Educating unitarians on biblical worship

[praise_yeshua]

"You can't worship the Father without the Son." is a statement found no where in the Bible nor something anyone taught.

You are really are "something".

Can you fellowship with God and not be in fellowship with your wife?

You might want to read more......

 

[civic]

"You can't worship the Father without the Son." is a statement found no where in the Bible nor something anyone taught.

You cannot see the Father without the Son.

There is no fellowship with the Father without the Son and vice versa

You cannot know the Father without the Son and vice versa

Jesus words not mine. He declared:

He who has seen Me has seen the Father.

To Glorify the Son is to Glorify the Father and vice versa.
To honor the Son is to honor the Father and vice versa

To pray to the Father is through the Son and vice versa.

To obey the Son is to obey the Father and vice versa

The word of God is the word of the Son and vice versa

next fallacy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You cannot see the Father without the Son.

There is no fellowship with the Father without the Son and vice versa

You cannot know the Father without the Son and vice versa

Jesus words not mine. He declared:

He who has seen Me has seen the Father.

To Glorify the Son is to Glorify the Father and vice versa.
To honor the Son is to honor the Father and vice versa

To pray to the Father is through the Son and vice versa.

To obey the Son is to obey the Father and vice versa

The word of God is the word of the Son and vice versa

next fallacy.

He can't even call upon God while hating his brother.

 

[civic]

"You can't worship the Father without the Son." is a statement found no where in the Bible nor something anyone taught.

The Father saying:

"I'm the only God"

is a statement found nowhere in the bible.

next fallacy

 

[TomL]

2 Cor 4:4

2 Corinthians 4:4 (NASB 95) — 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[Runningman]

Do you believe the son should be worshipped?

Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”
Phil 2:9–11 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.
Matt 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
Matt 14:33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”

Luke 24:52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

Rev 5:12–14 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

I say no because God nor any of the prophets mentioned it as something believers should do. There are Unitarians who do worship and pray to Jesus, but they rightly understand to not do it in context of Jesus being God so no idolatry is committed. I don't do that and I don't judge them for it.

Do you believe that when there are instructions given that the instructions should be followed precisely?

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

 

[Runningman]

Do you deny these are prayer to Jesus?

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

And that he promises to responds to it above

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

2 Corinthians 12:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Romans 10:12–13 (NASB 95) — 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Nothing in the Bible says Jesus was prayed to. You'll not find a single verse that says such. I have a good thread on that already here, I see I need to make it a point to revive that thread and drone on about it for a few weeks. When I have time.

Here's who you should pray to.

Matt 6
6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
7And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
9So then, this is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be Your name.

 

[Runningman]

The Father saying:

"I'm the only God"

is a statement found nowhere in the bible.

next fallacy

The Father explicitly said what you say He did not.

Isaiah 43
10“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and My servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may consider and believe Me
and understand that I am He.
Before Me no god was formed,
and after Me none will come.

Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD, and there is no other;
there is no God but Me.
I will equip you for battle,
though you have not known Me,
6so that all may know,
from where the sun rises to where it sets,
that there is none but Me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

 

[Durg]

John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, the thousands of times God is referred to as a singular person and described as being alone, refutes the trinity.

With the trinity being one of your most fundamental claims about who God is, it is not a minor issue. If God were three persons sharing one essence, it would not be a side doctrine implied through scattered verses. It should be plainly stated with consistency, especially in the gospels and Paul's letters, but no one ever mentioned it or taught about it. No inspired writer ever explains it.

This leads to an unavoidable conclusion. Since the trinity is never taught, described, explained, mentioned, but instead read into the Bible through interpretation rather than extracted directly from the Bible as a teaching, it means that it's not Scripture, but rather your opinion.

Now, I am not saying that will change your beliefs or change your mind. Refuting a doctrine is not the same thing as you changing your mind. When a doctrine is refuted, it means that it has been proven to be wrong, flawed, or false altogether. Beliefs are psychological and emotional; doctrines are logical and textual. Doctrines can be shown to be unscriptural and incoherent even if you continue to hold them. Refuting the trinity does not mean you will abandon it, but it will show that you continue to hold to falsehoods.

Even the most educated Trinitarians would tell you that the Trinity isn't mentioned in any 'one' verse in scripture. It's ASSEMBLED!

 

[TomL]

Nothing in the Bible says Jesus was prayed to. You'll not find a single verse that says such. I have a good thread on that already here, I see I need to make it a point to revive that thread and drone on about it for a few weeks. When I have time.

Here's who you should pray to.

Matt 6
6But when you pray, go into your inner room, shut your door, and pray to your Father, who is unseen. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
7And when you pray, do not babble on like pagans, for they think that by their many words they will be heard. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.
9So then, this is how you should pray:
‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be Your name.

These are prayers

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

It is in the name of Christ the request is directed and he answers

And that he promises to responds to it above

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Prayer

2 Corinthians 12:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Romans 10:12–13 (NASB 95) — 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

The Gospels portray individuals approaching Jesus with requests during His earthly ministry; when He granted these petitions, His divine identity was revealed. After His ascension, prayer became the means by which believers receive spiritual nourishment from Him.

 

[TomL]

I say no because God nor any of the prophets mentioned it as something believers should do. There are Unitarians who do worship and pray to Jesus, but they rightly understand to not do it in context of Jesus being God so no idolatry is committed. I don't do that and I don't judge them for it.

Do you believe that when there are instructions given that the instructions should be followed precisely?

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

Can you deny it was done by believers?

Can you deny Jesus directed He be asked and promised to do such?

That supernatural elements were involved?

Reception of a persons spirit, the forgiveness of sin, supernatural healing, ultimate personal salvation?


John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

And that he promises to responds to it above

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

2 Corinthians 12:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Romans 10:12–13 (NASB 95) — 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

 

[civic]

The Father explicitly said what you say He did not.

Isaiah 43
10“You are My witnesses,” declares the LORD,
“and My servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may consider and believe Me
and understand that I am He.
Before Me no god was formed,
and after Me none will come.

Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD, and there is no other;
there is no God but Me.
I will equip you for battle,
though you have not known Me,
6so that all may know,
from where the sun rises to where it sets,
that there is none but Me;
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

no the " FATHER" is never mentioned in the passages you quoted.

But we do know the bible explicitly declares that that the Son, Jesus Christ is the ONLY LORD, the ONE LORD.

Thanks for proving the Deity of Christ in those passages.

You will soon become a trinitarian quoting all the passages that refute unitarianism.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

Even the most educated Trinitarians would tell you that the Trinity isn't mentioned in any 'one' verse in scripture. It's ASSEMBLED!

neither is the word unitarian.

case closed

next fallacy

 

[Runningman]

These are prayers

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

It is in the name of Christ the request is directed and he answers

And that he promises to responds to it above

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Prayer

2 Corinthians 12:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Romans 10:12–13 (NASB 95) — 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

The Gospels portray individuals approaching Jesus with requests during His earthly ministry; when He granted these petitions, His divine identity was revealed. After His ascension, prayer became the means by which believers receive spiritual nourishment from Him.

The Lord in those context is not Jesus, but rather the Lord is God when it refers to prayer. A different Lord sent Jesus, Jesus isn't the same Lord as God. Furthermore, nothing states Jesus was prayed to in the Bible.

The Lord sent Jesus Christ, so it's a biblical impossibility that Jesus is the Lord they prayed to.

Acts 3
19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

 

[Runningman]

Can you deny it was done by believers?

Can you deny Jesus directed He be asked and promised to do such?

That supernatural elements were involved?

Reception of a persons spirit, the forgiveness of sin, supernatural healing, ultimate personal salvation?

Power, authority, etc given to him by God. He didn't inherently have any of it.

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Refers to a different context, not prayer. Why did Jesus say to not asking him for anything if he wants prayer?

Jesus taught that after his ascension to not ask him for anything, but rather ask the Father:

John 16
23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

25I have spoken these things to you in figures of speech. An hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you this way, but will tell you plainly about the Father. 26In that day you will ask in My name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.

And that he promises to responds to it above

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Yes, Jesus was given authority to forgive sins by God. Did you know that?

Matthew 9
6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” Then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your mat, and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home.

8When the crowds saw this, they were filled with awe and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

2 Corinthians 12:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

This isn't a prayer to Jesus.

Romans 10:12–13 (NASB 95) — 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

This verse is about the Father. YHWH is the Father, not Jesus.

 

[Runningman]

no the " FATHER" is never mentioned in the passages you quoted.

But we do know the bible explicitly declares that that the Son, Jesus Christ is the ONLY LORD, the ONE LORD.

Thanks for proving the Deity of Christ in those passages.

You will soon become a trinitarian quoting all the passages that refute unitarianism.

hope this helps !!!

Bible basics 101 is that God is the Father. There are no others. Of course that's the Father speaking. Scriptural explicitly states the Father is the one and only true God (John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6) So yeah the Father did explicitly state that. Who else would YHWH be from your perspective?

 

[Runningman]

Even the most educated Trinitarians would tell you that the Trinity isn't mentioned in any 'one' verse in scripture. It's ASSEMBLED!

The intellectually honest ones will. I have only ever met one who will admit that.

 

[TomL]

Can you deny it was done by believers?

Can you deny Jesus directed He be asked and promised to do such?

That supernatural elements were involved?

Reception of a persons spirit, the forgiveness of sin, supernatural healing, ultimate personal salvation?

Runningman

Power, authority, etc given to him by God. He didn't inherently have any of it.

That does not really answer my questions

Can you deny it was done by believers?

Can you deny Jesus directed He be asked and promised to do such?

That supernatural elements were involved?

Reception of a persons spirit, the forgiveness of sin, supernatural healing, ultimate personal salvation?

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Runningman
Refers to a different context, not prayer. Why did Jesus say to not asking him for anything if he wants prayer?

Jesus taught that after his ascension to not ask him for anything, but rather ask the Father:

John 16
23In that day you will no longer ask Me anything. Truly, truly, I tell you, whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in My name. Ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.

25I have spoken these things to you in figures of speech. An hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you this way, but will tell you plainly about the Father. 26In that day you will ask in My name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf.

What evidence can you offer this is not prayer and that if asked in his name he will do it

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

or that

In that day they will ask in his name.

And that he promises to responds to it above

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

Runningman

Yes, Jesus was given authority to forgive sins by God. Did you know that?

So you admit one can pray to Jesus for removal of sin

2 Corinthians 12:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Runningman
This isn't a prayer to Jesus.

What evidence can you supply that denies it was asked of Christ?

Romans 10:12–13 (NASB 95) — 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Runninman
This verse is about the Father. YHWH is the Father, not Jesus.

Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

You are in clear error here.

 

[TomL]

The Lord in those context is not Jesus, but rather the Lord is God when it refers to prayer. A different Lord sent Jesus, Jesus isn't the same Lord as God. Furthermore, nothing states Jesus was prayed to in the Bible.

The Lord sent Jesus Christ, so it's a biblical impossibility that Jesus is the Lord they prayed to.

Acts 3
19Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you.

Lets see

These are prayers

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

It is in the name of Christ the request is directed to and he answers

And that he promises to responds to it above

Acts 7:59–60 (NASB 95) — 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.

This is clearly to the lord Jesus.

How you can deny this is rather incredible

Prayer

2 Corinthians 12:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

Romans 10:12–13 (NASB 95) — 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

As was previously noted the cfollowing verses

Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

show Jesus is the lord to be called on

The Gospels portray individuals approaching Jesus with requests during His earthly ministry; when He granted these petitions, His divine identity was revealed. After His ascension, prayer became the means by which believers receive spiritual nourishment from Him.

 

[Runningman]

That does not really answer my questions

Can you deny it was done by believers?

Can you deny Jesus directed He be asked and promised to do such?

That supernatural elements were involved?

Reception of a persons spirit, the forgiveness of sin, supernatural healing, ultimate personal salvation?




What evidence can you offer this is not prayer and that if asked in his name he will do it

John 14:13–14 (NASB 95) — 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

or that

In that day they will ask in his name.






So you admit one can pray to Jesus for removal of sin



What evidence can you supply that denies it was asked of Christ?




Romans 10:8–9 (NASB 95) — 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

You are in clear error here.

Uh no. You are in clear error. From my perspective, your talking points are weak because all you have are arguments about your opinions. The sin sacrifice of Jesus was completed on the cross, accessed by faith. Scripture teaches to confess sins to the Father going forward.

Who is the "He" referring to highlighted in red below?

1 John 1
5And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you: God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.