All Claims of The Son's Deity

[mikesw]

"The doctrine of the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine... it's the productof theological reflection." - The Christian Doctrine of God Trinitarian. E. Brunner, 1949, p. 236.

The lack of recognition of the Trinity by contrast is the lack of reflection on scripture.

“Trinity is not a biblical doctrine" - New Bible Dictionary, J. Douglas, F. Bruce, 1982, p. 1298.

Like other posts by Peterlag, this is likely just saying there is no verse that say God exists in triune form. We have covered this type of stuff. Here is a quote from the 1962 version page 1299.
"Scripture does not give us a fully formulated doctrine of the Trinity, but it contains all the elements out of which theology has constructed the doctrine"
Thus we have further abuse by a unitarian in sharing quotes about the Trinity.

“Scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the Old or the New Testament” - The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, 1995, p. 564.

Uh. This means the unitarians should reject the Roman Catholic view and now confess the Triune God of scripture. The reality is that the quote likely just refers to finding verses that says "trinity."

“The Bible has no statements or speculations concerning a trinitary deity." - Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 12, p. 383, 1979.

"Holy Trinity, In Christian doctrine, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible. It is a doctrine formulated in the early church to interpret the way God revealed himself, first to Israel, then in Jesus as Saviour, and finally as Holy Spirit, preserver of the church."

Holy Trinity summary | Britannica

Holy Trinity, In Christian doctrine, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons.

www.britannica.com

So we have another half-truth ("lie") by the unitarians.

“Three coequal partners in the Godhead cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the Bible. It's important to avoid reading the Trinity into places where it does not appear." - Oxford Companion to the Bible, Bruce Metzger, M. Coogan, p. 782-3.

We covered this before. This it not denying the Triune God but just saying not to be over-zealous detecting it everywhere. The atheist just wants to deny that this is the message here.

“The doctrine of the Trinity is not present in biblical thought... it goes beyond, and even distorts, what the Bible says about God.” - A Contemporary Interpretation of the Trinity - God in Three Persons: Professor M. Erickson, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary,p. 12, 20.

Erickson seems to hold to the Triune God but has a different model of it.

Erickson approvingly cites Pannenberg, who speaks
of the self-distinction amongst the members of the Trinity, and refers to each as a center of
action.22 Like Pannenberg, Erickson believes that in the Trinity “there is a distinctness of
consciousness capable of originating thoughts and relationships among the members of the
Trinity.”
Questioning the Explanatory Power of a Thoroughly EgalitarianQuestioning the Explanatory Power of a Thoroughly Egalitarian Social Model of the Trinity: A Case Study in Millard EricksonSocial Model of the Trinity:

I guess the Unitarian is now ready to simply consider a different model of the Trinity. I was sort of inviting that before.

“The belief (in a Trinity-God) was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." -Dictionary of the Bible, 1995, (trinitarian) J. Mckenzie, p. 899.

“The doctrine of the Trinity was formulated in the post-biblical period." - Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1985.

“In the New Testament there is no direct suggestion of a doctrineof the Trinity." - An Encyclopedia of Religion, V. Ferm (ed.), 1945, p. 344.

“No passage of Scripture discusses the threeness of God." - The New International Version. Disciples Study Bible, p. 173, note for Mt. 3:16.

“The Bible does not state that there is one God who exists in three persons” - Basic Theology, Professor C. Ryrie, p. 89.

“The Bible does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity” - Christian Doctrine, Professor S. Guthrie, Columbia Theological Seminary, 1994,p. 92.

“The doctrine of the Trinity cannot be justified on the basis of Scripture. Indeed it's hard to imagine Jesus speaking in such terms" - An Outline of Biblical Theology, Professor M. Burrows, Yale Divinity School, p. 81.

“The doctrine of God as existing in three persons and one substance is not demonstrable by scriptural proofs." - Hastings Dictionary of theBible, 1898.

“There is in the Old Testament no indication of interior distinctions in the God-head. And there is no doctrine of the Trinity in the NewTestament” - The Known Bible and its Defense, Reverend M. Hembre, 1933, p. 25.

The above is from volume one of a two volume paper called...

You should not follow a fool in his folly.

Sleight Of Mind
by: Steven Blake

People following this list are following half-truths which is a kinder term for "lies."

We hardly have to examine all the quotes to know the unitarian is being dishonest.

 

[mikesw]

I've debunked the theory that an eternal throne means someone is God. It was easy, too. All I needed to do is show where the Bible explicitly refers to a human's throne as one that is eternal. I think @Capbook actually agrees with me too.

Really? You think Solomon is reigning over Israel right now. That goes with belief in the Easter Bunny.

You go to extreme depths to deny Christ Jesus as God. That is not a good path to take.

We already see the half-truths (lies) espoused by the unitarian that Peterlag follows see: #Half Truths Debunked

 

[Runningman]

The lack of recognition of the Trinity by contrast is the lack of reflection on scripture.

Like other posts by Peterlag, this is likely just saying there is no verse that say God exists in triune form. We have covered this type of stuff. Here is a quote from the 1962 version page 1299.
"Scripture does not give us a fully formulated doctrine of the Trinity, but it contains all the elements out of which theology has constructed the doctrine"
Thus we have further abuse by a unitarian in sharing quotes about the Trinity.

Uh. This means the unitarians should reject the Roman Catholic view and now confess the Triune God of scripture. The reality is that the quote likely just refers to finding verses that says "trinity."


"Holy Trinity, In Christian doctrine, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible. It is a doctrine formulated in the early church to interpret the way God revealed himself, first to Israel, then in Jesus as Saviour, and finally as Holy Spirit, preserver of the church."

Holy Trinity summary | Britannica

Holy Trinity, In Christian doctrine, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons.

www.britannica.com

So we have another half-truth ("lie") by the unitarians.


We covered this before. This it not denying the Triune God but just saying not to be over-zealous detecting it everywhere. The atheist just wants to deny that this is the message here.

Erickson seems to hold to the Triune God but has a different model of it.

Erickson approvingly cites Pannenberg, who speaks
of the self-distinction amongst the members of the Trinity, and refers to each as a center of
action.22 Like Pannenberg, Erickson believes that in the Trinity “there is a distinctness of
consciousness capable of originating thoughts and relationships among the members of the
Trinity.”
Questioning the Explanatory Power of a Thoroughly EgalitarianQuestioning the Explanatory Power of a Thoroughly Egalitarian Social Model of the Trinity: A Case Study in Millard EricksonSocial Model of the Trinity:

I guess the Unitarian is now ready to simply consider a different model of the Trinity. I was sort of inviting that before.


You should not follow a fool in his folly.

People following this list are following half-truths which is a kinder term for "lies."

We hardly have to examine all the quotes to know the unitarian is being dishonest.

The trinity isn't in the Bible. There are no statements where anyone demonstrated they believed God is a trinity or hinted they may have thought God is plural. They they said anything like "they" or "them" or described God Almighty as anyone other than the Father, who is is Himself a Holy Spirit, and Jesus' God.

 

[Runningman]

Really? You think Solomon is reigning over Israel right now. That goes with belief in the Easter Bunny.

You go to extreme depths to deny Christ Jesus as God. That is not a good path to take.

We already see the half-truths (lies) espoused by the unitarian that Peterlag follows see: #Half Truths Debunked

Staying within the confines of the Bible is not any sort of "extreme depth" as you say. You are the extremist here, just so we are all clear what is happening. You are saying there is a trinity god when there is not one at all in the first place, not in Christianity anyway. In Christianity, the one God is the Father, YHWH, who created alone. There are no others. The Bible says these things explicitly.

 

[mikesw]

The trinity isn't in the Bible. There are no statements where anyone demonstrated they believed God is a trinity or hinted they may have thought God is plural. They they said anything like "they" or "them" or described God Almighty as anyone other than the Father, who is is Himself a Holy Spirit, and Jesus' God.

If you have another way of explaining both Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God apart from the Triune God, please explain it.

John 1:1 shows the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

You have to explain Jesus's pre-existence without denying it as just prophecy.

You have to deny Thomas calling him God

What more do you need?

 

[mikesw]

Staying within the confines of the Bible is not any sort of "extreme depth" as you say. You are the extremist here, just so we are all clear what is happening. You are saying there is a trinity god when there is not one at all in the first place, not in Christianity anyway. In Christianity, the one God is the Father, YHWH, who created alone. There are no others. The Bible says these things explicitly.

It is of course your effort to use loaded language. By this I mean that you refuse the English language so you can avoid the discussions that reveal the heresy of denying Jesus as God.
If you have another way of explaining both Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God apart from the Triune God, please explain it.

John 1:1 shows the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

You have to explain Jesus's pre-existence without denying it as just prophecy.

You have to deny Thomas calling him God

What more do you need?

 

[Peterlag]

The lack of recognition of the Trinity by contrast is the lack of reflection on scripture.

Like other posts by Peterlag, this is likely just saying there is no verse that say God exists in triune form. We have covered this type of stuff. Here is a quote from the 1962 version page 1299.
"Scripture does not give us a fully formulated doctrine of the Trinity, but it contains all the elements out of which theology has constructed the doctrine"
Thus we have further abuse by a unitarian in sharing quotes about the Trinity.

Uh. This means the unitarians should reject the Roman Catholic view and now confess the Triune God of scripture. The reality is that the quote likely just refers to finding verses that says "trinity."


"Holy Trinity, In Christian doctrine, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible. It is a doctrine formulated in the early church to interpret the way God revealed himself, first to Israel, then in Jesus as Saviour, and finally as Holy Spirit, preserver of the church."

Holy Trinity summary | Britannica

Holy Trinity, In Christian doctrine, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons.

www.britannica.com

So we have another half-truth ("lie") by the unitarians.


We covered this before. This it not denying the Triune God but just saying not to be over-zealous detecting it everywhere. The atheist just wants to deny that this is the message here.

Erickson seems to hold to the Triune God but has a different model of it.

Erickson approvingly cites Pannenberg, who speaks
of the self-distinction amongst the members of the Trinity, and refers to each as a center of
action.22 Like Pannenberg, Erickson believes that in the Trinity “there is a distinctness of
consciousness capable of originating thoughts and relationships among the members of the
Trinity.”
Questioning the Explanatory Power of a Thoroughly EgalitarianQuestioning the Explanatory Power of a Thoroughly Egalitarian Social Model of the Trinity: A Case Study in Millard EricksonSocial Model of the Trinity:

I guess the Unitarian is now ready to simply consider a different model of the Trinity. I was sort of inviting that before.


You should not follow a fool in his folly.

People following this list are following half-truths which is a kinder term for "lies."

We hardly have to examine all the quotes to know the unitarian is being dishonest.

This is what I read when I click on your link that you say is another half-truth ("lie") by the unitarians...

Holy Trinity, In Christian doctrine, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible. It is a doctrine formulated in the early church to interpret the way God revealed himself, first to Israel, then in Jesus as Saviour, and finally as Holy Spirit, preserver of the church. The doctrine of the Trinity developed in the early centuries of the church and was explicitly stated at the Council of Nicaea in 325.

 

[Runningman]

It is of course your effort to use loaded language. By this I mean that you refuse the English language so you can avoid the discussions that reveal the heresy of denying Jesus as God.
If you have another way of explaining both Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God apart from the Triune God, please explain it.

John 1:1 shows the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

You have to explain Jesus's pre-existence without denying it as just prophecy.

You have to deny Thomas calling him God

What more do you need?

Ah, so you're getting hung up on other statements about the word "god" contrary to the Bible explicitly defining the only true God as the Father elsewhere. The word "god" doesn't always refer to God Almighty in the Bible, Hebrew culture, or even English. For example, the devil is called god too. You should know that the devil isn't God Almighty, I hope. So there is no first cause trinity explanation or example in the Bible to attach your reasoning to. What you are saying is entirely unprecedented from a Biblical perspective.

Do you understand that the word god doesn't always refer to God Almighty?

 

[mikesw]

This is what I read when I click on your link that you say is another half-truth ("lie") by the unitarians...

Holy Trinity, In Christian doctrine, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible. It is a doctrine formulated in the early church to interpret the way God revealed himself, first to Israel, then in Jesus as Saviour, and finally as Holy Spirit, preserver of the church. The doctrine of the Trinity developed in the early centuries of the church and was explicitly stated at the Council of Nicaea in 325.

a word does not have to be in the Bible to convey a truth. I try to remind you to get beyond your unitarian pocket dictionary and get into real discussions.

 

[Runningman]

If you have another way of explaining both Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God apart from the Triune God, please explain it.

John 1:1 shows the Word was with God and the Word was God.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

You have to explain Jesus's pre-existence without denying it as just prophecy.

You have to deny Thomas calling him God

What more do you need?

Yes, I have tried explaining it to you before and you just automatically rejected what the Bible says. I am more than happy to try it again. Maybe I am coming at this from the wrong angle. I need to just show you what the Bible says.

How did John define the Word in 1 John 1:1-3?

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[mikesw]

Ah, so you're getting hung up on other statements about the word "god" contrary to the Bible explicitly defining the only true God as the Father elsewhere. The word "god" doesn't always refer to God Almighty in the Bible, Hebrew culture, or even English. For example, the devil is called god too. You should know that the devil isn't God Almighty, I hope. So there is no first cause trinity explanation or example in the Bible to attach your reasoning to. What you are saying is entirely unprecedented from a Biblical perspective.

Do you understand that the word god doesn't always refer to God Almighty?

okay. Do you want to see Jesus as of the only God or as one of many gods? You get your choice. I think you have been wavering for a pantheon and a unitarian god recently.

 

[mikesw]

Yes, I have tried explaining it to you before and you just automatically rejected what the Bible says. I am more than happy to try it again. Maybe I am coming at this from the wrong angle. I need to just show you what the Bible says.

How did John define the Word in 1 John 1:1-3?

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.

I have to keep reminding you that a word like "word" in one passage does not carry forth everything of the use of that word (such as "word") in every passage. You are falling for a rookie mistake there. Sorry you have to re-learn this lesson every week.

 

[Peterlag]

a word does not have to be in the Bible to convey a truth. I try to remind you to get beyond your unitarian pocket dictionary and get into real discussions.

This was what I read from your link. Not my pocket dictionary. Your link from Britannica Encyclopedia

Holy Trinity, In Christian doctrine, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible. It is a doctrine formulated in the early church to interpret the way God revealed himself, first to Israel, then in Jesus as Saviour, and finally as Holy Spirit, preserver of the church. The doctrine of the Trinity developed in the early centuries of the church and was explicitly stated at the Council of Nicaea in 325.

 

[Runningman]

okay. Do you want to see Jesus as of the only God or as one of many gods? You get your choice. I think you have been wavering for a pantheon and a unitarian god recently.

Humans are called god sometimes like Moses in Exodus 7:1 or the king in Psalm 45:6. Dozens of other examples. Why can't Jesus be a god in the same sense as they are without being God Almighty? Jesus is never called God Almighty in the Bible. Jesus is never said to be in a "trinity godhead" in the Bible. Nothing identifies Jesus as equal to God Almighty.

 

[Runningman]

I have to keep reminding you that a word like "word" in one passage does not carry forth everything of the use of that word (such as "word") in every passage. You are falling for a rookie mistake there. Sorry you have to re-learn this lesson every week.

So you're baiting and switching. Did you read 1 John 1:1-3? It says the Word is the thing there.

 

[Runningman]

This was what I read from your link. Not my pocket dictionary. Your link from Britannica Encyclopedia

Holy Trinity, In Christian doctrine, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible. It is a doctrine formulated in the early church to interpret the way God revealed himself, first to Israel, then in Jesus as Saviour, and finally as Holy Spirit, preserver of the church. The doctrine of the Trinity developed in the early centuries of the church and was explicitly stated at the Council of Nicaea in 325.

At least Britannica Encyclopedia acknowledges the trinity is a post-Biblical philosophy that was formulated in the 4th century.

 

[Capbook]

I would comment if I knew what your point is.

My point is Jesus is God referred in Psa 45:6.
Classic Jews interpret the "God" in Psa 45:6 as referred to their Jewish Messiah, but I believe they're still waiting for Him.
While God the Father revealed to Peter that Jesus is the Messiah, the one called "God" in Psa 45:6, Whose throne is forever and ever.

 

[Capbook]

I don't think it appears in the NT. I don't see how that is strictly important. Why do you ask?

It is important because that "forever and ever throne" appears in Hebrews 1:8.
It would mean that Psa 45:6 interpretation to refer to king Solomon, I believe is incorrect.
Classic Jews proves it.

 

[mikesw]

This was what I read from your link. Not my pocket dictionary. Your link from Britannica Encyclopedia

Holy Trinity, In Christian doctrine, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God in three persons. The word Trinity does not appear in the Bible. It is a doctrine formulated in the early church to interpret the way God revealed himself, first to Israel, then in Jesus as Saviour, and finally as Holy Spirit, preserver of the church. The doctrine of the Trinity developed in the early centuries of the church and was explicitly stated at the Council of Nicaea in 325.

Great. The Trinity is building on the testimony of scripture. We ought not disregard that testimony of Jesus as God and likewise the Holy Spirit. It is not a pagan doctrine since this was known from the beginning and uses scripture from the OT and NT. Not sure why anyone would disregard those sources. Nor is there reason to fear the word "trinity" since it just means three. The word or number three appears in scripture and in the unitarian pocket dictionary I would assume.

 

[Capbook]

I've debunked the theory that an eternal throne means someone is God. It was easy, too. All I needed to do is show where the Bible explicitly refers to a human's throne as one that is eternal. I think @Capbook actually agrees with me too.

No, I didn't agree with you, as you accept that no verse in the New Testament that mentioned the forever and ever throne of King Solomon.