Educating unitarians on biblical worship

[Runningman]

Lets see

These are prayers

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

That refers to what Jesus would do for them on earth while he was standing next to them. He later taught that after he was taken to heaven to not ask him for anything.

What's your answer for Jesus contradicting your theory?

John 16
23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

It is in the name of Christ the request is directed to and he answers

And that he promises to responds to it above

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

This is clearly to the lord Jesus.

How you can deny this is rather incredible

Prove it's a prayer then. It isn't a prayer to God if it is. No one prays to people who aren't God in the Bible.

Stephen provides proof that Jesus isn't God. God and Jesus aren't in the same place. Jesus was seen physically standing on two legs at the right hand position of God.

Acts 7
54On hearing this, the members of the Sanhedrin were enraged, and they gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

Prayer

2 Corinthians 12:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

I have already challenged this. Prove the Lord is Jesus in this context keeping in mind that Jesus isn't the only Lord.

Acts 3
20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

Romans 10:12–13 (NASB 95) — 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

This OT verse refers to YHWH not Jesus.

As was previously noted the cfollowing verses

Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Jesus is Lord, but he isn't God. God raised Jesus, not Jesus raised Jesus.

show Jesus is the lord to be called on

The Gospels portray individuals approaching Jesus with requests during His earthly ministry; when He granted these petitions, His divine identity was revealed. After His ascension, prayer became the means by which believers receive spiritual nourishment from Him.

No.

The Lord is YHWH in these contexts, but Jesus is a human who was certified by God. God worked through Jesus, Jesus is a servant, not God. Your interpretation is errant.

Acts 2
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.

 

[TomL]

Lets see

These are prayers

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Runningman

That refers to what Jesus would do for them on earth while he was standing next to them. He later taught that after he was taken to heaven to not ask him for anything.

What's your answer for Jesus contradicting your theory?

John 16
23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

First Jesus speaks of when he goes to the father.

John 14:12–14 (NASB 95) — 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Second

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

This is clearly to the lord Jesus.

How you can deny this is rather incredible

He is not on earth and the prayer is to receive his spirit and forgive the sins of those acting against him

Runningman
Prove it's a prayer then. It isn't a prayer to God if it is. No one prays to people who aren't God in the Bible.

Well Jesus is God as multiple verses state

But let's see reception of one's spirit and forgiveness of sin can be addressed to what type of being?

Runningman
Stephen provides proof that Jesus isn't God. God and Jesus aren't in the same place. Jesus was seen physically standing on two legs at the right hand position of God.

That would be God the father and Jesus God the son standing next to each other

Acts 7
54On hearing this, the members of the Sanhedrin were enraged, and they gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

Prayer

2 Corinthians 12:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Runningman
I have already challenged this. Prove the Lord is Jesus in this context keeping in mind that Jesus isn't the only Lord.

Acts 3
20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

Context

2 Corinthians 12:7–10 (NASB 95) — 7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

Romans 10:12–13 (NASB 95) — 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Runningman

This OT verse refers to YHWH not Jesus.

The New Testament refers to Christ, and in the Old Testament we can read about Yahweh speaking of Yahweh, as I have posted many times.

The context however identifies Christ as Lord

Romans 10:8–13 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

As was previously noted the cfollowing verses

Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Runningman
Jesus is Lord, but he isn't God. God raised Jesus, not Jesus raised Jesus.

Um you just denied the lord in the context was Jesus. Are you now admitting your error?

show Jesus is the lord to be called on

The Gospels portray individuals approaching Jesus with requests during His earthly ministry; when He granted these petitions, His divine identity was revealed. After His ascension, prayer became the means by which believers receive spiritual nourishment from Him.

Runningman

No.

The Lord is YHWH in these contexts, but Jesus is a human who was certified by God. God worked through Jesus, Jesus is a servant, not God. Your interpretation is errant.

Acts 2
21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’
22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.

The lord to be called on is Jesus

Acts 4:8–12 (NASB 95) — 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people, 9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
And as was seen
Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Finally the text

Acts 2:20–36 (NASB 95) — 20 ‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME. 21 ‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’ 22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 For David says of Him, ‘I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. 26 ‘THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; 27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. 28 ‘YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.’ 29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, 35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.” ’ 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

 

[TomL]

Uh no. You are in clear error. From my perspective, your talking points are weak because all you have are arguments about your opinions. The sin sacrifice of Jesus was completed on the cross, accessed by faith. Scripture teaches to confess sins to the Father going forward.

Who is the "He" referring to highlighted in red below?

1 John 1
5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.

Um in text under discussion

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

It is Jesus who is requested to forgive sin

In your post you denied verses which identify Christ as Lord

Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

You are in clear error here.

I asked

Can you deny it was done by believers?

Can you deny Jesus directed He be asked and promised to do such?

That supernatural elements were involved?

Reception of a persons spirit, the forgiveness of sin, supernatural healing, ultimate personal salvation

What evidence can you offer this is not prayer and that if asked in his name he will do it

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

or that

In that day they will ask in his name.

So do you admit one can pray to Jesus for removal of sin?

What evidence can you supply that denies it was asked of Christ by Stephen?

Concerning this forgiveness of sin

1 John 1:7–10 (NASB 95) — 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Can you deny it is through the blood of Christ

or the multiple verses which point to Christ forgiving sin and forgiveness being in Christ

Luke 7:48–50 (NASB 95) — 48 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49 Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Luke 5:20–24Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins have been forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,”—He said to the paralytic—“I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.”

Ephesians 1:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Mark 2:5– And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—

PS From my perspective, your talking points are weak because all you have are arguments that ignore the verses and context of scripture.

 

[Runningman]

Um in text under discussion

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

It is Jesus who is requested to forgive sin

In your post you denied verses which identify Christ as Lord

Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

You are in clear error here.

I asked

Can you deny it was done by believers?

Can you deny Jesus directed He be asked and promised to do such?

That supernatural elements were involved?

Reception of a persons spirit, the forgiveness of sin, supernatural healing, ultimate personal salvation

What evidence can you offer this is not prayer and that if asked in his name he will do it

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

or that

In that day they will ask in his name.

So do you admit one can pray to Jesus for removal of sin?

What evidence can you supply that denies it was asked of Christ by Stephen?

Concerning this forgiveness of sin

1 John 1:7–10 (NASB 95) — 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Can you deny it is through the blood of Christ

or the multiple verses which point to Christ forgiving sin and forgiveness being in Christ

Luke 7:48–50 (NASB 95) — 48 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49 Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Luke 5:20–24Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins have been forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,”—He said to the paralytic—“I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.”

Ephesians 1:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Mark 2:5– And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—

PS From my perspective, your talking points are weak because all you have are arguments that ignore the verses and context of scripture.

You are in clear error.

There is no record of anyone confessing their sins to Jesus or Jesus actively forgiving anyone's sins after he was taken to heaven. Only God forgives sins. Yes, it's true that God did give Jesus authority to forgive sins in Matthew 9:6-8 while on earth, but there is no mention of this being something Jesus is continually doing in the Bible.

Sin forgiveness comes from the Father after Jesus' ascension.

The God who wipes out sins is the Lord, not the same Lord as Jesus:

Acts 3
18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

There are a lot more examples of this but I will begin with one. Ah, I see you are learning something you've never seen before. Maybe this is the ticket to get you to realize that Jesus isn't himself God.

 

[TomL]

You are in clear error.

There is no record of anyone confessing their sins to Jesus or Jesus actively forgiving anyone's sins after he was taken to heaven. Only God forgives sins. Yes, it's true that God did give Jesus authority to forgive sins in Matthew 9:6-8 while on earth, but there is no mention of this being something Jesus is continually doing in the Bible.

Sin forgiveness comes from the Father after Jesus' ascension.

The God who wipes out sins is the Lord, not the same Lord as Jesus:

Acts 3
18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

There are a lot more examples of this but I will begin with one. Ah, I see you are learning something you've never seen before. Maybe this is the ticket to get you to realize that Jesus isn't himself God.

In text under discussion

Stephen is praying for the forgiveness of sin of those persecuting him

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

It is Jesus who is requested to forgive sin

In your post you denied verses which identify Christ as Lord

Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

You are in clear error here.

I asked

Can you deny it was done by believers?

Can you deny Jesus directed He be asked and promised to do such?

That supernatural elements were involved?

Reception of a persons spirit, the forgiveness of sin, supernatural healing, ultimate personal salvation

What evidence can you offer this is not prayer and that if asked in his name he will do it

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

or that

In that day they will ask in his name.

So do you admit one can pray to Jesus for removal of sin?

What evidence can you supply that denies it was asked of Christ by Stephen?

Concerning this forgiveness of sin

1 John 1:7–10 (NASB 95) — 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

He was not on earth here when sin is confessed and he will forgive

Can you deny it is through the blood of Christ and that it is he who will forgive?

or the multiple verses which point to Christ forgiving sin and forgiveness being in Christ

Luke 7:48–50 (NASB 95) — 48 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49 Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Luke 5:20–24Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins have been forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,”—He said to the paralytic—“I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.”

Ephesians 1:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Mark 2:5– And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—

John 5:22–23 (NASB 95) — 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.




PS From my perspective, your talking points are weak because all you have are arguments that ignore the verses and context of scripture.

 

[Runningman]

In text under discussion

Stephen is praying for the forgiveness of sin of those persecuting him

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

It is Jesus who is requested to forgive sin

In your post you denied verses which identify Christ as Lord

Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

You are in clear error here.

I asked

Can you deny it was done by believers?

Can you deny Jesus directed He be asked and promised to do such?

That supernatural elements were involved?

Reception of a persons spirit, the forgiveness of sin, supernatural healing, ultimate personal salvation

What evidence can you offer this is not prayer and that if asked in his name he will do it

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

or that

In that day they will ask in his name.

So do you admit one can pray to Jesus for removal of sin?

What evidence can you supply that denies it was asked of Christ by Stephen?

Concerning this forgiveness of sin

1 John 1:7–10 (NASB 95) — 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

He was not on earth here when sin is confessed and he will forgive

Can you deny it is through the blood of Christ and that it is he who will forgive?

or the multiple verses which point to Christ forgiving sin and forgiveness being in Christ

Luke 7:48–50 (NASB 95) — 48 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49 Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Luke 5:20–24Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins have been forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,”—He said to the paralytic—“I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.”

Ephesians 1:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Mark 2:5– And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—

John 5:22–23 (NASB 95) — 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.




PS From my perspective, your talking points are weak because all you have are arguments that ignore the verses and context of scripture.

Go all the way back to the start of your long reply.

You have not proven what Stephen said to be prescriptive. What Stephen said is descriptive, but not something that is prescribed anywhere in the Bible. For one, the Bible doesn't tell anyone to pray to Jesus. For two, we don't even know if Stephen had actually seen a vision or not, but maybe he did. No one else seems to have saw it except him.

1. Stephen did not confess his or their sins
2. Stephen did not ask for forgiveness

So your talking points built on your premise don't follow to a sound conclusion.

What is prescriptive, what others are teaching and telling others to do, is to pray to the Father for forgiveness, not Jesus:

Acts 8​

20But Peter replied, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in our ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord. Perhaps He will forgive you for the intent of your heart.​

​

1John 1​

9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

You seem confused about what Jesus is doing right now. He is not said to be acting as God and forgiving sins. Jesus is said to be a high priest and mediator between God and mankind, interceding for mankind, but forgiveness and confession of sin comes from the Father. All things come from the Father only.

Hebrews 4​

15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.​

​

1 Timothy 2​

5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

All things from God the Father. All things through Jesus, not God, but a high priest, mediator, interceder:

1 Corinthians 8​

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.​

 

[TomL]

Go all the way back to the start of your long reply.

You have not proven what Stephen said to be prescriptive. What Stephen said is descriptive, but not something that is prescribed anywhere in the Bible. For one, the Bible doesn't tell anyone to pray to Jesus. For two, we don't even know if Stephen had actually seen a vision or not, but maybe he did. No one else seems to have saw it except him.

1. Stephen did not confess his or their sins
2. Stephen did not ask for forgiveness

But Stephen did ask for forgiveness

In text under discussion

Stephen is praying for the forgiveness of sin of those persecuting him

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
and the sin is particularly defined as this sin that is the sin they waged against him

It is Jesus who is requested to forgive sin

In your post you denied verses which identify Christ as Lord

Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

You are in clear error here.

I asked

Can you deny it was done by believers?

Can you deny Jesus directed He be asked and promised to do such?

That supernatural elements were involved?

Reception of a persons spirit, the forgiveness of sin, supernatural healing, ultimate personal salvation

What evidence can you offer this is not prayer and that if asked in his name he will do it

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

or that

In that day they will ask in his name.

So do you admit one can pray to Jesus for removal of sin?

What evidence can you supply that denies it was asked of Christ by Stephen?

Concerning this forgiveness of sin

1 John 1:7–10 (NASB 95) — 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

He was not on earth here when sin is confessed and he will forgive

Can you deny it is through the blood of Christ and that it is he who will forgive?

or the multiple verses which point to Christ forgiving sin and forgiveness being in Christ

Luke 7:48–50 (NASB 95) — 48 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” 49 Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?” 50 And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Luke 5:20–24Seeing their faith, He said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven you.” The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?” But Jesus, aware of their reasonings, answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins have been forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But, so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins,”—He said to the paralytic—“I say to you, get up, and pick up your stretcher and go home.”

Ephesians 1:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight

Acts 10:43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”

Mark 2:5– And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?” Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—

John 5:22–23 (NASB 95) — 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.




PS From my perspective, your talking points are weak because all you have are arguments that ignore the verses and context of scripture.

So your talking points built on your premise don't follow to a sound conclusion.

To the contrary not only was Jesus asked to forgive sin but the sin was defined contrary to your claim

Acts 8​

20But Peter replied, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in our ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent, therefore, of your wickedness, and pray to the Lord. Perhaps He will forgive you for the intent of your heart.​

um Prayer is to the Lord

Acts 8:22–24 (NASB 95) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.” 24 But Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

You seem confused about what Jesus is doing right now. He is not said to be acting as God and forgiving sins. Jesus is said to be a high priest and mediator between God and mankind, interceding for mankind, but forgiveness and confession of sin comes from the Father. All things come from the Father only.

Hebrews 4​

15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.​

Nothing there about being unable to forgive sin

Had you forgotten

Mark 2:5–7 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Luke 7:48–49 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?”
Matt 9:2–6 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” And some of the scribes said to themselves, “This fellow blasphemes.” And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.”

​

1 Timothy 2​

5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

All things from God the Father. All things through Jesus, not God, but a high priest, mediator, interceder:

1 Corinthians 8​

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.​

First regarding

1 Corinthians 8​

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.​

we see but one lord through whom all things came, contrary to your theology

second other scriptures

Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 3:13–17 (NASB 95) — 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.

 

[civic]

Runningman






First Jesus speaks of when he goes to the father.

John 14:12–14 (NASB 95) — 12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Second

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

This is clearly to the lord Jesus.

How you can deny this is rather incredible

He is not on earth and the prayer is to receive his spirit and forgive the sins of those acting against him


Well Jesus is God as multiple verses state

But let's see reception of one's spirit and forgiveness of sin can be addressed to what type of being?




That would be God the father and Jesus God the son standing next to each other

Acts 7
54On hearing this, the members of the Sanhedrin were enraged, and they gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”



Context

2 Corinthians 12:7–10 (NASB 95) — 7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.




The New Testament refers to Christ, and in the Old Testament we can read about Yahweh speaking of Yahweh, as I have posted many times.

The context however identifies Christ as Lord

Romans 10:8–13 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”









Um you just denied the lord in the context was Jesus. Are you now admitting your error?





The lord to be called on is Jesus

Acts 4:8–12 (NASB 95) — 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people, 9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
And as was seen
Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Finally the text

Acts 2:20–36 (NASB 95) — 20 ‘THE SUN WILL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND GLORIOUS DAY OF THE LORD SHALL COME. 21 ‘AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.’ 22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. 25 For David says of Him, ‘I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN. 26 ‘THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE; 27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY. 28 ‘YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.’ 29 “Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. 32 This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 34 For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: ‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, 35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.” ’ 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Amen the One/Only Lord a person must confess/ agree with to be saved.

To Him be all glory, honor, power, worship and praise to His Holy Name- the Holy One, Sinless, Perfect, Good , Eternal, Love, etc....

 

[Runningman]

But Stephen did ask for forgiveness

In text under discussion

Stephen is praying for the forgiveness of sin of those persecuting him

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
and the sin is particularly defined as this sin that is the sin they waged against him

Still descriptive of what Stephen alone said, not something prescribed in Scripture.

To the contrary not only was Jesus asked to forgive sin but the sin was defined contrary to your claim



um Prayer is to the Lord

Acts 8:22–24 (NASB 95) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.” 24 But Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

Not the same Lord as Jesus. There is a different Lord who wipes out sins and sends Jesus.

Which Lord sent Jesus Christ?

Acts 3
9Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

Nothing there about being unable to forgive sin

Had you forgotten

Mark 2:5–7 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Luke 7:48–49 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?”
Matt 9:2–6 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” And some of the scribes said to themselves, “This fellow blasphemes.” And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.”






First regarding

1 Corinthians 8​

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.​

we see but one lord through whom all things came, contrary to your theology

second other scriptures

Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 3:13–17 (NASB 95) — 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father

High priests and mediators don't forgive sins. If they could, we wouldn't need God. Can you find any clear examples of anyone teaching people to pray to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins?

 

[civic]

Still descriptive of what Stephen alone said, not something prescribed in Scripture.


Not the same Lord as Jesus. There is a different Lord who wipes out sins and sends Jesus.

Which Lord sent Jesus Christ?

Acts 3
9Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

High priests and mediators don't forgive sins. If they could, we wouldn't need God. Can you find any clear examples of anyone teaching people to pray to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins?

The One Lord/ ONLY Lord is identified as the Son.

next fallacy

as they say you cannot have your cake ( One God who is the Father ) and eat it too at the exclusion. of the Son who is also called God, identified as God in scripture.

hope this helps !!!

 

[TomL]

But Stephen did ask for forgiveness

In text under discussion

Stephen is praying for the forgiveness of sin of those persecuting him

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
and the sin is particularly defined as this sin that is the sin they waged against him

Running man

Still descriptive of what Stephen alone said, not something prescribed in Scripture.

Um we have multiple examples of Jesus forgiving sin

Mark 2:5–7And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Luke 7:48–49Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?”
Matt 9:2–6And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” And some of the scribes said to themselves, “This fellow blasphemes.” And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.”

To the contrary not only was Jesus asked to forgive sin but the sin was defined contrary to your claim



um Prayer is to the Lord

Acts 8:22–24 (NASB 95) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.” 24 But Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

Runningman
Not the same Lord as Jesus. There is a different Lord who wipes out sins and sends Jesus.

Which Lord sent Jesus Christ?

Acts 8:22?

Acts 8:22–24 (NASB 95) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.” 24 But Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

context

Acts 8:14–16 (NASB 95) — 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

context Lord Jesus

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NASB 95) — 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Running man
Acts 3
9Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

The presence of a sent one would be that of Christ's

Nothing there about being unable to forgive sin

Had you forgotten

Mark 2:5–7 And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Luke 7:48–49 Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?”
Matt 9:2–6 And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” And some of the scribes said to themselves, “This fellow blasphemes.” And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.”






First regarding

1 Corinthians 8
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.
we see but one lord through whom all things came, contrary to your theology

second other scriptures

Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 3:13–17 (NASB 95) — 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful. 16 Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God. 17 Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father

runningman

High priests and mediators don't forgive sins. If they could, we wouldn't need God. Can you find any clear examples of anyone teaching people to pray to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins?

Again
Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

 

[civic]

Um we have multiple examples of Jesus forgiving sin

Mark 2:5–7And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”
Luke 7:48–49Then He said to her, “Your sins have been forgiven.” Those who were reclining at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this man who even forgives sins?”
Matt 9:2–6And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” And some of the scribes said to themselves, “This fellow blasphemes.” And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.”






Acts 8:22?

Acts 8:22–24 (NASB 95) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity.” 24 But Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me.”

context

Acts 8:14–16 (NASB 95) — 14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

context Lord Jesus

1 Corinthians 8:6 (NASB 95) — 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.





The presence of a sent one would be that of Christ's





Again
Acts 5:31 He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Amen shout it from the rooftops the Glory that is hidden in Christ and that becomes visible to those granted eyes to see, ears to hear, the spirit to understand.

 

[TomL]

Amen shout it from the rooftops the Glory that is hidden in Christ and that becomes visible to those granted eyes to see, ears to hear, the spirit to understand.

Yes Amen

Rev 5:12–13 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

 

[TomL]

High priests and mediators don't forgive sins. If they could, we wouldn't need God. Can you find any clear examples of anyone teaching people to pray to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins?

Judgment is of the son

John 5:22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

John 5:27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

Acts 10:42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

2 Tim 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Matt 25:31–32“ But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

 

[civic]

Judgment is of the son

John 5:22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

John 5:27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

Acts 10:42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

2 Tim 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Matt 25:31–32“ But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

which proves the distinction between Jesus as the Son of man and all others in that category. Jesus stands alone by Himself as the Divine son of man- the Ancient of Days, the eternal being.

 

[TomL]

which proves the distinction between Jesus as the Son of man and all others in that category. Jesus stands alone by Himself as the Divine son of man- the Ancient of Days, the eternal being.

Amen

 

[TomL]

Jesus as Lord

Luke 2:11for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Phil 2:9–11For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 16:31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Rom 10:9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Jude 25to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

2 Pet 3:18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

1 Thess 5:9For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Acts 2:36“Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

Acts 10:36The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)—

Acts 15:11But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

Rom 6:23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Phil 3:20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

Acts 7:59–60They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

1 Cor 6:11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

John 6:68–69 (NASB 95) — 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69 We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”

Rom 1:3–4concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
Rom 14:9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

1 Cor 8:6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

2 Cor 4:5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake.

1 Tim 6:14–15that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

Rev 19:16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Rev 17:14“These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.”

Praise Jesus - The Lord of Lords

 

[Runningman]

Judgment is of the son

John 5:22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

John 5:27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

Acts 10:42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.
Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

2 Tim 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Matt 25:31–32“ But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

So we have Jesus as a high priest and mediator. Means he isn't God.

 

[TomL]

So we have Jesus as a high priest and mediator. Means he isn't God.

That would be an assumption

The issue here is

Judgment is of the son

John 5:22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

John 5:27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

Acts 10:42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

2 Tim 4:1 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

Rom 2:16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Matt 25:31–32“ But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;

 

[TomL]

So we have Jesus as a high priest and mediator. Means he isn't God.

Here He is God


John 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 (NASB 95) — 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John 20:28 (NASB 95) — 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Matthew 1:23 (NASB 95) — 23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.”

Acts 2:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”

Titus 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

2 Peter 1:1 (NASB 95) — 1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Colossians 2:9 (NASB 95) — 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Isaiah 7:14 (NASB 95) — 14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Isaiah 9:6 (NASB 95) — 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Philippians 2:6 (NASB 95) — 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Revelation 1:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

1 John 5:20 (NASB 95) — 20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.

Hebrews 1:3 (NASB 95) — 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

John 10:30 (NASB 95) — 30 I and the Father are one.”