Acts 22:16 Paul's salvation

[Doug Brents]

So what. They were saved when they believed. Water baptism is a proper act for one saved, showing he has been cleansed from his sin

No, he had not yet believed, because he had not yet heard the Gospel. Paul told him to believe, but believe in what? He had not yet heard the Gospel (according to Scripture), because Paul (after he told him to believe) then preached the Gospel to him. Then he took him and baptized him and that is when he was saved. One is not saved just by believing, but by dying to sin and being raised to new life in Christ during baptism.

Except the many verses which note one is saved upon faith

Your theology must ignore that

I do not ignore any of Scripture. All the verses you point to that only mention "belief/faith" are pointing to the other passages that detail what that faith entails, repentance (Acts 3:19), confession (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.).

 

[Doug Brents]

I was thinking of this.... ! Cor 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

My error

You are correct that he had not baptized more than those three (one of which was a whole family) there in Corinth. But the reason he did not was because he was there to plant the Seed. When a farmer goes into his field in the spring, he is not there to reap a harvest. He is there just to plant the seeds, and then he must wait for the seed to grow before he goes back to reap his harvest. Paul was just there as a planter. Others came behind him to water, weed, cultivate, and then reap the harvest.

 

[MTMattie]

It does not saved "from a bad conscience". Baptism is an appeal to God to give us a new, clean conscience.

No, I do not ignore that passage. That passage corresponds directly to Rom 6 and Col 2 where it says that in baptism (in water) the Holy Spirit does the work of removing our sin and resurrecting us with Christ. So it is by one Spirit that we are made part of the one body during the one baptism (that must include water and human action), and it is in baptism that we drink of the one Spirit.

God told Cornelius that Peter would "speak words to you by which you will be saved". Was he save by just hearing the words? No.
Then the Holy Spirit fell on him in power. Was he saved just by the Holy Spirit giving him tongues and praise? No.
Then Peter ordered that he be baptized (in water) so that he could receive forgiveness of his sins and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Was he saved when he was baptized into Christ? YES! This is when he was saved, not before.

As Peter says in verse 18 above, God granted them "repentance leading to life". Repentance must be started before baptism, and it LEADS TO salvation, it does not follow after, and Cornelius had not yet repented when the Spirit fell on him in tongues and praise.

How can one have the Holy Spirit living within them when they have not been dunked.

 

[MTMattie]

You are correct that he had not baptized more than those three (one of which was a whole family) there in Corinth. But the reason he did not was because he was there to plant the Seed. When a farmer goes into his field in the spring, he is not there to reap a harvest. He is there just to plant the seeds, and then he must wait for the seed to grow before he goes back to reap his harvest. Paul was just there as a planter. Others came behind him to water, weed, cultivate, and then reap the harvest.

I disagree

If it was baptism that saved and not just identifying the believer with the Godhead, Christ, and the church, and an act of obedience, a public testimony, and a spiritual symbol of death, resurrection, and cleansing.... why would Paul not have emphasized it more and done it more.

So what if folks said Paul baptized me iso long as he he did it in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

Billy Graham used that as an excuse saying they needed to go to their own pastors.... yet a lot of his followers had no other pastors....

 

[Doug Brents]

How can one have the Holy Spirit living within them when they have not been dunked.

They cannot. The Holy Spirit comes to reside within us when we are born again, which happens during water baptism (Rom 6:1-7, 1 Pet 3:21).

I disagree

If it was baptism that saved and not just identifying the believer with the Godhead, Christ, and the church, and an act of obedience, a public testimony, and a spiritual symbol of death, resurrection, and cleansing.... why would Paul not have emphasized it more and done it more.

He did do it, all the time. Just one example is that he baptized the Jailer "that same hour of the night". It was an urgent thing that the person be baptized as soon as possible, but in the case of Corinth, he was glad that more people had not come to believe when he first taught them so that his name was not more prevalent in the divisions within that congregation.

So what if folks said Paul baptized me iso long as he he did it in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

Not sure what you are getting at here, but it does not matter who baptizes you, what matters is the name into which you are baptized, the name of the person whom you confess as Lord when you are baptized. If you are not baptized in any name, or if you are baptized in the name of the congregation, or anything other than the name of Jesus Christ, then you just got wet.

Billy Graham used that as an excuse saying they needed to go to their own pastors.... yet a lot of his followers had no other pastors....

I don't really know much about Billy Graham. I have heard of him, certainly, but I have never heard even one of his sermons or read anything he has written. But if he refused to baptize anyone, instead sending them back to their own minister, then he was as wrong as wrong can be, and risked the soul of each person he sent away. There is no evidence in Scripture anywhere of anyone not being baptized as quickly as physically possible. When a Biblical minister of the Word found someone who expressed belief in Jesus, that person was immediately baptized into Christ so that their sins could be washed away (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16).

 

[MTMattie]

I asked:

MTMattie said:

How can one have the Holy Spirit living within them when they have not been dunked.

They cannot. The Holy Spirit comes to reside within us when we are born again, which happens during water baptism (Rom 6:1-7, 1 Pet 3:21).

Still disagree. READ:

Do you have to be baptized to be filled with the Holy Spirit?​

by Matt Slick | Oct 26, 2010 | Questions, The Holy Spirit

No, you do not have to be baptized to be filled with the Holy Spirit. To prove this, all we have to do is look at the Scriptures where the phrase “filled with the Spirit” is used.

• Luke 1:15, “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.”
• Luke 1:41, “When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.”
• Luke 1:67, “And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying…”
• Acts 2:4, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
• Acts 4:8, “Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people,”
• Acts 4:31, “And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.”
• Acts 9:17, “So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
• Acts 13:9, “But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him,”
• Acts 13:52, “And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.”
• Eph 5:18, “And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,”

So, we can see that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit while he was in his mother’s womb. Of course, he had not been baptized at that point. In Luke 1:41 we see that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she had not been baptized either. The same is true with Zacharias in Luke 1:67. In Acts 2:4 people were filled with the Holy Spirit and were not baptized until later on (Acts 2:38).
One of the evidences of being filled with the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues – though speaking in tongues is not a necessary result of being filled with the Holy Spirit. When we look at another set of verses in Acts, we see something very interesting.
“While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days,” (Acts 10:44-48).
It is obvious from the text that the Gentiles had already received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were speaking in tongues before they were baptized. Therefore, the answer is clear. It is not necessary to be baptized in order to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

And

There’s no reason to believe Jesus was only prophesying about the Holy Spirit in John 20:22. It’s reasonable to assume that having first been followers of John, several of the Lord’s disciples had been baptized. But there’s nothing in the Biblical record indicating that they all were, and even those who were did not receive the Holy Spirit at the time. Neither did a baptism precede either the event in the Upper Room or the Day of Pentecost. A literal reading of Ephesians 1:13-14 clearly says the Holy Spirit was sealed within us at the moment of belief. Paul repeated this promise in 2 Cor. 1:21-22 and 2 Cor. 5:5 without mentioning baptism. Saying he thought it would be redundant to mention baptism is putting words in his mouth.

It’s important to remember that in Acts 2 Peter was speaking in the Temple to a Jewish audience who had a different understanding of baptism than we do. They had used baptism (they called it a Mikvah) for centuries as a rite of purification before the Sabbath or a marriage or some other important undertaking. The Church uses baptism as a public declaration of having been born again. So for them it preceded an important change, while for us it follows it.

Also, to say that Jesus did not possess the Holy Spirit before His baptism is tantamount to denying His deity from birth. It would mean that before the baptism He was just an ordinary man. Remember John, who had known Jesus all His life, questioned His need for one. I believe He was being obedient to the Law by taking a mikvah at the outset of His ministry. The sign of the Holy Spirit descending upon Him was to show He was being equipped for ministry and to give an indication of His Father’s pleasure (Matt. 3:13-17).

The Holy Spirit dwells within us from the moment of belief to guide and direct us. But once in a while, He may come upon us in power to equip us for a special task or challenge. This is what happened with Jesus, it’s what happened with the disciples, and it’s what happens with us.

 

[TomL]

No, he had not yet believed, because he had not yet heard the Gospel. Paul told him to believe, but believe in what? He had not yet heard the Gospel (according to Scripture), because Paul (after he told him to believe) then preached the Gospel to him. Then he took him and baptized him and that is when he was saved. One is not saved just by believing, but by dying to sin and being raised to new life in Christ during baptism.

The verse still states

Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

It does not say believe and you will be saved when you are baptized

I do not ignore any of Scripture. All the verses you point to that only mention "belief/faith" are pointing to the other passages that detail what that faith entails, repentance (Acts 3:19), confession (Rom 10:9-10), and baptism (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.).

Of course, you did. Many in fact

PS there is no water Acts 3:19

Acts 3:19 (LEB) — 19 Therefore repent and turn back, so that your sins may be blotted out,

No water in Rom 10:9

Acts 2:38 does not say when they have salvation

And the water did not save Noah and his family, they were saved through the water

 

[TomL]

It does not saved "from a bad conscience". Baptism is an appeal to God to give us a new, clean conscience.

An appeal or answer or pledge

1 Peter 3:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 3:21 (NIV) — 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

No, I do not ignore that passage. That passage corresponds directly to Rom 6 and Col 2 where it says that in baptism (in water) the Holy Spirit does the work of removing our sin and resurrecting us with Christ. So it is by one Spirit that we are made part of the one body during the one baptism (that must include water and human action), and it is in baptism that we drink of the one Spirit.

Sorry there is no mention of water in either Romans 6 or col 2

You are begging the question here

God told Cornelius that Peter would "speak words to you by which you will be saved". Was he save by just hearing the words? No.
Then the Holy Spirit fell on him in power. Was he saved just by the Holy Spirit giving him tongues and praise? No.
Then Peter ordered that he be baptized (in water) so that he could receive forgiveness of his sins and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Was he saved when he was baptized into Christ? YES! This is when he was saved, not before.

Yes words and the spirit himself testified to him and he was baptized en the spirit

By this the Jews knew Cornelius had repentance unto life

before water

Nothing is stated that he had his sins forgiven after water baptism

You are adding your theology to the passage
d

As Peter says in verse 18 above, God granted them "repentance leading to life". Repentance must be started before baptism, and it LEADS TO salvation, it does not follow after, and Cornelius had not yet repented when the Spirit fell on him in tongues and praise.

Sorry but Cornelius had life through the spirit before water

The Spirit not water gives life

 

[TomL]

Tom, we have been over and over this. None of those verses need to say anything about water. I have shown many times that Scripture is very clear that the one baptism in the NT Church is water baptism. And that in several places Scripture says that we are saved during baptism by the working of the Holy Spirit who does so by the power of Jesus' blood. Since that is established, none of these other passages need do more than reference that fact by saying "believe" (which means to have faith).

Yes we have and you just deny the verses

There is no water here

1 Corinthians 12:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

faith, trust in Christ results in one sealed with the holy spirit

Ephesians 1:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

or here

John 3:15 (LEB) — 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.”

John 3:16 (LEB) — 16 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.

John 5:24 (LEB) — 24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:40 (LEB) — 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

John 6:47 (LEB) — 47 Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

Romans 10:9 (LEB) — 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:10 (LEB) — 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Not one of your verses says one cannot be saved without water baptism

and scripture never states water baptism is the only baptism.

You are imposing your theology upon scrtipture and deny the fact Cornelius and his family were baptized en the Spirit

and as well as the fact Paul proclaimed


1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

 

[MTMattie]

Everybody.

Slight side trip but on course with the topic.

For what reason can you explain why Jesus was not more specific with Nicodemus when Nick was confused about baptism?

Jesus' comment to him was
"9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

Why would Nick know about baptisms when he knew about Mikveh which is bot the same thing?

Did Jesus lose an opportunity here or did Jesus decide Nick shpould not know?

 

[Doug Brents]

I asked:

MTMattie said:




Still disagree. READ:

Do you have to be baptized to be filled with the Holy Spirit?​

by Matt Slick | Oct 26, 2010 | Questions, The Holy Spirit
No, you do not have to be baptized to be filled with the Holy Spirit. To prove this, all we have to do is look at the Scriptures where the phrase “filled with the Spirit” is used.

• Luke 1:15, “For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb.”
• Luke 1:41, “When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.”
• Luke 1:67, “And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying…”

All three of these is speaking of the Holy Spirit's empowerment (not the indwelling). And we know this because John 7:39 says that the indwelling of the Spirit was not given until after Jesus was glorified (died and raised to life again).

• Acts 2:4, “And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
• Acts 4:8, “Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people,”
• Acts 4:31, “And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.”
• Acts 9:17, “So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
• Acts 13:9, “But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him,”
• Acts 13:52, “And the disciples were continually filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.”
• Eph 5:18, “And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,”

All of these indicate times when people who already had the indwelling of the Spirit were empowered by Him for a purpose.

So, we can see that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit while he was in his mother’s womb.

Sorry, that was John who was empowered by the Spirit while in his mother's womb (Luke 1:15).

Of course, he had not been baptized at that point. In Luke 1:41 we see that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she had not been baptized either. The same is true with Zacharias in Luke 1:67.

Again, these were empowered by the Spirit, but no one in the world was indwelt by the Spirit until after Jesus was glorified.

In Acts 2:4 people were filled with the Holy Spirit and were not baptized until later on (Acts 2:38).

The people here were already indwelt by the Spirit (John 20:22), and were only empowered by the Spirit. And we don't know if they had already been baptized before this or not. Many were baptized by Jesus disciples long before His death, but we don't know who all the 120 in the upper room were, or when any of them were baptized.

One of the evidences of being filled with the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues – though speaking in tongues is not a necessary result of being filled with the Holy Spirit. When we look at another set of verses in Acts, we see something very interesting.
“While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days,” (Acts 10:44-48).
It is obvious from the text that the Gentiles had already received the gift of the Holy Spirit and were speaking in tongues before they were baptized. Therefore, the answer is clear. It is not necessary to be baptized in order to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Indeed this is interesting, but not for the reason he is trying to get at. Here, the Spirit empowered the Gentiles who were not yet indwelt by the Spirit. They were not yet saved, but they were given the empowerment of tongues and praise. They were saved (and thereby indwelt by the Spirit) when they were baptized in water shortly after they received the empowerment of the Spirit.

And

There’s no reason to believe Jesus was only prophesying about the Holy Spirit in John 20:22. It’s reasonable to assume that having first been followers of John, several of the Lord’s disciples had been baptized. But there’s nothing in the Biblical record indicating that they all were, and even those who were did not receive the Holy Spirit at the time. Neither did a baptism precede either the event in the Upper Room or the Day of Pentecost. A literal reading of Ephesians 1:13-14 clearly says the Holy Spirit was sealed within us at the moment of belief.

What does Biblical belief mean? It means to have faith (trust). According to Heb 11 and James 2:14-26, faith is evidence and substance, it requires action or it is not real. A good example I thought of recently is the scene in the Disney movie Aladdin where Al asks Jasmine, "Do you trust me?", and then held his hand out to her when they were on the top of the roof. If she did not take his hand and jump with him, then she didn't really trust him no matter what she said (and then she would have been caught by the guards much earlier). But if she did trust/have faith in him, then she had to take his hand and jump off the roof with him. Faith without action is meaningless, and will leave us lost. Jesus says that if we trust in Him, then we must surrender to His will, and His will is that we repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), confess Him as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and be baptized (Acts 2:38) in order to receive forgiveness/salvation/the indwelling of the Spirit.

Paul repeated this promise in 2 Cor. 1:21-22 and 2 Cor. 5:5 without mentioning baptism. Saying he thought it would be redundant to mention baptism is putting words in his mouth.

Neither of these passages is talking about what is required to receive salvation. Paul is simply saying that when they were saved they received the Holy Spirit as a pledge, a down payment, a surety of the inheritance we will receive at Judgement.

It’s important to remember that in Acts 2 Peter was speaking in the Temple to a Jewish audience who had a different understanding of baptism than we do.

Peter's speech in Acts 2 is probably not in the Temple. There is no indication in the Text that they moved very far from the upper room in which they were worshiping when the Spirit fell on them. It is probable that they were still standing on the roof of the building of which the upper room was a part (and there is no indication of where in the city that house was located).

They had used baptism (they called it a Mikvah) for centuries as a rite of purification before the Sabbath or a marriage or some other important undertaking. The Church uses baptism as a public declaration of having been born again. So for them it preceded an important change, while for us it follows it.

For them it was a purification rite, and it is still the same for us today. They were becoming ceremonially clean before participating in worship to God. For us, we are becoming purified from sin so that we can be adopted as a child of God and be part of the bride of Christ.

Also, to say that Jesus did not possess the Holy Spirit before His baptism is tantamount to denying His deity from birth. It would mean that before the baptism He was just an ordinary man. Remember John, who had known Jesus all His life, questioned His need for one. I believe He was being obedient to the Law by taking a mikvah at the outset of His ministry. The sign of the Holy Spirit descending upon Him was to show He was being equipped for ministry and to give an indication of His Father’s pleasure (Matt. 3:13-17).

Jesus is a very special case in all respects. He was God from birth, and the Spirit was with Him from birth. Yet the Spirit came down on Him and empowered Him even further at His baptism. Remember, Jesus didn't do any miraculous works by His own power. He did not know anything that the Spirit did not tell Him, and He did not work miracles by His own power. Just as the Apostles could not work miracles without the empowering of the Spirit, Jesus similarly had only the power of any other human, because He had emptied Himself to the point of being like any other person. I am not discounting His divinity here. He was, is, and always has been and will be, God, and He did not empty Himself of His unity with the Father and Holy Spirit, or His authority. But He did empty Himself of the autonomous usage of His power.

The Holy Spirit dwells within us from the moment of belief to guide and direct us.

From the moment of salvation, which happens at baptism, not at the moment of belief.

But once in a while, He may come upon us in power to equip us for a special task or challenge. This is what happened with Jesus, it’s what happened with the disciples, and it’s what happens with us.

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, this is what we see when "the Spirit is poured out upon" people, or when people are "filled with the Holy Spirit". This is the empowerment for a special purpose, not the indwelling of the Spirit which happens at baptism.

 

[MTMattie]

All three of these is speaking of the Holy Spirit's empowerment (not the indwelling). And we know this because John 7:39 says that the indwelling of the Spirit was not given until after Jesus was glorified (died and raised to life again).

All of these indicate times when people who already had the indwelling of the Spirit were empowered by Him for a purpose.

Sorry, that was John who was empowered by the Spirit while in his mother's womb (Luke 1:15).

Again, these were empowered by the Spirit, but no one in the world was indwelt by the Spirit until after Jesus was glorified.

The people here were already indwelt by the Spirit (John 20:22), and were only empowered by the Spirit. And we don't know if they had already been baptized before this or not. Many were baptized by Jesus disciples long before His death, but we don't know who all the 120 in the upper room were, or when any of them were baptized.

Indeed this is interesting, but not for the reason he is trying to get at. Here, the Spirit empowered the Gentiles who were not yet indwelt by the Spirit. They were not yet saved, but they were given the empowerment of tongues and praise. They were saved (and thereby indwelt by the Spirit) when they were baptized in water shortly after they received the empowerment of the Spirit.

What does Biblical belief mean? It means to have faith (trust). According to Heb 11 and James 2:14-26, faith is evidence and substance, it requires action or it is not real. A good example I thought of recently is the scene in the Disney movie Aladdin where Al asks Jasmine, "Do you trust me?", and then held his hand out to her when they were on the top of the roof. If she did not take his hand and jump with him, then she didn't really trust him no matter what she said (and then she would have been caught by the guards much earlier). But if she did trust/have faith in him, then she had to take his hand and jump off the roof with him. Faith without action is meaningless, and will leave us lost. Jesus says that if we trust in Him, then we must surrender to His will, and His will is that we repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), confess Him as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and be baptized (Acts 2:38) in order to receive forgiveness/salvation/the indwelling of the Spirit.

Neither of these passages is talking about what is required to receive salvation. Paul is simply saying that when they were saved they received the Holy Spirit as a pledge, a down payment, a surety of the inheritance we will receive at Judgement.

Peter's speech in Acts 2 is probably not in the Temple. There is no indication in the Text that they moved very far from the upper room in which they were worshiping when the Spirit fell on them. It is probable that they were still standing on the roof of the building of which the upper room was a part (and there is no indication of where in the city that house was located).

For them it was a purification rite, and it is still the same for us today. They were becoming ceremonially clean before participating in worship to God. For us, we are becoming purified from sin so that we can be adopted as a child of God and be part of the bride of Christ.

Jesus is a very special case in all respects. He was God from birth, and the Spirit was with Him from birth. Yet the Spirit came down on Him and empowered Him even further at His baptism. Remember, Jesus didn't do any miraculous works by His own power. He did not know anything that the Spirit did not tell Him, and He did not work miracles by His own power. Just as the Apostles could not work miracles without the empowering of the Spirit, Jesus similarly had only the power of any other human, because He had emptied Himself to the point of being like any other person. I am not discounting His divinity here. He was, is, and always has been and will be, God, and He did not empty Himself of His unity with the Father and Holy Spirit, or His authority. But He did empty Himself of the autonomous usage of His power.

From the moment of salvation, which happens at baptism, not at the moment of belief.

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, this is what we see when "the Spirit is poured out upon" people, or when people are "filled with the Holy Spirit". This is the empowerment for a special purpose, not the indwelling of the Spirit which happens at baptism.

Well, then, my indwelling came when I was a babe at my baptism.... but I never was able to speak in tongues until the 1980s

Why?

 

[Doug Brents]

The verse still states

Acts 16:31 (LEB) — 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

It does not say believe and you will be saved when you are baptized

Correct, it does not say that here. But it also does not tell us in this passage what Paul preached to him when he preached the Gospel to them. But we are told elsewhere that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit removes our sins and unites us with Jesus' resurrection. And again, belief means to have faith, and to have faith requires the actions of obedience that God has said lead to receiving salvation.

Of course, you did. Many in fact

PS there is no water Acts 3:19

Acts 3:19 (LEB) — 19 Therefore repent and turn back, so that your sins may be blotted out,

Correct, there is no water in Acts 3:19, but that is irrelevant. All of the NT Scripture is equally applicable to the NT Christ follower, and so EVERY passage that speaks about what is required to receive salvation is equally applicable at the same time. Thus, repentance is just as important as confession of Jesus which is just as important as baptism to the reception of salvation.

No water in Rom 10:9

The exact same response for Acts 3:19.

Acts 2:38 does not say when they have salvation

Yes, it does. It says that we must be baptized "in order to receive forgiveness of sin". This means that baptism must come BEFORE salvation is received.

And the water did not save Noah and his family, they were saved through the water

Just as we are saved through the water of baptism. It is not the water that does the work; it is the Holy Spirit who takes action while we are in the water to remove our sins and unite us to Christ. But if we don't pass through the water, then we do not encounter the Holy Spirit, and our sins are not removed.

 

[Doug Brents]

Well, then, my indwelling came when I was a babe at my baptism.... but I never was able to speak in tongues until the 1980s

Why?

At what age were you baptized as a "babe"?

 

[Doug Brents]

Everybody.

Slight side trip but on course with the topic.

For what reason can you explain why Jesus was not more specific with Nicodemus when Nick was confused about baptism?

Jesus' comment to him was
"9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

Why would Nick know about baptisms when he knew about Mikveh which is bot the same thing?

Did Jesus lose an opportunity here or did Jesus decide Nick shpould not know?

Nick wasn't confused about baptism. He was confused about Jesus' reference to being born again, hence his question in verse 4, "How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?"
He was thinking about the flesh, but Jesus was talking about the Spirit.

 

[MTMattie]

At what age were you baptized as a "babe"?

I was too young to know.

I can find out because I was given and actual batism certificate signed by the minister and stating I was baptised.
It is locked away with papers to keep so will take a while to find.

I would say I was an infant.

Then the entire church and parents are sworn to raise the child with Christian Values... and come along 12 0r 13 the young teen goes through communicants class and are taught all about Jesus and then they are permitted to join the church when they pass that class and they are all Infront of the congregation, seated and basically asked if they believe in Jesus and his shed blood for our sins.. and so forth and we said I do.. and then are administered our first Holy Communion.

It is said in the West Minster Confession of Faith.... that you are to be baptised only once. It is a sacrement in that church
so that precludes that church anyway from administering it again later.

Under Baptism WCF

4. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.
7. The sacrament of baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.

Here are all of them

1. Baptism is a sacrament of the new testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible church; but also, to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins, and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life. Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in his church until the end of the world.

2. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the gospel, lawfully called thereunto.

3. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.

4. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ, but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.

5. Although it be a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance, yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it; or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.

6. The efficacy of baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in his appointed time.

7. The sacrament of baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.

 

[MTMattie]

Nick wasn't confused about baptism. He was confused about Jesus' reference to being born again, hence his question in verse 4, "How can a person be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb a second time and be born, can he?"
He was thinking about the flesh, but Jesus was talking about the Spirit.

Agreed.... The Spirit.... Because that is where the new birth happens.

But again... If baptism, water is so important, why did not Jesus talk of it?

 

[dwight92070]

No, it is not, because the definition of faith requires action, it demands work (Heb 11:1, James 2:14-26).


[Dwight] Your definition of faith is inadequate. Bible 101 - NO work can save you. But AFTER you're saved, you work to obey Him.
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom. 4:5
So it IS possible to have true Biblical faith WITHOUT doing any work. In fact , it is REQUIRED that you do NO work to be saved, except the work of God. "This is the WORK OF GOD, that you BELIEVE IN HIM whom He sent." John 6:29


Your argument is not Biblical in the least. First off, we would be studying together when you come to believe in Jesus, so your willing believer is sitting with you already. And as Scripture shows, we would immediately go to the nearest water of any description large enough to immerse you into. We would not schedule a time next week, or next month.


[Dwight] Actually, your argument is neither Biblical or practical. When I put my faith in Jesus, I was ALONE, in my barracks room. I was reading the Bible alone. Even if I thought that I had to be baptized immediately, which I didn't because the Bible didn't say that - there was no willing believer available, nor was there any body of water nearby, plus it was at night. Not a time to be out looking for a body of water.


The Bible says NOW, today, this very hour, is the time to be baptized. I would not let you wait until Saturday at 7 pm. I would insist that if you truly believe, that we baptize you right NOW. There is NOTHING more important than insuring you are saved NOW.


[Dwight] Once again, you MISQUOTED the Bible. The Bible nowhere says "NOW, today, this very hour, is the time to be baptized."
What it ACTUALLY says is, "Behold, now is the acceptable time, behold now is the day of salvation." 2 Cor. 6:2
You DON'T see the word "HOUR" or the word "BAPTIZED" there. You added those words and then falsely claim that this is what "the Bible says".

 

[dwight92070]

So how does a prisoner in solitary confinement get saved? He may not even have a Bible. But if he prays and knows enough to know that he should get saved, how is that possible, if he can't leave his cell - since you say baptism is required?

How about a man stranded on an island? He can't baptize himself.

What if an astronaut in a spaceship is so in awe of God's creation, that he prays and asks God to save him? Or even an astronaut in the space station for several months - how are they going to get baptized? Do they have to wait days or months before they can return to earth for God to save them?

How about a hiker who gets lost in the mountains and can't find his way out? He's cold, hungry, and quite sick - so he prays and wants to get right with God - not knowing if he will survive. But there's nobody else there to baptize him, not to mention that there may not be water close by. Not only that, but he's freezing. Even if there was someone there to baptize him - let's say two guys are lost together - it would be foolish to put the freezing man into ice cold water - after all, he's sick already.

The truth is as plain as the nose on your face. While baptism is certainly something we should do if we're already saved, if it's not possible, God is not going to tell you, "Sorry, you weren't baptized when you first believed in that space station - you're destined for hell."

 

[Jim]

So how does a prisoner in solitary confinement get saved? He may not even have a Bible. But if he prays and knows enough to know that he should get saved, how is that possible, if he can't leave his cell - since you say baptism is required?

How about a man stranded on an island? He can't baptize himself.

What if an astronaut in a spaceship is so in awe of God's creation, that he prays and asks God to save him? Or even an astronaut in the space station for several months - how are they going to get baptized? Do they have to wait days or months before they can return to earth for God to save them?

How about a hiker who gets lost in the mountains and can't find his way out? He's cold, hungry, and quite sick - so he prays and wants to get right with God - not knowing if he will survive. But there's nobody else there to baptize him, not to mention that there may not be water close by. Not only that, but he's freezing. Even if there was someone there to baptize him - let's say two guys are lost together - it would be foolish to put the freezing man into ice cold water - after all, he's sick already.

Maybe that is something that we ought to leave up to God. I think He might be able to figure such things out and do the right thing.

The truth is as plain as the nose on your face. While baptism is certainly something we should do if we're already saved, if it's not possible, God is not going to tell you, "Sorry, you weren't baptized when you first believed in that space station - you're destined for hell."

Yes, the truth should be plain as the nose on your face. God said, "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin and your will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." In other words "whoever believes and is baptized will be saved".