used as a verb, and not a noun. (that will alert one quickly). as a verb one can quickly see or understand what subject means here in context.
a. put within, b. will. let's look at a. put within and understand this revelation. according to the second definition of subject in the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary as a verb, it means 2. To put under or within the power of. (there is our revelation, “within” within the power of). lets back this up with our second understanding. G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) as a verb which means 1. to subordinate
2. (reflexively) to obey
[from G5259 and G5021]
KJV: be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.
please notice, the KJV can translate subject, G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso, as be under obedience, which bring us to our second understanding. lets see this in scripture, Matthew 26:42 " He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done”. now here is the revelation. the Lord Jesus is God “OWN” arm. scripture, Isaiah 63:5 " And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me”. so being his “OWN” arm it is through, or “within” the agency of the Lord Jesus Christ that his, (GOD), OWN “will” is done, hence the obedience. this is proven out in the definition of G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso itself. the definition also states from G5259 and G5021, lets see what G5259 ὑπό hupo
(hoop-oh') states,
1.under
2.(with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through)
3.(with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)) In the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially, covertly or moderately.
[a primary preposition]
KJV: among, by, from, in, of, under, with

examine definition #2 above carefully, it said, when used as a verb. there is our conformation, the agency or means,“through”. and “through” is synonyms with “WITHIN”. so when G5259 is use in VERB form, meaning with a verb as in “BE” subject as here in 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 then it is understood to be used as the “agency or means, through”. other words Isaiah 63:5 is totally correct and on point when God said, " And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me”. the power is in, or within God “own” arm, which the Lord Jesus the Christ is, “God’s own arm. or within God's own POWER. so, he, the Lord Jesus is not Subject as UNDER Authority from someone else, no that’s when the verb BE is used with Subject. but not here, which is the case, "WITHIN" the POWER, and he Jesus as Lord Glorified, has all power.

all that is needed, is the Holy Spirit, (the Revelator) and an old English dictionary like the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary. the Holy Spirit will enable us, or give us the ability to root out words and find out their meaning to understand the old English language used at that time when the bible was written. now let get the clear understanding, verse 28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself “be” subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all". so, it is "WITHIN" the Lord Jesus himself, that the work of God is complete, as said in the verse (1 Corinthians 15:27 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.") BINGO.

by having the revelator and an old English dictionary, one can give clarity to the word of God in context.

101G.

 

[101G]

@civic @Peterlag and @Capbook,
is not the Lord, Jesus, the Father? supportive Scripture,
2 Corinthians 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" 2 Corinthians 6:15 "And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?"(2 Corinthians 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2 Corinthians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,"2 Corinthians 6:18 "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

"And will be a Father unto you"..... Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

for all those who say, "Jesus will be a Father". then post bible book chapter, and verse where in the bible that there are two "FATHERS".

101G.

 

[Runningman]

not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this,

"The subjection of Christ within God"​

1 Corinthians 15:27 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all".

SUBJECT: G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) v. According to Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English. the Greek word here, G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso, this word is used as a verb, and not a noun. (that will alert one quickly). as a verb one can quickly see or understand what subject means here in context.
a. put within, b. will. let's look at a. put within and understand this revelation. according to the second definition of subject in the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary as a verb, it means 2. To put under or within the power of. (there is our revelation, “within” within the power of). lets back this up with our second understanding. G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so) as a verb which means 1. to subordinate
2. (reflexively) to obey
[from G5259 and G5021]
KJV: be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.
please notice, the KJV can translate subject, G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso, as be under obedience, which bring us to our second understanding. lets see this in scripture, Matthew 26:42 " He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done”. now here is the revelation. the Lord Jesus is God “OWN” arm. scripture, Isaiah 63:5 " And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me”. so being his “OWN” arm it is through, or “within” the agency of the Lord Jesus Christ that his, (GOD), OWN “will” is done, hence the obedience. this is proven out in the definition of G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotasso itself. the definition also states from G5259 and G5021, lets see what G5259 ὑπό hupo
(hoop-oh') states,
1.under
2.(with the genitive case) of place (beneath), or with verbs (the agency or means, through)
3.(with the accusative case) of place (whither (underneath) or where (below) or time (when (at)) In the comparative, it retains the same general applications, especially of inferior position or condition, and specially, covertly or moderately.
[a primary preposition]
KJV: among, by, from, in, of, under, with

examine definition #2 above carefully, it said, when used as a verb. there is our conformation, the agency or means,“through”. and “through” is synonyms with “WITHIN”. so when G5259 is use in VERB form, meaning with a verb as in “BE” subject as here in 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 then it is understood to be used as the “agency or means, through”. other words Isaiah 63:5 is totally correct and on point when God said, " And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me”. the power is in, or within God “own” arm, which the Lord Jesus the Christ is, “God’s own arm. or within God's own POWER. so, he, the Lord Jesus is not Subject as UNDER Authority from someone else, no that’s when the verb BE is used with Subject. but not here, which is the case, "WITHIN" the POWER, and he Jesus as Lord Glorified, has all power.

all that is needed, is the Holy Spirit, (the Revelator) and an old English dictionary like the Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary. the Holy Spirit will enable us, or give us the ability to root out words and find out their meaning to understand the old English language used at that time when the bible was written. now let get the clear understanding, verse 28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself “be” subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all". so, it is "WITHIN" the Lord Jesus himself, that the work of God is complete, as said in the verse (1 Corinthians 15:27 "For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."1 Corinthians 15:28 "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.") BINGO.

by having the revelator and an old English dictionary, one can give clarity to the word of God in context.

101G.

That there are numerous places in the Bible where Jesus is subordinate to God while on earth and even after being taken to heaven is good evidence that Jesus is a subordinate figure to God. So that's what I go with.

For example, Jesus receives orders from YHWH after being taken to heaven as a human. Psalm 110:1, Matthew 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42–43, Acts 2:34–35, and Hebrews 1:13. This demonstrates that Christians don't believe that Jesus is equal to God, aside from the fact the Jesus explicitly denied equality with God in John 14:28 and Paul did as well in Philippians 2:5-8.

I also might add, the earliest proto-Trinitarians believed Jesus was subordinate and not equal to God. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus of Lyons, Tertullian, Origen, and many other well-known "early church fathers" were closer to being Unitarian than actual Trinitarians as a result. Trinitarianism is something that slowly developed over centuries until it become something one may recognize as somewhat similar to modern day Trinitarianism. However, Christian just follow the teachings of Jesus and his disciples instead.

 

[Peterlag]

There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that the Father is God to be saved.

Next fallacy

I did not say anything about being saved. I said...

There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

 

[civic]

I did not say anything about being saved. I said...

There's no verse in the Bible that says we should believe or confess that Jesus is God.

There is no verse in the Bible that says you need to confess only the Father is God.

Next fallacy

 

[Runningman]

There is no verse in the Bible that says you need to confess only the Father is God.

Next fallacy

Knowing the Father is the only true God (John 17:3) implies confessing the Father is the only true God according to John.

One cannot deny the Father is the only true God and be a Christian.

1 John 2
23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

 

[civic]

Knowing the Father is the only true God (John 17:3) implies confessing the Father is the only true God according to John.

One cannot deny the Father is the only true God and be a Christian.

1 John 2
23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

Like I said it doesn’t say what I asked and you guys demand of Jesus.

I exposed the double standards

 

[Runningman]

Like I said it doesn’t say what I asked and you guys dams d of Jesus.

I exposed the double standards

If you deny the Father then you are not confessing the Father. Yes, the Bible does teach that one must confess the Father and the Son also. So who are the Father and Son? The Father is the only true God and Jesus is the Son who the Father sent according to John 17:3. Couldn't be any clearer. I hope this is important to you and not just a game of debate you like to play.

1 John 2
22Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

 

[Peterlag]

There is no verse in the Bible that says you need to confess only the Father is God.

Next fallacy

Why would there be since Father and God is the same creature. It would make no sense to say we should believe Peterlag is Perterlag.